Venezuela - US Conflict: News, Updates

[Cash gk]

North Korea fired some warning missiles after Venezuela fresco

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[Ag1123]

That's literally not how this shit works, and is an uneducated view of what capitalism and free market is.

I don't want to hear an opinion about economics from someone who probably doesn't even know what the accounting equation is, and doesn't understand credits and debits.

You arent making an argument, you're making personal declarations and trying to pass them off as facts.

I have a degree in economics, particularly Austrian economics, I know my shit.

Now are you going to address my arguments or dodge them like most socialists I come across?

 

[Cash gk]

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[Pak-Warrior]

Manuel Noriega.


Technology enabled US to do these unexpected things.


As an Air Force guy, my opinion is that it would be foolish to assume that we would encounter no air opposition. Why do you think the EA-18s were involved? We scrambled their radars and communication. We had air superiority 'just in case' anyone foolish to peek his head. Our helos flew at 100 ft altitude to avoid any radar detection. The mission success was precisely because we had assets to cover contingencies that discourage others. But in the end, I want everyone to think of US the way you just did because it will make possible even more outrageous things we can do.


Catching an opponent unprepared is what Sun-Tzu and Clauswitz advocate.

Here is what I repeated often on this forum since I was invited here back in '09, and I learned this from a chief when I was active duty.

In a fight, you win not by fighting under your opponent's rules but by forcing him to fight under yours. And cheating is allowed.

A 'rule' is any advantage you have over him, or he has over you. If you have more powerful engines, keep the fight fast. If you can outturn him, keep the fight maneuverable. If you have a better radar, keep the fight at a distance. If you, but not him, can see in the dark, then attack at night. And the list goes on.

Severing communication and blind radars when he least expected are what every military wish they could do to their potential opponents. So what is the problem?

Historically, conquering armies lived off the land, but with Desert Shield and Desert Storm, the US became the only military that transport everything it needed transhemispherically. No one expected that as they watched in awe at Desert Shield buildup. Then with Desert Storm, no one expected any military to execute multiple missions with near instantaneous effects to overwhelm Iraqi defense at every level. What is the problem with that?

War is not a contest but survival. Other than dishonorable tactics, to fight in a war is to fight unfair. We can separate out the 'abduction' of Maduro under moral and legal umbrellas, but it is absurd to say that we cover every aspect of Venezuelan defense as somehow 'unfair' because they were caught off guard.

I agree to everything you wrote above. You missed the crux of my post.

You mentioned in your first post about Raptors, Growlers, whole joint force and so the US military, POTUS also portrayed the whole op as such. But that's how ofcourse it needs to be marketed then what exactly what it is. It is nothing of that sort in reality. In essence the technological element in this op was only secondary (as opponent was certainly not a sophisticated military and no air power). The only core aspect of this op which gave you success was a dishonorable deceit. Had Maduro knew that US can stoop to that level of abducting a head of state of sovereign nation along with his wife then no amount of Raptors or growlers or US technological superiority at display could have achieved that. As he would have prepared for something that low. He had few normal guards protecting his residence. He certainly never imagined that head of states can be abducted.


Factors which enabled Success of US Op:

1- Extremely Malicious & dishonorable deceit so no one is prepared for that kind of thing - (Major factor)
2- Technology & military might - minor factor (EW, AWACS, Raptors, Growlers and Whole lot of stuff...)


I 100% agree US military is very advance & trained, a super power. I also agree element of surprise is key factor in actual warfare and you are allowed to be unfair and have unfair advantage when you meet your adversary in the battlefield. But nothing of this sort was happening here in this abduction Op. It wasn't a war. Venezuela wasn't at war with US, you never met them in battlefield. US did an abduction Op and no one in their right mind will prepare of such a thing.

If you can equate this with being unfair in battlefield, then by all means we can justify what al-qaeda did in 9/11. They were unfair, they did something unexpected which no one could imagined can happen and so US wasn't prepared for that sort of thing. US did exactly the same thing. We are talking about tactics here, so cannot dismiss the morality angle at all from this Op as this was the only major tactic that was employed by the US.

