Parsis and Hindutva's Ethnic Nationalism in India

[vsdoc]

@vsdoc Thanks for the interesting read Doc

This para struck me as very very important, which is given as a part of conclusion.

Whether a minority is exemplary or threatening has little to do with their actions, rather it is determined by the political requirements of the present and how the demand to be loyal and acculturate has previously been answered. These are rhetorical questions and demands. A hierarchy of minorities is established by remembering a story of loyalty and acculturation that denies each community’s historical specificity. It is a denial of how each person and community came to find themselves in the situation they are today. It is the use of a politically charged remembered story in the guise of a historical understanding.

Look at the first three sentences I colored

This writer is contradicting himself so much !!!!

On one hand he says that them being exemplary or threatening, has nothing to do with their actions. That its political expediency of the present, but then in the same sentence he says how they have answered loyalty and acculturation in past?

Are bhai kehna kya chahte ho? Does he mean to say that, the past is no guarantee of future path? Or the past no longer matters, because of what the writer feels?

Fourth colored sentence - Self contradicting again considering what all has been written above, the Hindutva lot is deciding exactly based on historic specificity isn't it for both groups.

Fifth colored - Same as above.

Started good, but ended with preconceived conclusions I guess. Nothing surprising, post 2014 there have been a surge of such articles.

It was also interesting to see mention of Japanese Americans, in this article. I will say its an insult, considering what happened to them during World War. Maybe some riots which you seem to have mentioned, or some struggles in the past.. other than that, have the Parsis ever faced a fate like them here Doc?

Overall picture seems rosy for Parsis (Except the line about Modi asking Parsis to leave for Iran, and them disagreeing - going by whatever written here is absolute truth) if we by this article Doc? Or is there is something am missing.

Have never had any kind of personal interaction with Parsis till date, being from the South. Whatever heard I have only heard good.

I absolutely agree, and have mentioned in many of my posts on this thread, that the Parsis, though miniscule in number, have never been subservient or passive entities in this complex dance ... much like a stylised mating ritual.

This has been a dance between both sides to find mutually beneficial and mutually acceptable (that each can live with) common ground.

We will always accept and acknowledge our debt to the land and its people and its resident faith for making room for us.

The Hindus on their side have always (aside from a few very basic and reasonable demands) given us complete freedom to practice our faith and live the way we want on this land and among its people.

Do you guys know, that setting up an Imperial Fire (Atash Behram) or even the lower grade Agyari fire is not a simple thing?

The rituals of consecration cannot be done in the presence of a Juddin (non Behdin/Zarthushti).

Each and EVERY Indian Agyari and Atash Behram fire was thus consecrated by the local King allowing and ensuring that no non Zoroastrian would be present within a 25 km radius of the fire during the months leading up to the final cleansing purification and consecration.

This needs to be understood.

This cannot and would not have been possible for any other faith, on any other land.

This is only possible because of a remembered or perceived ancestral bond between the Hindus and the Zoroastrians.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Sharma Ji]

Do you guys know, that setting up an Imperial Fire (Atash Behram) or even the lower grade Agyari fire is not a simple thing?

The rituals of consecration cannot be done in the presence of a Juddin (non Behdin/Zarthushti).

Each and EVERY Indian Agyari and Atash Behram fire was thus consecrated by the local King allowing and ensuring that no non Zoroastrian would be present within a 25 km radius of the fire during the months leading up to the final cleansing purification and consecration.

This needs to be understood.

Modi Ji ne ek speech me yehi bataya tha

that's how I know

Cheers, Sharma

 

[vsdoc]

Modi Ji ne ek speech me yehi bataya tha

that's how I know

Cheers, Sharma

And no @indushek Modi did not ask us to go to Iran.

A full protocol of Iranians, top guys, with their Ayotollah types had come over to India.

Had a meeting with top Parsis.

Asked Parsis if they wanted to return and what Iran could do to help them.

That is the background. I've written about it on the old forum. Will dig it up or a photo.

Cheers, Doc

 

[indushek]

I absolutely agree, and have mentioned in many of my posts on this thread, that the Parsis, though miniscule in number, have never been subservient or passive entities in this complex dance ... much like a stylised mating ritual.

This has been a dance between both sides to find mutually beneficial and mutually acceptable (that each can live with) common ground.

We will always accept and acknowledge our debt to the land and its people and its resident faith for making room for us.

The Hindus on their side have always (aside from a few very basic and reasonable demands) given us complete freedom to practice our faith and live the way we want on this land and among its people.

Do you guys know, that setting up an Imperial Fire (Atash Behram) or even the lower grade Agyari fire is not a simple thing?

The rituals of consecration cannot be done in the presence of a Juddin (non Behdin/Zarthushti).

Each and EVERY Indian Agyari and Atash Behram fire was thus consecrated by the local King allowing and ensuring that no non Zoroastrian would be present within a 25 km radius of the fire during the months leading up to the final cleansing purification and consecration.

