Babur-Class (MILGEM) Corvette | Updates & Discussion

studsmart said:
When will babur be equipped with ssm and ask chopper?
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Nobody knows. It lacks SSM, asw chopper and also there is no CIWS / PDMS yet.

Same story with Batch-II yarmooks, empty vessels without any gear.

F-22P's FM-90 & C-802s pose no threat. Needs to be upgraded with HHQ-10s, SMASH. OR CAMM-er if VLS is feasible.

So right now, PN only have Tughrils which are appropriately armed including C302s (best Anti-ship missile in PN's arsenal).

I have heard arguments by many that suggests that PN's surface fleet isn't for war fighting. Well, it is. We have spend billions of dollars on these surface vessels. Ofcourse these surface fleet won't go to war on its own but its part of whole strategy and Yes submarine force will be main element but for now we only have 3 subs in which 1 sub is unavailable as its undergoing upgrades. So PN should show urgency and equip all surface platforms available with proper gear. Lack of funds can be the issue but we all know next encounter could involve navies in actual combat.
 
bravo_1 said:
What are the options if there is any money? For choppers
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would be interesting if we navalised the 139, but perhaps itll be 101 or wildcat based (hopefully not on the latter). Or we buy S70s and get them converted
 
Ak01 said:
would be interesting if we navalised the 139, but perhaps itll be 101 or wildcat based (hopefully not on the latter). Or we buy S70s and get them converted
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Wouldn't the super puma is best fit for replacing the aging fleet of sea king helis?
 
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puttputt said:
The PN won't be putting the corvettes and frigates in a situation where they'd need to expend every single one of their SAMs, though. That was my point. The PN isn't going to rely on these ships for war-fighting far from Pakistani shores. During a full-scale war, they'll primarily serve as responsive ASW platforms within the PAF's coverage layers. Basically, the frigates and corvettes won't be the primary source of anything in a full-scale war. That's not their job. Their job is to ensure Pakistan's maritime security in the ambiguous phases, such as high-tension situations where, potentially, an IN warship, submarine, or FAC could try something to pull points and force an escalatory issue.

Also, much of the high cost of the B/J-Class has to do with the AAW suite itself. It and the engines are the only major Western inputs involved; otherwise, the rest is of Turkish and domestic origin.
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Again, the notion that PNs frigates and corvettes will be shielded from full pitched naval combat is speculation on the internet gleened from conclusions drawn by their capabilities. Its sorry to say a fanciful notion at best. The primary role of anti-ship may indeed by the submarine force followed by air power, but the primary air defense of the coast and submarine/surface fleet is the responsiblity of the surface fleet itself. The reality is PAF will have its hands full with IAF in a full war. What we saw in May was not the full conflict with all the IAFs power and number brought to bear. While PAF may well (and in the current environment probably will) come out ahead, its numbers will be needed to focus 95% on IAF. Remeber there is 1 dedicated squadron for collaboration with PN and its job is anti-ship and air combat. It will be less than useless against INs main weapon (Brahmos). That is the role of surface air defense. Sadly Pakistan as a whole and PN in particular is sorely lacking in this regard. And when PAF assets are occupied or neutralized by Rafale, Mig-29 and Barak-8 (remember INs air arm is larger than the squadron for PN), PN subs and PN ASW aicraft will be quickly eliminated by P-8s, ASW choppers, frigates and destroyers. In short PAF doesnt have enough assets to protect the mainland AND navy in a full scale war. The Frigates and Corvettes will absolutely see full combat in such a scenario. As such, these ships would likely need to utilitize 2-3 missiles per Brahmos and will likely face saturation attacks from IN ships and aircraft. Frankly if equipped properly and utilized in effective protective formations, could comport themselves quite well.

Frankly im not super concerned that ships are sailing without AShM on board during peactime, so long as we actually have the missiles available when war comes. If they are ready to be equipped at a moments notice than its whatever. But the worry is does PN even have the weapons in hand to do so. My suspicion is that the recent spat of NOTAMS where we didnt really see any ballistic missile testing news was in fact weapons integration trials for Baburs and Yarmooks. So hopefully PN is equipped.

But the cost of upgrading to a proper air defense loadout isnt as daunting as people are making it out to be. Replacing 12 cells of GWS.26 with two 4 cell MDAS (8 cell total) for quad packing CAMM-ER, would probably run $15-20M per ship (estimated on Netherlands 2023 purchase of eight 8 cell strike length Mk-41 VLS systemsfor $110M). 2 ships are still under construction and probably wont even need refit but can be loaded out at this stage with MDAS if turkey has enough units to sell. Howrver JCF should be acquired with MDAS from scratch. 8 or 12 cells minimum. The Turgrails should be refit with HQ-16FE for long range air cover while Baburs and Yarmook 2s (which could retain GWS.26 can be used for medium range and anti-missile defense against Brahmos). F-22P could be refit with MDAS (like thai Naresuans we with MK-41) BUT if that is too financially daunting, refit them with 20 cell Goksurs (15km range) - 2.5x more missiles than FM-90 and upgrade them with CENK-400 and GENESIS Advent CMS. 4 Formations of Turgrails (with 32 HQ-16FE) flanked by a Babur (32 CAMM-ER, with either Gokdeniz or 20 cell Goksur) and F-22P (20 cell Goksurs) and 2 AIP subs will form effective battle groups to defend Pakistans coasts from shipping and aerial/missile threats allowing PN air assets to hunt subs while Yamrooks and Azmats can be used for closer in litoral defense.
 
