Pakistan-Saudi Arabia mutual defense pact: News & Discussion

[r3alist]

Just make sure you don't jump off the bridge at the end of your walk, your family needs you.

Sure, they do.

Best of health to your family.

 

[lightning f57]

No real good options for Pakistan here to be honest, damned if we do, damned if we dont. Pretty much sums up all the conversations on this thread...

Question is what's the approach with least negative outcomes.

There needs to be extreme pressure applied to the gulfies to push for a ceasefire, they can stop this, diplomatic way is the best.

 

[RescueRanger]

There needs to be extreme pressure applied to the gulfies to push for a ceasefire, they can stop this, diplomatic way is the best.

Impossible when you consider who is the aggrieved party. Both Iran and GCC see themselves as victims.

Suing for peace is not so simple as people think. At best this will be another frozen conflict like India/Pak - Russia/Georgia etc etc....

 

[hasssanali8998]

Suing for peace is not so simple as people think. At best this will be another frozen conflict like India/Pak - Russia/Georgia etc etc....

exactly just avoid it ,and focus on your country

 

[HAIDER]

Beautiful post.

For few dollars more, curse in the form of Zial Hul Haq. When destruction of this country started. Kalashnikov, heroin, religious extremism.
We hate to accept the reality.

 

[Bilal]

We want to be lambs in a forest full of predators.

 

[RescueRanger]

exactly just avoid it ,and focus on your country

You win the Internet today

 

[lightning f57]

Oh for just a few hours for Palestinians to hide in safety and for us to send 6 MRV equipped nuke Shaheen missiles and solves the worlds problems in less then an hour....

Here here, finally someone talking sense in this new world order we have woken up to.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

Pakistan will definitely help the KofSA. However, should we expect help if India attacks us (and it will definitely attack Pakistan) in future? We don't need their army/ airforce/ navy, but will KSA also coerce other GCC states (we know it can) to stop supplying oil to India?

The Kingdom has already funded our longest war against Afghanistan since the Kargil Conflict of May-June 1999.

Do people really think Pakistan would've hammered Afghanistan for 20 days like it did without complete financial support from The Kingdom?

Could Pakistan all on its own afford such an "open ended war" against Afghanistan, where Pakistan for the first time has occupied Afghan territory which it is not letting go of?

They look

 

[RescueRanger]

For few dollars more, curse in the form of Zial Hul Haq. When destruction of this country started. Kalashnikov, heroin, religious extremism.
We hate to accept the reality.

KK culture didn't start with Zia, on contrary Zia had it contained, bhutto and her inability to contain the tribals is what caused this.

Without making it too much of a history lesson:

The Taliban you see today or even the Taliban that existed in 1993 or even 2001 are not the original group that Pakistan supported.

Pakistan had its own interests beyond just protecting the muslims in Afghanistan and aiding the US.

Pakistan had credible intelligence at that time that the Soviets intended to capture Afghanistan and then push into Pakistan to capture the ports in Karachi:


The Original group that Pakistan backed and supported were Seven Party Mujahideen Alliance formed in 1988.

Afghan's have and always will remain fractured - in 1988 when the leaders of the seven party alliance came to Peshawar - it was only due to their hatred of the Soviet Union.


These included: Hikmatyar, Rasul Sayyaf, Rabbani, Mojaddedi, Younus Khalis, Mohammed Nabi. These were the main six major groups that made up the Mujahideen Alliance.

The one person to keep these warring groups who were highly distrust of each other was Gen. Zia Ul Haq.

The plan was always to push the Soviet Union out of Afghanistan and establish a government in Kabul with these six at the helm- a government that would be a friend to Pakistan to the extent that Afghanistan and Pakistan would be twinned nations.

It is important to understand that these groups depended on Pakistan not just for training, guidance or military aid - they traded with Pakistan all their food and consumables even their clothes were made and shipped from Pakistan.

In 1988 there were some 150,000 Afghan Refugees residing on the Pakistani side of the border on a permanent basis - others were transient and travelled to and from. The Government of Pakistan even ran primary schools to educate the children of the refugees.

