PTI News, Updates and Discussion

[Forsvaret]

His hanging will not save Pakistan. His return to politics will also not save Pakistan because he (or at least his representatives) has demonstrated that he will compromise the security of the nation for his political agenda.

Military establishment put popular Sheikh Mujeeb in prison, then they put popular Bhutto in prison, and now they put popular Imran in prison—ALL in the name of "security" of the nation. Ever wondered why this only happens in Pakistan and how it actually benefits no one but the military establishment itself?!

 

[Oscar]

You keep saying how Imran Khan / PTI trapped themselves. If they’re trapped, how come military establishment with all their PDM support, media support, judiciary are simply unable to take Pakistan out of their self-inflicted quagmire? The fact of the matter is that it’s Imran Khan who has trapped military establishment by choosing to remain in prison, by choosing not to cut any kind of deal with them, by choosing to resist whatever they’re trying to do with Pakistan going forward.

Technically IK is the octupus the military establishment was not aware of when trying to install/eat and could not swallow it but cannot get it out either.

It is rare for them to admit “defeat” when it comes to a politician so they will continue to try whatever their interpretation of a strategy is. Unfortunately there is another aspect of it being missed which is you not only do not have the brightest in charge at this point but also those advisors around them aren’t honest either.

Its the typical “Emperors new clothes” story that ironically IK also succumbed to.

 

[Oscar]

Most Pakistanis see themselves as farishta, but if we all reflect on our pasts, none of us is truly duudh ka dhula.

If we can all accept that including gauging “leadership” based on that. It would make for much better dialogue and discussion. More so it would make more realistic solutions instead of populist claims like “bringing back looted money”. However, that brings the question of democracy in Pakistan z
If populist claims are what is needed to sway opinion and 5 second tik toks work - do the people of Pakistan with their level of education and awareness still really need true democracy?

Is the vote of a published academic the same as that of an individual who is on the streets with no education and a heroin addict? But is brought onto buses to vote for a plate of Biryani?

I have conflicting opinions about this which is why when we talk to democracy and IK or SS - it’s a very slippery slope in rights vs competence vs justice.

 

[VCheng]

do the people of Pakistan with their level of education and awareness still really need true democracy?

The saddest part is that that very realization perversely works to ensure that those in power have an interest in keeping the people uneducated and unaware. And they act on ensuring precisely that, regardless of what they may say.

 

[Forsvaret]

…do the people of Pakistan with their level of education and awareness still really need true democracy?

Why worry about "true" democracy (western liberal one) when Pakistanis don’t even have a basic democracy (the power to vote into government who they actually want—unlike what the military establishment wants)?

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

@Forsvaret

what is democracy?!!!!

please explain in few words, I wish to understand, you claim you can understand truth about democracy!

please fill me in about your perspective

 

[SaadH]

Taliban movement is an offshoot of global Afghan Jihad movement left behind by US and Saudi Arabia after the fall of Soviet Union.

Not quite, Taliban rose to power in '94 in the aftermath of the civil war amongst various Mujahideen groups that created complete chaos and anarchy following Soviet withdrawal. They were organic movement started to provide security and protection in the midst of lawlessness with various warlords run amok, but were quickly co-opted by foreign patrons, namely ISI (Benazir's Interior Minister and retd. Gen. Naseerullah Babar claimed them as "his babies") and made rapid advancement soon after finally taking over in 1994. None of it's leadership had any presence, involvement or influence in the mujahideen groups.

There's no connection between mujahideen of 80's and Taliban.

 

[Forsvaret]

what is democracy?!!!!

There are many types of democracies in the world but their key aspect is the same: 'rule by the people'. Whether it’s done more directly (as in Switzerland with their direct democracy) or indirectly through elected representatives (as in rest of the Western world with their representative democracy) — this key democratic principle of 'self-rule' is never violated as it frequently happens in Pakistan.

Types of democracy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

@Forsvaret

not judging you!

but I asked you to share your observation, so, that I can understand your episteme depth!

instead, I was provided, wikileak link!

sorry, to be straight forward, you sound intellectual but not very open!

 

[Forsvaret]

instead, I was provided, wikileak link!

You asked for 'what is democracy'?
Short answer: 'Rule by the people'
Long answer: Read the Wikipedia link I provided above as it summarizes the many different types of democracies in the world.
And if you wanna know what kind of "democracy" Pakistan is, it’s also provided in that link:

Guided democracy, also called directed democracy and managed democracy, is a formally democratic government that functions as a de facto authoritarian government or, in some cases, as an autocratic government. Such hybrid regimes are legitimized by elections, but do not change the state's policies, motives, and goals.