This needs to be understood.

This cannot and would not have been possible for any other faith, on any other land.

This is only possible because of a remembered or perceived ancestral bond between the Hindus and the Zoroastrians.

Cheers, Doc

Have no idea on all these you mentioned, will take time to read sometime Doc.

Overall though, I agree. It is how things should be, a community that has only enhanced this country should be well accommodated and respected for their achievements.

At this point accommodated, might sound disrespectful. You lot are but Hindus (if you don't think am being a Sanghi lol, which am not. I mean it as sons of soil, rather than any religious connotation by that term. Haven't been close to a Sanghi sevak meet ever, not even few kilometers. Guess this disclaimer has to be given these days, for satisfaction to few.) by now practically, if we go by the definition given by Hindutva lot. People loyal to land and all

 

[r3alist]

@vsdoc Thanks for the interesting read Doc

This para struck me as very very important, which is given as a part of conclusion.

Whether a minority is exemplary or threatening has little to do with their actions, rather it is determined by the political requirements of the present and how the demand to be loyal and acculturate has previously been answered. These are rhetorical questions and demands. A hierarchy of minorities is established by remembering a story of loyalty and acculturation that denies each community’s historical specificity. It is a denial of how each person and community came to find themselves in the situation they are today. It is the use of a politically charged remembered story in the guise of a historical understanding.

Look at the first three sentences I colored

This writer is contradicting himself so much !!!!

On one hand he says that them being exemplary or threatening, has nothing to do with their actions. That its political expediency of the present, but then in the same sentence he says how they have answered loyalty and acculturation in past?

Are bhai kehna kya chahte ho? Does he mean to say that, the past is no guarantee of future path? Or the past no longer matters, because of what the writer feels?

Fourth colored sentence - Self contradicting again considering what all has been written above, the Hindutva lot is deciding exactly based on historic specificity isn't it for both groups.

Fifth colored - Same as above.

Started good, but ended with preconceived conclusions I guess. Nothing surprising, post 2014 there have been a surge of such articles.

It was also interesting to see mention of Japanese Americans, in this article. I will say its an insult, considering what happened to them during World War. Maybe some riots which you seem to have mentioned, or some struggles in the past.. other than that, have the Parsis ever faced a fate like them here Doc?

Overall picture seems rosy for Parsis (Except the line about Modi asking Parsis to leave for Iran, and them disagreeing - going by whatever written here is absolute truth) if we by this article Doc? Or is there is something am missing.

Have never had any kind of personal interaction with Parsis till date, being from the South. Whatever heard I have only heard good.

I am glad you said this, I didn't want to be too unkind but the conclusion was incoherent.

I note the name of the author is someone not from India, so you have to take this into account. they will likely get some high level observations right but will always be written as an outsider who misses the things that those in the region will pick up on, there is I believe such are different overarching societal, historic and cultural difference that a poor student will struggle to grasp.

 

[vsdoc]

Have no idea on all these you mentioned, will take time to read sometime Doc.

Overall though, I agree. It is how things should be, a community that has only enhanced this country should be well accommodated and respected for their achievements.

At this point accommodated, might sound disrespectful. You lot are but Hindus (if you don't think am being a Sanghi lol, which am not. I mean it as sons of soil, rather than any religious connotation by that term. Haven't been close to a Sanghi sevak meet ever, not even few kilometers. Guess this disclaimer has to be given these days, for satisfaction to few.) by now practically, if we go by the definition given by Hindutva lot. People loyal to land and all

Do you know that when vsdoc was a Sanghi, on the old forum, he was the firmest believer in the concept of Cultural Civilizational Oneness that the BJP and Sangh's OFFICIAL manifestos of Hindutva once proclaimed.

Advani included.

@Joe Shearer do you remember those?

The same ones that morphed to religious Hindus ONLY post 2014.

Hence my violent and very radical switch.

Cheers, Doc

 

[indushek]

I am glad you said this, I didn't want to be too unkind but the conclusion was incoherent.

I note the name of the author is someone not from India, so you have to take this into account. they will likely get some high level observations right but will always be written as an outsider who misses the things that those in the region will pick up on, there is I believe such are different overarching societal, historic and cultural difference that a poor student will struggle to grasp.

While I agree that, in general a person not being from this land, might get few things wrong.. I however disagree about a incoherent conclusion, on the basis of effort to drive home his agenda on part of the writer.

His attempt is clear, he wants to say that there is a far right party, that is basing its ideology on political expediency. I feel he uses one minority against other, to attempt at showing said ideology's flaw.

Now I feel that, he has come short on this by drawing self contradicting conclusion. Others can feel other way

Do you know that when vsdoc was a Sanghi, on the old forum, he was the firmest believer in the concept of Cultural Civilizational Oneness that the BJP and Sangh's OFFICIAL manifestos of Hindutva once proclaimed.