You must appreciate that an entire generation was being raised that spoke Urdu, Urdu became their second language.

By the end of 1988 it was clear that the Soviet Union had lost its campaign and would be forced out of Afghanistan.

The Afghan Alliance could practically taste victory - at this critical juncture Gen. Zia was martyred in an assassination.

A tragic event that would have severe and long lasting repercussions for not only Afghanistan and Pakistan but the entire region going forward.

Instantly Pakistan lost control and influence over the Afghan Alliance.

When Benazir Bhutto came to power - she was unknown to the Afghan Alliance, not only was she an unknown she was a woman and the Afghan warlords did not respect her, nor listen to any commands from Islamabad.

Bhutto despite the advice of her head of Intelligence decided to plan the battle lines - a battle that would have devastating consequences.

In 1989 enter (late) Gen. Hamid Gul - who led a failed last ditch attempt - to lead a campaign to attempt to capture Jalalabad - to establish a seat of power for the Afghan Alliance inside Afghanistan.

To control Jalalabad the Mujahidin would have remove Najibullah's power and government - The battle was a complete failure - the Afghan Mujahideen who were used to light and unconventional warfare faltered when having to use conventional tactics against a dug in and well trained opponent and took heavy losses - some 14,000 mujahedeen were killed in the battle of Jalalabad.

Following the failure of the Battle of Jalalabad - Bhutto replaced Gen. Hamid Gul as the DG ISI.

Now rudderless and nursing wounds - the Afghan Alliance turned on each other - blaming different leaders and even Islamabad for poor leadership.

Fastforward to 1992. It is a common misconception that Pakistan maintained control of the Mujahideen - by the summer of 1992 Pakistan has all but lost any control or influence over the Alliance. The Americans had stopped financing them, and the Shura based in Peshawar was a Shura in name only.

This was around the same time Pakistan was slapped with heavy sanctions due to its covert nuclear weapons program.

Najibullah had managed to maintain control of not just Kabul but all territory to the East and South of Kabul.

In the winter of 1992 Ahmed Shah Mehsud led his forces and after a brutal campaign which left most of Kabul resemble a ghost town - wrestled it from Najibullah's grasp.

This was a major disaster for Pakistan. You see Bhutto and her planners never saw Afghanistan for what it was a disparate nation full of tribes and clans who differentiate themselves based on ethnic lines, Pakistan under Bhutto had bet on Hikmatyat's forces within the Afghan Alliance to establish a Pashtun ethnic government that would be friendly to Pakistan.

They didn't count on Ahmed Shah Mehsud or any of the other ethnic groups such as the Uzbek's, Tajik's or the Hazars having any say in how Afghanistan would be governed.

From 92-1996 Ahmed Shah Mehsud and Hikmatyar controlled small parcels of Afghanistan - the rest of the country was a lawless chaotic land with small fiefdoms ruled by powerful warlords who controlled the drugs trade, smuggling rackets and human trafficking.

All the same time the flow of refugees into Pakistan was constant.

In between all this sometime in 93-94 a group of religious students in Kandahar banded together and decided to kill the local warlord who was oppressing the people of the area - This was the birth of the Taliban (Lit. Students) - since they were religious students they adopted the name Taliban.

So when people say Pakistan gave birth to the Taliban, they don't know the history of the region or the country in question.

Anyhow, one of these students quickly rose to prominence due to his charisma and courage - his name was Mullah Mohammed Omar. He was the first Amir and established an Islamic government in Kandahar.

By the end of 1996 the Taliban had Seized Kabul, Ahmed Shah Mehsud retreated to Panjshir and Hekmatyar escaped to Iran.

In 1997 witnessing the developments across the border, Pakistan became the first and only nation to recognise the Afghan Taliban regime. This was a diplomatic victory for Pakistan.

Due to this, the Afghan Taliban saw Pakistan extremely favourably. Between 1996 till 2001 Pakistan and Afghanistan enjoyed hospitable brotherly relations.