 

[MH.Yang]

Friend, while I agree with most of what you are saying, and agree with most individuals here that condemn US attack on a sovereign nation, and taking out a sovereign leader; There is something we have to get correct here.

Socialism and it’s worst form communism is garbage system. Socialism has never done any good for humanity whatsoever. Today most of the world is rich because of Capitalism, in fact even your nation, if it hadn’t adopted Capitalism and remained with Communism would have people starving everywhere dying by the thousands.

And you don’t need sanctions, or enmity, Socialism as a system impoverishes a people.

Is what the US did good? No, they are going against a rule based order defying every international custom.

Are Venezuelans going to he better off after? Most definitely, especially if they adopt Capitalism because Capitalism is the social system of private ownership of the means of production, in which economic calculation is possible through market prices formed by voluntary exchange.

In a way this is good for Venezuela as it’s people can get rid of that garbage system called socialism, but bad for the world because it erodes rules and international trust.

Venezuela is a communist or socialist country, so the United States can legally colonize Venezuela. Is this why you think the United States can invade Venezuela and plunder Venezuelan oil?

Ridiculous. First of all, I don't want to tell you that Venezuelans had a very good quality of life before being blocked and sanctioned by the United States.

I just want to ask:

if before the British invaded South Asia, the lives of most South Asians were not as good as those of the British, or the social system was not as good as that of the British.

So is Britain's colonization and plunder of South Asia something worthy of your praise?



btw: Now I will give you a few words. The moral of you people deserves the miseries which the colonists have brought to you. You have no right to accuse the English or other colonists.

 

[Pak-Warrior]

Friend, while I agree with most of what you are saying, and agree with most individuals here that condemn US attack on a sovereign nation, and taking out a sovereign leader; There is something we have to get correct here.

Socialism and it’s worst form communism is garbage system. Socialism has never done any good for humanity whatsoever. Today most of the world is rich because of Capitalism, in fact even your nation, if it hadn’t adopted Capitalism and remained with Communism would have people starving everywhere dying by the thousands.

And you don’t need sanctions, or enmity, Socialism as a system impoverishes a people.

Is what the US did good? No, they are going against a rule based order defying every international custom.

Are Venezuelans going to he better off after? Most definitely, especially if they adopt Capitalism because Capitalism is the social system of private ownership of the means of production, in which economic calculation is possible through market prices formed by voluntary exchange.

In a way this is good for Venezuela as it’s people can get rid of that garbage system called socialism, but bad for the world because it erodes rules and international trust.

Don't pass statements for things which you have no idea. Saying "garbage" to something so immense and transformational and being applied at colossal scale with extreme success.

China is a socialist republic, they only dream to reach at communism level. They say we are progressing towards it but its a far far goal. Now, China with world's largest population (second ) took its massive population out of poverty in last 4 decades. Its innovating, industrialized, producing so many millionaires, billionaries, world class companies (byd etc) and taking the world with storm. The lifestyle in china has risen significantly, its the only nation to have a space station of its own. Modern china only gained independence 80 years ago or so. It actually started from scratch, compare it with countries who started at the same time or even much earlier. Compare ex-colonial states which followed capitalists principles with those with China.

BTW, you wrote that Venezuelans will be far off after the so-called freedom hit them. In which world you are living? You never witnessed that freedom hit Iraq and it remained unstable till now and its riches not even reaching common man (worse then past). Freedom hit Libya ( a welfare state it was with people being taken care of and now its a mess), Freedom hit Syria, Freedom hit anywhere it becomes a mess. Venezuela is not going to be any different.

Capitalists never attack or destroy a nation as if they care for their people. They always attack it to completely subdue it and to loot its resources. That obviously devastates those nations. Make no mistake Venezuelans will be far better with a socialist leader of their own then a puppet regime installed by hegemonic capitalists.

 

[Ag1123]

Venezuela is a communist or socialist country, so the United States can legally colonize Venezuela. Is this why you think the United States can invade Venezuela and plunder Venezuelan oil?

Ridiculous. First of all, I don't want to tell you that Venezuelans had a very good quality of life before being blocked and sanctioned by the United States.

I just want to ask:

if before the British invaded South Asia, the lives of most South Asians were not as good as those of the British, or the social system was not as good as that of the British.

