PAF F-16 | Discussions

[hnn]

First impressions and all that. But once bitten twice shy. Regardless of most of what could be offered on the V to Pakistan being technologically “redundant” to Chinese wants - what has been enshrined in congressional memory cannot be erased overnight save for El Trumperino’s override.

Agreed again, hence the question, why not go forward with the original plan? Now that our near neighbors have the same tech (if not better) than the ones we cheated on? We cheated with a purpose, has the time not come yet for the divorce?

 

[Oscar]

Yes we are thinking along the same lines except for J-10s. We currently operates 1+ squardon strength of each F-16C/D and J-10CE. I think while another squardon of F-16 Block 72 is sensible but so is another squadron of J-10. One of the main reason I'm in favor of more J-10s is that over the next two decades the margin of evolution (both software + hardware) on J-10 is more than on Block 72 (mostly software now).

Over the next two decades, even before 5th Gen becomes more common worldwide there will be a lot of evolution in radars, EW, and weapons system. I'm skeptic about how much of that evolution in the hardware will Block 72 be able to absorb compared to J-10. While this wouldn't make Block 72 obsolete per se but the capability advantage will favor the J-10 more.

Another thing here that I'm considering is, though it's a gamble, the PLAA exercises in recent times very strongly suggest that China may have an operational Networked Fire Control System - one very strong indicator for that capability present in these exercises is the "silent shooter" - so in theory, given Pakistan is already operating Chinese aircraft and ADS, there exists the possibility of dipping our toes in CEC with lessar integration hurdle (dependent on our acquisition of KJ-500 and of course Chinese willingness and approval to share/export the relevant tech).

I missed the J-10s but it still comes down to number of variants. Ideally the J-10Cs come in sooner in numbers rather than later otherwise their relevance may be more to perhaps act as the 4.5 gen backbone then the F-16s get phased out in their overall entirety.

Nothing prevents the PAF from having 5 types but it does become a logistical burden.
You need a heavier 5th gen and there is a commitment to the Kaan.
You are committing to a PFX -
You are committing to a J-35
You have a strong “core” -top end backbone of F-16s which need both upgrades and replacement
You have a core of JF-17 block 1s and 2s which need upgrades and replacements.

And you have this backlog of jalopy F-7PGs and Mirages that need replacing.

 

[Oscar]

Agreed again, hence the question, why not go forward with the original plan? Now that our near neighbors have the same tech (if not better) than the ones we cheated on? We cheated with a purpose, has the time not come yet for the divorce?

You never burn bridges in diplomacy.
It is the act of the immature or utterly powerless. Pakistan isn’t yet the latter despite the best efforts of many of its leaders and citizens.

 

[hnn]

You never burn bridges in diplomacy.
It is the act of the immature or utterly powerless. Pakistan isn’t yet the latter despite the best efforts of many of its leaders and citizens.

Expected nothing less from you. Fair point, while other are still stuck on misinterpreting "play" for "mod" - Anyhow, I'm not talking about burning bridges here. I'm opining leverage - sovereign diplomacy can use the excuse of doctrine to divorce (or threaten to) without burning bridges per se. After all even in 2006, one of DoD's main reason (as put in front of the congress) was to steer us away from Chinese influence.

I missed the J-10s but it still comes down to number of variants. Ideally the J-10Cs come in sooner in numbers rather than later otherwise their relevance may be more to perhaps act as the 4.5 gen backbone then the F-16s get phased out in their overall entirety.

Nothing prevents the PAF from having 5 types but it does become a logistical burden.
You need a heavier 5th gen and there is a commitment to the Kaan.
You are committing to a PFX -
You are committing to a J-35
You have a strong “core” -top end backbone of F-16s which need both upgrades and replacement
You have a core of JF-17 block 1s and 2s which need upgrades and replacements.

And you have this backlog of jalopy F-7PGs and Mirages that need replacing.

The number of variants and logistical burden, I totally agree with. However, KAAN still has time (or am I mistaken? It's been some time since I updated myself on its progress) - and J-10s coming sooner is what I'm suggesting. Ideally IMO there has to be at least 6 Frontline squadrons with 3:3 or 4:2 (J10:F-16V) for the next decade - I'm only concerned about the operational restrictions on F-system, otherwise there's not much between it and J-10 for the next 10 years (by which time perhaps 5th Gen will be the core focus for PAF)

 

[SiliconBit (silicon0000)]

F-16V in PAF colors seems like daydreaming. That's Taiwan's most advanced fighter jet and the backbone of their air force, and thinking it in the hands of Pakistan is unrealistic.

 

[rafale]

they didnt even modify- they tried to maintain w/o contractor support.

Which is funny in this particular case of working on engines.......anyone who has worked with any turbo machinery knows the rules of keeping a sanitized work place to exactly prevent shit like spanners and bolts being left inside engine from happening.