Advani included.

@Joe Shearer do you remember those?

The same ones that morphed to religious Hindus ONLY post 2014.

Hence my violent and very radical switch.

Cheers, Doc

Well for me it has always been the same, whoever lives on this land (legally) irrespective of their religious belief is one on cultural basis.

How much of that bolded part, is driven by action and by media Doc? The first five years have been one thing, and the second five that continues another. Am curious, since you say you switched.

 

[Sharma Ji]

the firmest believer in the concept of Cultural Civilizational Oneness

I do !

outflanked Manavan and crew from the right even.

fir U-trun bhi yaad hai.

 

[vsdoc]

While I agree that, in general a person not being from this land, might get few things wrong.. I however disagree about a incoherent conclusion, on the basis of effort to drive home his agenda on part of the writer.

His attempt is clear, he wants to say that there is a far right party, that is basing its ideology on political expediency. I feel he uses one minority against other, to attempt at showing said ideology's flaw.

Now I feel that, he has come short on this by drawing self contradicting conclusion. Others can feel other way


Well for me it has always been the same, whoever lives on this land (legally) irrespective of their religious belief is one on cultural basis.

How much of that bolded part, is driven by action and by media Doc? The first five years have been one thing, and the second five that continues another. Am curious, since you say you switched.

There is a very clever game being played.

One at the level of the government.

And one at the social level.

Abled and facilitated by government machinery. With full plausible deniability.

Not the thread. PLEASE.

Cheers, Doc

I do !

outflanked Manavan and crew from the right even.

fir U-trun bhi yaad hai.

Kids.

Bade aaye hain humko desh bhakti sikhane.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Joe Shearer]

@vsdoc
Seemed clear enough to me. Does not, emphatically, demand a denial of agency on the part of the Parsis to understand the point. Parsis knew what they were doing, grasped the elements of change, and actively embraced the needed change in their positions. Nobody, least of all the author of the paper, has denied that.
What the author did say was that today's ranking and positioning is not dependent on what each had done, but on what each had to say, or show, in response to the interrogation of the majority. Not their (monority) actions, but what they were saying about themselves.
If more clarity is needed, happy to oblige after I get home again.

 

[r3alist]

I agree that, in general a person not being from this land, might get few things wrong.. I however disagree about a incoherent conclusion, on the basis of effort to drive home his agenda on part of the writer.

His attempt is clear, he wants to say that there is a far right party, that is basing its ideology on political expediency. I feel he uses one minority against other, to attempt at showing said ideology's flaw.

Now I feel that, he has come short on this by drawing self contradicting conclusion. Others can feel other way

Ok I reread it and I agree that's his conclusion.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Do you know that when vsdoc was a Sanghi, on the old forum, he was the firmest believer in the concept of Cultural Civilizational Oneness that the BJP and Sangh's OFFICIAL manifestos of Hindutva once proclaimed.

Advani included.

@Joe Shearer do you remember those?

The same ones that morphed to religious Hindus ONLY post 2014.

Hence my violent and very radical switch.

Cheers, Doc

I don't know about morphed. It was collective dissimulation in the face of collective hostility, abandoned when no longer useful.

 

[vsdoc]

@vsdoc
Seemed clear enough to me. Does not, emphatically, demand a denial of agency on the part of the Parsis to understand the point. Parsis knew what they were doing, grasped the elements of change, and actively embraced the needed change in their positions. Nobody, least of all the author of the paper, has denied that.
What the author did say was that today's ranking and positioning is not dependent on what each had done, but on what each had to say, or show, in response to the interrogation of the majority. Not their (monority) actions, but what they were saying about themselves.
If more clarity is needed, happy to oblige after I get home again.

Precisely.

We have never denied our romance with Aapri Raani.

Most old Parsi homes, including a few of mine, will have ancient frames of the Monarch.

We are the first to pull each others' legs violently about this and laugh about it.

But if an outsider calls us a collaborator, then he WILL be shown his place and what his own did, long before the Parsis arrived on the islands of Mumbai. When we were still pastoralists in Gujarat. In fact being hunted by the same Muslim forces that were abetted and welcomed by certain famous and now much revered (militarily) Hindu groups.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Joe Shearer]

There is a very clever game being played.

One at the level of the government.

And one at the social level.

Abled and facilitated by government machinery. With full plausible deniability.

Palpable, and visible.

All right, not here, you are right, has to be separated from this issue.

 

[indushek]

There is a very clever game being played.

One at the level of the government.

And one at the social level.

Abled and facilitated by government machinery. With full plausible deniability.

Not the thread. PLEASE.

Cheers, Doc


Kids.

Bade aaye hain humko desh bhakti sikhane.

Cheers, Doc

I was reading about new rulers taking over, from old rulers and then try to defame the old ones (ideologies, symbols etc). I always wondered why? Why is there a need to do that?


But yes, this is not the thread for that.