So is Britain's colonization and plunder of South Asia something worthy of your praise?



btw: Now I will give you a few words. The moral of you people deserves the miseries which the colonists have brought to you. You have no right to accuse the English or other colonists.

No that was never fine. Invasions or interventions of any kind throughout history were never morally justified nor are they morally justified today.

My critique is purely towards Socialism. No socialist nation in the long run benefits a nation, socialism only works through force.

Don't pass statements for things which you have no idea. Saying "garbage" to something so immense and transformational and being applied at colossal scale with extreme success.

China is a socialist republic, they only dream to reach at communism level. They say we are progressing towards it but its a far far goal. Now, China with world's largest population (second ) took its massive population out of poverty in last 4 decades. Its innovating, industrialized, producing so many millionaires, billionaries, world class companies (byd etc) and taking the world with storm. The lifestyle in china has risen significantly, its the only nation to have a space station of its own. Modern china only gained independence 80 years ago or so. It actually started from scratch, compare it with countries who started at the same time or even much earlier. Compare ex-colonial states which followed capitalists principles with those with China.

BTW, you wrote that Venezuelans will be far off after the so-called freedom hit them. In which world you are living? You never witnessed that freedom hit Iraq and it remained unstable till now and its riches not even reaching common man (worse then past). Freedom hit Libya ( a welfare state it was with people being taken care of and now its a mess), Freedom hit Syria, Freedom hit anywhere it becomes a mess. Venezuela is not going to be any different.

Capitalists never attack or destroy a nation as if they care for their people. They always attack it to completely subdue it and to loot its resources. That obviously devastates those nations. Make no mistake Venezuelans will be far better with a socialist leader of their own then a puppet regime installed by hegemonic capitalists.

China only prospered after adopting free markets, even if it is partial today. Free markets and the right to own private property in the means of production allows for economic calculation in the form of profits and loss.

Where profit and loss is privatized, a society thrives because it then knows if it is wasting resources or allocating them properly.

The main issue with Socialism is inherently this, it cannot calculate. And here is a fact you can fact check, in all socialist nations even the extreme one (North Korea) there exist and existed de-facto Capitalism or black markets, why, because you can’t eradicate time preference which is innate to human nature, something socialist planners failed to understand.

So when I say Socialism or its worst derivative Communism are garbage systems, I mean it utterly and truly. Those systems destroy markets, can’t coordinate production, and end the lives of millions. Hence why China adopted Capitalism, hence why the Soviet Union collapsed and failed. This is something governments and deep states of every nation have understood.

Now finally coming to Venezuela, I don’t agree with what US is doing, and what US did with those middle eastern countries. This destroys a ruled based international system.

However if Venezuelans are smart, they can capitalize on this, get rid of this socialist garbage system which has ruined many nations in the past and present, adopt Capitalism and be aligned with the US, the people would be actually better off.

Don't pass statements for things which you have no idea. Saying "garbage" to something so immense and transformational and being applied at colossal scale with extreme success.

China is a socialist republic, they only dream to reach at communism level. They say we are progressing towards it but its a far far goal. Now, China with world's largest population (second ) took its massive population out of poverty in last 4 decades. Its innovating, industrialized, producing so many millionaires, billionaries, world class companies (byd etc) and taking the world with storm. The lifestyle in china has risen significantly, its the only nation to have a space station of its own. Modern china only gained independence 80 years ago or so. It actually started from scratch, compare it with countries who started at the same time or even much earlier. Compare ex-colonial states which followed capitalists principles with those with China.

BTW, you wrote that Venezuelans will be far off after the so-called freedom hit them. In which world you are living? You never witnessed that freedom hit Iraq and it remained unstable till now and its riches not even reaching common man (worse then past). Freedom hit Libya ( a welfare state it was with people being taken care of and now its a mess), Freedom hit Syria, Freedom hit anywhere it becomes a mess. Venezuela is not going to be any different.

Capitalists never attack or destroy a nation as if they care for their people. They always attack it to completely subdue it and to loot its resources. That obviously devastates those nations. Make no mistake Venezuelans will be far better with a socialist leader of their own then a puppet regime installed by hegemonic capitalists.