I remember, every time one of our turbines (power generation) needed major overhaul/inspection and casing was opened to expose the turbine rotor, there would be strict compliance and only authorized personnel allowed inside the work area.......because more often than not we heard stories from other plants where a disgruntled employee left a lose nut or key in the rotor.......or simply some stupid mistake of items falling inside the turbine casing before closing it up.

 

[Oscar]

Which is funny in this particular case of working on engines.......anyone who has worked with any turbo machinery knows the rules of keeping a sanitized work place to exactly prevent shit like spanners and bolts being left inside engine from happening.

I remember, every time one of our turbines (power generation) needed major overhaul/inspection and casing was opened to expose the turbine rotor, there would be strict compliance and only authorized personnel allowed inside the work area.......because more often than not we heard stories from other plants where a disgruntled employee left a lose nut or key in the rotor.......or simply some stupid mistake of items falling inside the turbine casing before closing it up.

Considering you lost a F-16 because someone used a mirage nut vs one specific from supplier for F-16 - there is good reason.

 

[Trailer23]

Did anyone post this?

Apologies if someone has (already).

Other than Godi Media going bezerk on the matter, you guys outta listen to a couple of guys that do have technical knowledge - and have flown in the Viper.

Yeah..., they are obviously biased. Explains why they're still alive in Lynch Land.

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[Khanivore]

Did anyone post this?

Apologies if someone has (already).

Other than Godi Media going bezerk on the matter, you guys outta listen to a couple of guys that do have technical knowledge - and have flown in the Viper.

Yeah..., they are obviously biased. Explains why they're still alive in Lynch Land.

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For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

​

Interesting video. Silly video thumbnail tho. Their technical commentary is mostly respectful of the platform and (at times) of the Pakistan Air Force’s competence, they repeatedly call the PAF “extremely capable,” “incredibly skilled,” and treat the F-16 as a serious threat system. That part doesn’t read like cartoonish chest-thumping.

But their behavioral framing toward Pakistan is clearly adversarial and smug in a few places as per usual:

• They talk about Pakistan as a “problem object,” not a country with interests. Lines like “continued headache for us” set a tone where Pakistan’s capability is framed as an annoyance that needs managing, not something to understand neutrally.
• There’s casual, snide insinuation about Pakistan-US politics. “Field marshal Munir made friends with the US president… and the PAF got this upgrade” is presented like a wink-wink transactional payoff. That may be plausible as political analysis, but the delivery is more sneer than evidence-led.
• They slip into triumphal/loose claims without care. “India’s knocked down a few on the ground,” “I think we knocked one of them out… we don’t know,” etc. Saying contested things as if they’re basically settled (then half-walking it back) is a tell of partisan posture rather than analyst discipline.
• They use humor to belittle rather than illuminate. The “IMF paying Lockheed?” / “dole” bit is a cheap laugh at Pakistan’s finances. It’s not overt hate, but it is derisive — the kind of jab that signals “we’re above them.”
• They treat escalation like sports commentary at times. The vibe is “threat scoreboard” more than “war is serious.” That’s common in nationalist defense media, but it’s still a tone choice.

So my frank read: they’re not rabidly anti-Pakistan, and they do credit Pakistan’s operational skill and acknowledge capability gaps on India’s side, that’s better than a lot of commentary. But they’re also clearly speaking from an Indian “us vs them” lens, with occasional smugness and cheap shots, and they sometimes let narrative satisfaction outrun evidentiary caution.

 

[Falcon26]

There is an incident that occurred in the 80s with a visiting PLAAF General to Sargodha with US personnel present supporting the nacent F-16 deployment.
Suffice to say the PLAAF General immediately started doing “measurements” on the aircraft which caused some concern to the GD personnel there.

Pakistan’s restrictions are not just due to nuclear aspects but the Chinese angle- everything from carting off the tomahawks to alleged F-16 accident airframes being studied by the Chinese exist. The result is you have much more controls than your typical F-16 user.

But, whose fault is that.
So while there are no kill codes. Crypto keys are generated with knowledge of US attache and if you try to access the Sniper pods beyond the basic maintenance a little alert goes off in an office somewhere.

Measurements with his hands, at that too.

 

[Falcon26]

Did anyone post this?

Apologies if someone has (already).

Other than Godi Media going bezerk on the matter, you guys outta listen to a couple of guys that do have technical knowledge - and have flown in the Viper.

