Pakistan-India Conflict 2025: News Updates and Discussion

[falcon34]

Tbh I would have preferred 20+ SU30, Mig 29 and Mirages 2000 being taken out rather than 4-5 rafales.
I don't why Jeff's weren't authorized to launch PL15s about 22 of them were flying, at least they should have allowed to go bisarck on the other indian jets and j10s could be on rafale duty.
@AeronautIR any idea why.

 

[Mobius]

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[Oscar]

Tbh I would have preferred 20+ SU30, Mig 29 and Mirages 2000 being taken out rather than 4-5 rafales.
I don't why Jeff's weren't authorized to launch PL15s about 22 of them were flying, at least they should have allowed to go bisarck on the other indian jets and j10s could be on rafale duty.
@AeronautIR any idea why.

"Assure kill, Deny own loss" or something like that.
There was a baseline risk, and within it it was determined that the range the JF-17s would launch the PL-15s was riskier than the range the J-10s would.
But that doesnt mean that would not mean "Assure Kill" would not be met but that the probability that the JF-17 MAR against the Rafale was getting in a less than "Deny own loss" guaranteed situation.

 

[kubotabx23]

@AeronautIR
Any idea about the inquiry thing about less aircraft being downed some members are talking about.

Probably in regards to India's Republic Day.

I personally believe Pakistan did shoot down between 4-6 planes, with four planes having definite evidence behind them.

I also believe that the claim of 4+ Rafale jets being shot down was a stretch, but agree that PAF had the ability to shoot down more than what was shot down, and that restraint was taken.

That said, it is entirely reasonable to believe that the Indian government would seek to negate/hide losses from their audience due to several factors, including the bloodthirst that many of their domestic audience crave (because of what is fed to them by their gov't and media).

We also know that the Indian establishment (including media), have no problem using the Indian military as props/entertainment (see: Modi photoshoot behind S400 battery, Amitabh Bachhan interviewing/hosting military leadership on a game show, media doing the rounds on Shivangi Singh before the conflict, etc).

And finally, we also know that telling outlandish lies is not something new to the political establishment, including the Indian military (see: the claims by Indian Air Chief of many Pakistani jets being shot down, including an AWACS, several months after the conflict, but "surprisingly", no on the ground videos showing such nor any international agreement (media, political heads of countries, etc)).

Therefore, in my opinion, it is justified to consider any claims that a cover-up was done in order to appease their own audience. Whether you believe it, well, that depends on you.

 

[White Privilege]

"Assure kill, Deny own loss" or something like that.
There was a baseline risk, and within it it was determined that the range the JF-17s would launch the PL-15s was riskier than the range the J-10s would.
But that doesnt mean that would not mean "Assure Kill" would not be met but that the probability that the JF-17 MAR against the Rafale was getting in a less than "Deny own loss" guaranteed situation.

The logical way would have been to use J-10s to kill all Rafale and then let the Thunder take on the lesser ranged foes. However the way even J-10s were held back needs to be looked at. At the time I believe the PAF didn't want a escalatory bloodbath, but now it is somewhat regretting it....

 

[Yasser76]

The logical way would have been to use J-10s to kill all Rafale and then let the Thunder take on the lesser ranged foes. However the way even J-10s were held back needs to be looked at. At the time I believe the PAF didn't want a escalatory bloodbath, but now it is somewhat regretting it....

Yeah hindsight if a great thing. We always needed to remember a massive IAF loss on the first day would have forced India into other alternatives

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@rafale

so PAF will never get this chance again.

Why not? If there is another err... war (although I hope there isn't any), you can send PAF into Indian airspace to shoot down/destroy on ground IAF jets.

Regards

 

[Psyko70]

People said same in 2019. Wont get other chance. This is real world. Patterns repeat. Sometimes in our favor sometimes in indians favor.

 

[AeronautIR]

@AeronautIR
Any idea about the inquiry thing about less aircraft being downed some members are talking about.

This is the first time I am hearing of it. To my knowledge, there was no such inquiry. Even if I accept that the orders were to shoot more aircraft on 7th, what about the restraint by top brass on 10th May and decision to not release target imagery?

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@AeronautIR

what about the restraint on 10th May and decision to not release target imagery?

If independent observers including the recent Swiss reports are to be believed:

1. The restraint on May 10 was a case of discretion being the better part of valour
2. There were no images - that if of Indian assets being hit- to be released.

Regards

 

[AeronautIR]

@AeronautIR

what about the restraint on 10th May and decision to not release target imagery?

If independent observers including the recent Swiss reports are to be believed:

1. The restraint on May 10 was a case of discretion being the better part of valour
2. There were no images - that if of Indian assets being hit- to be released.

Regards

Not going in that debate again... the thread about Swiss report has been closed for good reasons. I have already stated multiple times that not releasing imagery doesn't mean no targets were hit.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@AeronautIR

I have already stated multiple times that not releasing imagery doesn't mean no targets were hit.

Agreed. As Dada (@Joe Shearer) says, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

To give an example, just because no one has seen ModiGee's degree, it doesn't mean ModiGees degree doesn't exist.

Regards

 

[AeronautIR]

Tbh I would have preferred 20+ SU30, Mig 29 and Mirages 2000 being taken out rather than 4-5 rafales.
I don't why Jeff's weren't authorized to launch PL15s about 22 of them were flying, at least they should have allowed to go bisarck on the other indian jets and j10s could be on rafale duty.
@AeronautIR any idea why.

I hope I am not walking in a minefield when I say that is not how it works... the formations on both sides were mixed and so it was not about authorization... JF and F-16 are more vulnerable against Meteor and if they are tagging a Su-30 MKI, a Rafale can take a cross pocket shot easily.
The J-10s were covering whole Pakistan from North to South and individual formations were about 4 each with 16 PL-15.
I agree with the assessment of Rafale being their center of gravity and 5 Rafale hits have more impact than 20 other jets.

 

[Fatman17]

EDITORIAL: While the Donald Trump-led Board of Peace is not without controversy, mainly because of the US president’s ambitions to create a body that could rival the UN, India faces a different dilemma where joining the board is concerned.

Although Mr Trump has extended an invitation to New Delhi, reports indicate that India is “examining” the proposal. The main reason for New Delhi’s dithering, as per the Indian commentariat, may be that it fears that joining the board could lead to ‘unwanted’ attention towards the Kashmir dispute.

The US leader has in the past offered his services to mediate the Kashmir question, while he also claimed to have played an integral part in bringing last year’s Pakistan-India hostilities to an end. India, however, remains allergic to third-party interest in occupied Kashmir.

Read more: https://www.dawn.com/news/1969466/indias-bop-dilemma

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@Fatman17

I think that IND should keep its distance from US till the time Trump's presidency gets over or he gets his Nobel, whichever is earlier. Else Trump would make India his bali ka bakra to get his NPP.

Regards