China only prospered after adopting free markets, even if it is partial today. Free markets and the right to own private property in the means of production allows for economic calculation in the form of profits and loss.

Where profit and loss is privatized, a society thrives because it then knows if it is wasting resources or allocating them properly.

The main issue with Socialism is inherently this, it cannot calculate. And here is a fact you can fact check, in all socialist nations even the extreme one (North Korea) there exist and existed de-facto Capitalism or black markets, why, because you can’t eradicate time preference which is innate to human nature, something socialist planners failed to understand.

So when I say Socialism or its worst derivative Communism are garbage systems, I mean it utterly and truly. Those systems destroy markets, can’t coordinate production, and end the lives of millions. Hence why China adopted Capitalism, hence why the Soviet Union collapsed and failed. This is something governments and deep states of every nation have understood.

Now finally coming to Venezuela, I don’t agree with what US is doing, and what US did with those middle eastern countries. This destroys a ruled based international system.

However if Venezuelans are smart, they can capitalize on this, get rid of this socialist garbage system which has ruined many nations in the past and present, adopt Capitalism and be aligned with the US, the people would be actually better off.

 

[Master Chief]

You've made no case whatsoever.

The erudite colleague you are engaging with knows full well that he has made no case, yet somehow appears to have won "the argument" through his sophisticated psy-ops. This top tier trolling ability is why @El Sidd is my favourite pdf-er ever, but alas he refuses to accept my sacrificial offerings of forum status points, presumably out of his sense of magnanimous benevolence towards us mere mortals.

 

[Musings]

The erudite colleague you are engaging with knows full well that he has made no case, yet somehow appears to have won "the argument" through his sophisticated psy-ops. This top tier trolling ability is why @El Sidd is my favourite pdf-er ever, but alas he refuses to accept my sacrificial offerings of forum status points, presumably out of his sense of magnanimous benevolence towards us mere mortals.

The man that can write a whole essay and you still dont know what he is talking about. Bless him.....

 

[Watandar]

Lawyer who defended Julian Assange is now defending Maduro.

Maduro's lawyer, known for being 'meticulous,' previously defended Julian Assange

Barry Pollack is an experienced trial attorney who previously represented the controversial WikiLeaks founder and an Enron executive accused of fraud.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[MH.Yang]

No that was never fine. Invasions or interventions of any kind throughout history were never morally justified nor are they morally justified today.

My critique is purely towards Socialism. No socialist nation in the long run benefits a nation, socialism only works through force.


China only prospered after adopting free markets, even if it is partial today. Free markets and the right to own private property in the means of production allows for economic calculation in the form of profits and loss.

Where profit and loss is privatized, a society thrives because it then knows if it is wasting resources or allocating them properly.

The main issue with Socialism is inherently this, it cannot calculate. And here is a fact you can fact check, in all socialist nations even the extreme one (North Korea) there exist and existed de-facto Capitalism or black markets, why, because you can’t eradicate time preference which is innate to human nature, something socialist planners failed to understand.

So when I say Socialism or its worst derivative Communism are garbage systems, I mean it utterly and truly. Those systems destroy markets, can’t coordinate production, and end the lives of millions. Hence why China adopted Capitalism, hence why the Soviet Union collapsed and failed. This is something governments and deep states of every nation have understood.

Now finally coming to Venezuela, I don’t agree with what US is doing, and what US did with those middle eastern countries. This destroys a ruled based international system.

However if Venezuelans are smart, they can capitalize on this, get rid of this socialist garbage system which has ruined many nations in the past and present, adopt Capitalism and be aligned with the US, the people would be actually better off.

China only prospered after adopting free markets, even if it is partial today. Free markets and the right to own private property in the means of production allows for economic calculation in the form of profits and loss.

Where profit and loss is privatized, a society thrives because it then knows if it is wasting resources or allocating them properly.

The main issue with Socialism is inherently this, it cannot calculate. And here is a fact you can fact check, in all socialist nations even the extreme one (North Korea) there exist and existed de-facto Capitalism or black markets, why, because you can’t eradicate time preference which is innate to human nature, something socialist planners failed to understand.