Yeah..., they are obviously biased. Explains why they're still alive in Lynch Land.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

​

@Quwa
@RescueRanger @Musings @Oscar @Waz
@Windjammer @HemlockKhalid/AeronautIR @krash @Irfan Baloch
@airomerix @airwolf137 @Ali_Baba @alphapak @Areesh @ARMalik @Aziqbal @baqai @Bilal @Bratva @Clairvoyant @Dalit @DESERT FIGHTER @Distant_Observer @FuturePAF @GriffinsRule @Gripen9 @HRK @HAIDER @Hakikat ve Hikmet @I*R*A @Khanivore @Khansaheeb @KingQamaR @Liquidator @Maarkhoor @Master Chief @Mobius @maverick @Mighty_Dragon_Strike @Mrc @mythbuster @NA71 @Olympus81 @PakAl @Pak Defender @PakistaniDefender @PakShaheen79 @Panzerkiel @PK781 @pwfi @r3alist @Reichmarshal @SaadH @SD 10 @side-winder @SiliconBit (silicon0000) @SteppeWolff @Starlord @TAC @TOPGUN @TopGun786 @Truth Seeker @UndercoverJIX @Vapnope @Vortex @Yasser76 @ziaulislam

Flown in the viper as sitting in the back and being flown around like a teenager?

 

[FuturePAF]

If Türkiye gets back in the F-35 program and also purchases the Eurofighter as well as gets an American upgrade of its F-16s, while continuing with the Ozgur and KAAN programs, does this indicate they will have F-16 airframes on hand to get the Ozgur upgrade and eventually have enough life in them to be worthwhile (for the PAF) to sell onto Pakistan, if cleared by the US?

Would the PAF want second hand Turkish F-16s with GE engines?

 

[AeronautIR]

Interesting video. Silly video thumbnail tho. Their technical commentary is mostly respectful of the platform and (at times) of the Pakistan Air Force’s competence, they repeatedly call the PAF “extremely capable,” “incredibly skilled,” and treat the F-16 as a serious threat system. That part doesn’t read like cartoonish chest-thumping.

But their behavioral framing toward Pakistan is clearly adversarial and smug in a few places as per usual:

• They talk about Pakistan as a “problem object,” not a country with interests. Lines like “continued headache for us” set a tone where Pakistan’s capability is framed as an annoyance that needs managing, not something to understand neutrally.
• There’s casual, snide insinuation about Pakistan-US politics. “Field marshal Munir made friends with the US president… and the PAF got this upgrade” is presented like a wink-wink transactional payoff. That may be plausible as political analysis, but the delivery is more sneer than evidence-led.
• They slip into triumphal/loose claims without care. “India’s knocked down a few on the ground,” “I think we knocked one of them out… we don’t know,” etc. Saying contested things as if they’re basically settled (then half-walking it back) is a tell of partisan posture rather than analyst discipline.
• They use humor to belittle rather than illuminate. The “IMF paying Lockheed?” / “dole” bit is a cheap laugh at Pakistan’s finances. It’s not overt hate, but it is derisive — the kind of jab that signals “we’re above them.”
• They treat escalation like sports commentary at times. The vibe is “threat scoreboard” more than “war is serious.” That’s common in nationalist defense media, but it’s still a tone choice.

So my frank read: they’re not rabidly anti-Pakistan, and they do credit Pakistan’s operational skill and acknowledge capability gaps on India’s side, that’s better than a lot of commentary. But they’re also clearly speaking from an Indian “us vs them” lens, with occasional smugness and cheap shots, and they sometimes let narrative satisfaction outrun evidentiary caution.

Spot on... Shiv Aroor's tweets on X are evidence of his bias against Pakistan... I think this was a carefully scripted show for audience, where they seem to be accepting PAF's professionalism to sound neutral but underlying message is same "India great, Pakistan bad"

 

[Night Memory]

we dont even know what PFX is. Literally could be nothing... PFX could be a project to make a bolt in house for all we know. Nothing has been defined, its pretty clear why either, if theres no idea of what the project is, then it cant be a failure.

PAF has not committed to KAAN nor J-35 yet. Both are too early. Yes, J-35 is flying, but it means nothing. There will be years of quirks to be ironed out, then years of infra and tactics develoment at the paf side too etc, its a long shot and a multi decade plan id say. Maybe at best PAF could expect a few units in like 10 years as a start or whatever.

Kizilelma, well see what comes of that.

The PAF has to replace F-7's, Mirage's and also up next, the fighter earmarked for retirement is the JF-17, they will hit their lives before F-16s will... Whats the cheapest thing to induct?

More F-16s

Cheapest thing to induct are additional JF-17 Block 3s. Why are you so heavily insistent on F-16s?

 

[rafale]

Considering you lost a F-16 because someone used a mirage nut vs one specific from supplier for F-16 - there is good reason.

That's an inherent desi problem, jugar baazi where it is not needed or simply the attitude to not care enough that sometimes OEMs know more. Have plenty of such stories too from Industrial settings....reserved for some time later amusings........

Funniest is people asking on automotive forums in Pakistan which oil they should use in their car when the manufacturer clearly specifies it in the manual and as if random self taught internet car enthusiasts know more than the OEM.........