When people say the Afghan-Pakistan border is porus it is because Pakistan and Afghanistan enjoyed such cordial relations that at no time was Afghanistan seen as a threat that needed to be fenced in or kept in check.

It is prudent that I mention here, that as Afghanistan had NO economy, Pakistan not only provided transfer of food, crops, agricultural equipment, medicine, vehicles and general items but also paid the salaries of many commanders and men. This is often used as a stick to beat Pakistan with to say that Pakistan financed terrorism.

When in fact from 1997-2001 the Taliban were virtually unknown to the wider world - they were not a threat, the US had disengaged, Soviet Union had collapsed the cold war was over.

Now this is all great, but about about the Original SIX powerful warlords? where did they go?

Well they existed but they now distrusted Pakistan - harbouring resentment for the failure of Jalalabad and feeling that Pakistan had installed the Taliban in Afghanistan, and since Pakistan provided financial and diplomatic aid to the Taliban - both Hikmatyar and Mehsud among others used this support as evidence to their audience that "LOOK PAKISTAN WANTS TO RULE AFGHANISTAN THEY INSTALLED THE TALIBAN".

Mehsud and Hikmatyar were among the most vocal anti-Pakistani voices.

Afghan Taliban were basically illiterate people who only knew the Quran in its literal form, they had no experience of governing a nation and enforced an extreme brand of Islam - this was showcased to the world when they bombed and destroyed the statues in Bamyan earning global condemnation.

Whilst Pakistan maintained diplomatic relations with the Afghan Regime and supported them - they never interfered with how they managed the country - the human rights violations under the strict brand of Islamic governance in Afghanistan, caused many in Afghanistan to further distrust of Pakistan as "meddlers".

Pakistan kept advocating for Afghanistan managed to convince the Saudis and the UAE to recognise the Taliban as the government of Afghanistan.

Now lets fast forward to 1999 - Martial Law is enforced in Pakistan and Gen. Musharraf's government comes to power.

Prior to September 11, Gen Musharraf had very good relations with the regime in Kabul - then the rest we know is history... After the fall of the Taliban regime the original group of Taliban that looked at Pakistan favourably have all grown old and are six feet under, the current generation of Afghan Taliban don't feel the same affinity with Pakistan as the group in 97-2001 because the younger generation blame Pakistan for supporting the Americans.

 

[HAIDER]

KK culture didn't start with Zia, on contrary Zia had it contained, bhutto and her inability to contain the tribals is what caused this.

Without making it too much of a history lesson:

The Taliban you see today or even the Taliban that existed in 1993 or even 2001 are not the original group that Pakistan supported.

Pakistan had its own interests beyond just protecting the muslims in Afghanistan and aiding the US.

Pakistan had credible intelligence at that time that the Soviets intended to capture Afghanistan and then push into Pakistan to capture the ports in Karachi:
View attachment 187323

The Original group that Pakistan backed and supported were Seven Party Mujahideen Alliance formed in 1988.

Afghan's have and always will remain fractured - in 1988 when the leaders of the seven party alliance came to Peshawar - it was only due to their hatred of the Soviet Union.


These included: Hikmatyar, Rasul Sayyaf, Rabbani, Mojaddedi, Younus Khalis, Mohammed Nabi. These were the main six major groups that made up the Mujahideen Alliance.

The one person to keep these warring groups who were highly distrust of each other was Gen. Zia Ul Haq.

The plan was always to push the Soviet Union out of Afghanistan and establish a government in Kabul with these six at the helm- a government that would be a friend to Pakistan to the extent that Afghanistan and Pakistan would be twinned nations.

It is important to understand that these groups depended on Pakistan not just for training, guidance or military aid - they traded with Pakistan all their food and consumables even their clothes were made and shipped from Pakistan.

In 1988 there were some 150,000 Afghan Refugees residing on the Pakistani side of the border on a permanent basis - others were transient and travelled to and from. The Government of Pakistan even ran primary schools to educate the children of the refugees.

You must appreciate that an entire generation was being raised that spoke Urdu, Urdu became their second language.