So when I say Socialism or its worst derivative Communism are garbage systems, I mean it utterly and truly. Those systems destroy markets, can’t coordinate production, and end the lives of millions. Hence why China adopted Capitalism, hence why the Soviet Union collapsed and failed. This is something governments and deep states of every nation have understood.

Now finally coming to Venezuela, I don’t agree with what US is doing, and what US did with those middle eastern countries. This destroys a ruled based international system.

However if Venezuelans are smart, they can capitalize on this, get rid of this socialist garbage system which has ruined many nations in the past and present, adopt Capitalism and be aligned with the US, the people would be actually better off.

Firstly, you need to clarify what a communist country is, what a socialist country is, and what a capitalist country is.

Communist countries distribute goods according to the needs of the people. Socialist countries distribute goods based on labor contributions. Capitalist countries allocate goods based on capital operations.

China is a socialist country, not the capitalist country you think it is. The economic mainstay of China is state-owned enterprises, with 45% of enterprises in China being state-owned enterprises. 55% of China's wealth belongs to the state or collectives, and this wealth is returned to all citizens through cheap and excellent infrastructure, medical services, education services, social security, welfare, and so on, making their living costs very low. That's why there are no homeless people in China, and even the lowest class can live a decent life.

Secondly, Chinese people do not recognize the Soviet Union and other countries as communist countries.

The Soviet Union was an imperialist country disguised as communism.

North Korea is a feudal kingdom disguised as communism.

Vietnam and Laos are socialist countries that copy the Chinese system.

There has never been a true communist country in this world, and China is still exploring the correct path to achieving a communist country.

Classifying the Soviet Union and North Korea as communist countries is a smear of communism by countries such as the United States.

Ultimately, only China has the right to define what a communist country is. Capitalist countries such as the United States and imperialist countries such as the Soviet Union are not qualified to define communist countries.

 

[RocketLaw]

I haven’t seen many videos of the attack but if this video is true, it was a massive attack on Venezuela prior to abduction of their President

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Hope you are doing well.

I see some videos are missiles directly from Iran to attack Israel - old videos.

Not accurate though

 

[Master Chief]

Firstly, you need to clarify what a communist country is, what a socialist country is, and what a capitalist country is.

Communist countries distribute goods according to the needs of the people. Socialist countries distribute goods based on labor contributions. Capitalist countries allocate goods based on capital operations.

China is a socialist country, not the capitalist country you think it is. The economic mainstay of China is state-owned enterprises, with 45% of enterprises in China being state-owned enterprises. 55% of China's wealth belongs to the state or collectives, and this wealth is returned to all citizens through cheap and excellent infrastructure, medical services, education services, social security, welfare, and so on, making their living costs very low. That's why there are no homeless people in China, and even the lowest class can live a decent life.

Secondly, Chinese people do not recognize the Soviet Union and other countries as communist countries.

The Soviet Union was an imperialist country disguised as communism.

North Korea is a feudal kingdom disguised as communism.

Vietnam and Laos are socialist countries that copy the Chinese system.

There has never been a true communist country in this world, and China is still exploring the correct path to achieving a communist country.

Classifying the Soviet Union and North Korea as communist countries is a smear of communism by countries such as the United States.

Ultimately, only China has the right to define what a communist country is. Capitalist countries such as the United States and imperialist countries such as the Soviet Union are not qualified to define communist countries.

This is an informative post.

People forget that the established absolutist definitions and delineations of "communism", "socialism", and "capitalism" still used in the west are actually relics of a cold war informational assault against the USSR. USSR was the enemy at the time. It made sense to define them in absolutist and highly specific terms, however inaccurate those terms ultimately were. The reality is far greyer, as you have implied.

 

[Ali_Baba]

I haven’t seen many videos of the attack but if this video is true, it was a massive attack on Venezuela prior to abduction of their President

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That looks the Israeli attack on Syria after the downfall of Assad combined with Iranian retaliation against Israel videos.

 

[ghazi52]

Venezuelan opposition calls for release of all political prisoners
​

Image source,Reuters

Opposition leader María Corina Machado's movement has demanded for the release of all political prisoners in a post on X.

"Those who unjustly hold the civilian and military political prisoners should free them immediately," reads a statement from the Vente Venezuela movement.

Machado has reposted the statement on X.