Tank131 said:
Again, the notion that PNs frigates and corvettes will be shielded from full pitched naval combat is speculation on the internet gleened from conclusions drawn by their capabilities. Its sorry to say a fanciful notion at best. The primary role of anti-ship may indeed by the submarine force followed by air power, but the primary air defense of the coast and submarine/surface fleet is the responsiblity of the surface fleet itself. The reality is PAF will have its hands full with IAF in a full war. What we saw in May was not the full conflict with all the IAFs power and number brought to bear. While PAF may well (and in the current environment probably will) come out ahead, its numbers will be needed to focus 95% on IAF. Remeber there is 1 dedicated squadron for collaboration with PN and its job is anti-ship and air combat. It will be less than useless against INs main weapon (Brahmos). That is the role of surface air defense. Sadly Pakistan as a whole and PN in particular is sorely lacking in this regard. And when PAF assets are occupied or neutralized by Rafale, Mig-29 and Barak-8 (remember INs air arm is larger than the squadron for PN), PN subs and PN ASW aicraft will be quickly eliminated by P-8s, ASW choppers, frigates and destroyers. In short PAF doesnt have enough assets to protect the mainland AND navy in a full scale war. The Frigates and Corvettes will absolutely see full combat in such a scenario. As such, these ships would likely need to utilitize 2-3 missiles per Brahmos and will likely face saturation attacks from IN ships and aircraft. Frankly if equipped properly and utilized in effective protective formations, could comport themselves quite well.

Frankly im not super concerned that ships are sailing without AShM on board during peactime, so long as we actually have the missiles available when war comes. If they are ready to be equipped at a moments notice than its whatever. But the worry is does PN even have the weapons in hand to do so. My suspicion is that the recent spat of NOTAMS where we didnt really see any ballistic missile testing news was in fact weapons integration trials for Baburs and Yarmooks. So hopefully PN is equipped.

But the cost of upgrading to a proper air defense loadout isnt as daunting as people are making it out to be. Replacing 12 cells of GWS.26 with two 4 cell MDAS (8 cell total) for quad packing CAMM-ER, would probably run $15-20M per ship (estimated on Netherlands 2023 purchase of eight 8 cell strike length Mk-41 VLS systemsfor $110M). 2 ships are still under construction and probably wont even need refit but can be loaded out at this stage with MDAS if turkey has enough units to sell. Howrver JCF should be acquired with MDAS from scratch. 8 or 12 cells minimum. The Turgrails should be refit with HQ-16FE for long range air cover while Baburs and Yarmook 2s (which could retain GWS.26 can be used for medium range and anti-missile defense against Brahmos). F-22P could be refit with MDAS (like thai Naresuans we with MK-41) BUT if that is too financially daunting, refit them with 20 cell Goksurs (15km range) - 2.5x more missiles than FM-90 and upgrade them with CENK-400 and GENESIS Advent CMS. 4 Formations of Turgrails (with 32 HQ-16FE) flanked by a Babur (32 CAMM-ER, with either Gokdeniz or 20 cell Goksur) and F-22P (20 cell Goksurs) and 2 AIP subs will form effective battle groups to defend Pakistans coasts from shipping and aerial/missile threats allowing PN air assets to hunt subs while Yamrooks and Azmats can be used for closer in litoral defense.
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If what you say is correct, then the PN will trim its Jinnah-class order to at most 2 ships... It's either that, or, the B-Class and J-Class will not be part of any "full-pitched naval combat" where the PN can avoid one using those ships. The only ones doing any of the serious naval combat are the boats, the SIlent Service.

BTW, no amount of ASW is going to "quickly eliminate" the submarine threat. This applies to both the IN and the PN which, again, is why the B-Class and J-Class will, in a real war, be relegated back closer to shore to reinforce the ASW coverage net. ASW is very difficult to pull off, especially when the AOR and potential threat environment is big. To the PN's advantage, at least, it has less space (so to speak) to defend than the IN, thereby, less (but still a lot) of an area to densify (which it will with improvements to the SOSUS as well as new ASW helis, MALE UAVs, and, in time, USVs and AUVs).

Hence, the PN's goal is to leverage the larger boat fleet to keep the IN's ships away from Pakistan's EEZ and SLOCs by moving those same boats much farther out at sea. IN will have to choose: send resources to try hunting down those boats (finding isolated boats in the sea is a very, very difficult undertaking to begin with), or expose themselves to said boats by trying to mount an incursion into Pakistani waters (where other boats, like the smaller SWATS will be present).
 
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rumoured maniac said:
How can you guys even think of that after what happened with the T-129? Wishful thinking is fine, but it should have its limits.
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why was the T129 not given export permits?

would you extend wishful thinking to LM2500 GT's too?

I would avoid embarrassing yourself and sit this one out
 
rumoured maniac said:
How can you guys even think of that after what happened with the T-129? Wishful thinking is fine, but it should have its limits.
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Because shuttling in a dozen civilian aircraft and then off-market customizing them isn't a big deal. It's what we did with the Lineage 1000E, and we'll do it again for the T-70i, or heck, the Polish-built S-70i, or heck, surplus S-70s, for a decent ASW solution.
 
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