By the end of 1988 it was clear that the Soviet Union had lost its campaign and would be forced out of Afghanistan.

The Afghan Alliance could practically taste victory - at this critical juncture Gen. Zia was martyred in an assassination.

A tragic event that would have severe and long lasting repercussions for not only Afghanistan and Pakistan but the entire region going forward.

Instantly Pakistan lost control and influence over the Afghan Alliance.

When Benazir Bhutto came to power - she was unknown to the Afghan Alliance, not only was she an unknown she was a woman and the Afghan warlords did not respect her, nor listen to any commands from Islamabad.

Bhutto despite the advice of her head of Intelligence decided to plan the battle lines - a battle that would have devastating consequences.

In 1989 enter (late) Gen. Hamid Gul - who led a failed last ditch attempt - to lead a campaign to attempt to capture Jalalabad - to establish a seat of power for the Afghan Alliance inside Afghanistan.

To control Jalalabad the Mujahidin would have remove Najibullah's power and government - The battle was a complete failure - the Afghan Mujahideen who were used to light and unconventional warfare faltered when having to use conventional tactics against a dug in and well trained opponent and took heavy losses - some 14,000 mujahedeen were killed in the battle of Jalalabad.

Following the failure of the Battle of Jalalabad - Bhutto replaced Gen. Hamid Gul as the DG ISI.

Now rudderless and nursing wounds - the Afghan Alliance turned on each other - blaming different leaders and even Islamabad for poor leadership.

Fastforward to 1992. It is a common misconception that Pakistan maintained control of the Mujahideen - by the summer of 1992 Pakistan has all but lost any control or influence over the Alliance. The Americans had stopped financing them, and the Shura based in Peshawar was a Shura in name only.

This was around the same time Pakistan was slapped with heavy sanctions due to its covert nuclear weapons program.

Najibullah had managed to maintain control of not just Kabul but all territory to the East and South of Kabul.

In the winter of 1992 Ahmed Shah Mehsud led his forces and after a brutal campaign which left most of Kabul resemble a ghost town - wrestled it from Najibullah's grasp.

This was a major disaster for Pakistan. You see Bhutto and her planners never saw Afghanistan for what it was a disparate nation full of tribes and clans who differentiate themselves based on ethnic lines, Pakistan under Bhutto had bet on Hikmatyat's forces within the Afghan Alliance to establish a Pashtun ethnic government that would be friendly to Pakistan.

They didn't count on Ahmed Shah Mehsud or any of the other ethnic groups such as the Uzbek's, Tajik's or the Hazars having any say in how Afghanistan would be governed.

From 92-1996 Ahmed Shah Mehsud and Hikmatyar controlled small parcels of Afghanistan - the rest of the country was a lawless chaotic land with small fiefdoms ruled by powerful warlords who controlled the drugs trade, smuggling rackets and human trafficking.

All the same time the flow of refugees into Pakistan was constant.

In between all this sometime in 93-94 a group of religious students in Kandahar banded together and decided to kill the local warlord who was oppressing the people of the area - This was the birth of the Taliban (Lit. Students) - since they were religious students they adopted the name Taliban.

So when people say Pakistan gave birth to the Taliban, they don't know the history of the region or the country in question.

Anyhow, one of these students quickly rose to prominence due to his charisma and courage - his name was Mullah Mohammed Omar. He was the first Amir and established an Islamic government in Kandahar.

By the end of 1996 the Taliban had Seized Kabul, Ahmed Shah Mehsud retreated to Panjshir and Hekmatyar escaped to Iran.

In 1997 witnessing the developments across the border, Pakistan became the first and only nation to recognise the Afghan Taliban regime. This was a diplomatic victory for Pakistan.

Due to this, the Afghan Taliban saw Pakistan extremely favourably. Between 1996 till 2001 Pakistan and Afghanistan enjoyed hospitable brotherly relations.

When people say the Afghan-Pakistan border is porus it is because Pakistan and Afghanistan enjoyed such cordial relations that at no time was Afghanistan seen as a threat that needed to be fenced in or kept in check.