Guided democracy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Meengla]

@Forsvaret

what is democracy?!!!!
please explain in few words, I wish to understand, you claim you can understand truth about democracy!
please fill me in about your perspective

As @PakAl , who doesn't seem totally against Imran, himself said above that Imran was not allowed to throw throw out the Non Confidence Motion in April 2022 because that was 'against the law', then what is 'democracy' to Imran?? OMG, there is incontrovertible evidence out there in the archives of Dawn.com from the six months leading to the NCM where Imran was trying hard to get the military to help him regain the majority.
Who are these expats kidding about Imran's democratic 'credentials'? Just because he was able to sold the Anti American 'Chooran' to the gullible Pakistanis for a year, he gained the 'support' so now it is about 'democracy'?? And I tell you without a shred of doubt: Should he be given the power back, in just a few months people will despise him again because such is the nature of being an 'incumbent'. But Pakistan can't afford another period of political anarchy given Pakistan's dire external and internal threats. Enough of the God-damn drama of the music chair since Zia's death in 1988. Enough of that and enough said on that!

 

[Oscar]

Not quite, Taliban rose to power in '94 in the aftermath of the civil war amongst various Mujahideen groups that created complete chaos and anarchy following Soviet withdrawal. They were organic movement started to provide security and protection in the midst of lawlessness with various warlords run amok, but were quickly co-opted by foreign patrons, namely ISI (Benazir's Interior Minister and retd. Gen. Naseerullah Babar claimed them as "his babies") and made rapid advancement soon after finally taking over in 1994. None of it's leadership had any presence, involvement or influence in the mujahideen groups.

There's no connection between mujahideen of 80's and Taliban.

Once again - that is incorrect.
The Taliban are the product of the Afghan war and had many senior leaders drawn from former Mujahideen. You can go to the EARLIEST news sources and it will corroborate this.
Yes, the majority were all young Afghan(or even some FATA tribal plants) who were tired of the constant chaos and inspired by preachers of which Mullah Omar was a known one - regarding Sharia being a solution to the chaos.

I simply do not understand how one can disconnect the Afghan war, the resulting chaos along combination of loyalties and weariness of various mujahideen under warlords - and say the Taliban would have happened regardless and they had no contact or influence or ever knew what mujahideen looked like.

That is like saying a child who saw cricketers constantly in his village growing up - heard about cricket - but his becoming a cricketer had nothing to do with any of those people or cricket in general.

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

@Forsvaret

frankly dear, Im too duffer to understand wikipedia or dictionary definition of democracy!
(if there was any!)

as i understand, democracy is the ruling system chosen by the people who have a intellectual class among their masses!


intellectual class as against to, pseudo intellectuals like we have, educated illiterate!

so, which ever democracy you give us, its fate is already decided!

question of having intellect comes with the ability to create/generate assets, without which system cannot exist or cannot be/become prosperous!

sorry, you failed my expectations!

 

[Forsvaret]

As @PakAl , who doesn't seem totally against Imran, himself said above that Imran was not allowed to throw throw out the Non Confidence Motion in April 2022 because that was 'against the law'…

What Imran Khan did during VONC was "against the law" — but the way his party’s MNAs were made to switch their loyalties in PDM’s favor — was it really in "accordance with the law"? I am not saying what Imran Khan did at that time was right. But that also doesn’t make the conduct of those PTI MNAs who switched loyalties on establishment’s nod any better.

 

[Oscar]

Why worry about "true" democracy (western liberal one) when Pakistanis don’t even have a basic democracy (the power to vote into government who they actually want—unlike what the military establishment wants)?

You can satisfy your need to diss the establishment and by all means do. But you do realize that adds nothing to the overall issue of democracy in Pakistan regardless of what state or stage or manner it is in.
The question is literacy, its impact on being able to elect the right candidates and then whether that even enables basic democracy at all?

After all, if this basic democracy can be manipulated by a plate of biryani then it isnt really democracy is it?

So what is the argument on implementing?

Either way, it comes back to the problem of Imran Khan vs Imran Khan because his actions alienated a lot of his educated supporters but he himself overruled democracy within his party as well.
What merit or support did Buzdar have? Nothing, just one "dictators" wish based on the whims of his wife.