It is prudent that I mention here, that as Afghanistan had NO economy, Pakistan not only provided transfer of food, crops, agricultural equipment, medicine, vehicles and general items but also paid the salaries of many commanders and men. This is often used as a stick to beat Pakistan with to say that Pakistan financed terrorism.

When in fact from 1997-2001 the Taliban were virtually unknown to the wider world - they were not a threat, the US had disengaged, Soviet Union had collapsed the cold war was over.

Now this is all great, but about about the Original SIX powerful warlords? where did they go?

Well they existed but they now distrusted Pakistan - harbouring resentment for the failure of Jalalabad and feeling that Pakistan had installed the Taliban in Afghanistan, and since Pakistan provided financial and diplomatic aid to the Taliban - both Hikmatyar and Mehsud among others used this support as evidence to their audience that "LOOK PAKISTAN WANTS TO RULE AFGHANISTAN THEY INSTALLED THE TALIBAN".

Mehsud and Hikmatyar were among the most vocal anti-Pakistani voices.

Afghan Taliban were basically illiterate people who only knew the Quran in its literal form, they had no experience of governing a nation and enforced an extreme brand of Islam - this was showcased to the world when they bombed and destroyed the statues in Bamyan earning global condemnation.

Whilst Pakistan maintained diplomatic relations with the Afghan Regime and supported them - they never interfered with how they managed the country - the human rights violations under the strict brand of Islamic governance in Afghanistan, caused many in Afghanistan to further distrust of Pakistan as "meddlers".

Pakistan kept advocating for Afghanistan managed to convince the Saudis and the UAE to recognise the Taliban as the government of Afghanistan.

Now lets fast forward to 1999 - Martial Law is enforced in Pakistan and Gen. Musharraf's government comes to power.

Prior to September 11, Gen Musharraf had very good relations with the regime in Kabul - then the rest we know is history... After the fall of the Taliban regime the original group of Taliban that looked at Pakistan favourably have all grown old and are six feet under, the current generation of Afghan Taliban don't feel the same affinity with Pakistan as the group in 97-2001 because the younger generation blame Pakistan for supporting the Americans.

Warm water churn been sold us by Zia so many times. But, Afghanistan war was revenge of Vietnam war.

 

[RescueRanger]

Warm water churn been sold us by Zia so many times. But, Afghanistan war was revenge of Vietnam war.

ZIa was dead by the time this became public knowledge.

 

[Master Chief]

KK culture didn't start with Zia, on contrary Zia had it contained, bhutto and her inability to contain the tribals is what caused this.

Without making it too much of a history lesson:

The Taliban you see today or even the Taliban that existed in 1993 or even 2001 are not the original group that Pakistan supported.

Pakistan had its own interests beyond just protecting the muslims in Afghanistan and aiding the US.

Pakistan had credible intelligence at that time that the Soviets intended to capture Afghanistan and then push into Pakistan to capture the ports in Karachi:
View attachment 187323

The Original group that Pakistan backed and supported were Seven Party Mujahideen Alliance formed in 1988.

Afghan's have and always will remain fractured - in 1988 when the leaders of the seven party alliance came to Peshawar - it was only due to their hatred of the Soviet Union.


These included: Hikmatyar, Rasul Sayyaf, Rabbani, Mojaddedi, Younus Khalis, Mohammed Nabi. These were the main six major groups that made up the Mujahideen Alliance.

The one person to keep these warring groups who were highly distrust of each other was Gen. Zia Ul Haq.

The plan was always to push the Soviet Union out of Afghanistan and establish a government in Kabul with these six at the helm- a government that would be a friend to Pakistan to the extent that Afghanistan and Pakistan would be twinned nations.

It is important to understand that these groups depended on Pakistan not just for training, guidance or military aid - they traded with Pakistan all their food and consumables even their clothes were made and shipped from Pakistan.

In 1988 there were some 150,000 Afghan Refugees residing on the Pakistani side of the border on a permanent basis - others were transient and travelled to and from. The Government of Pakistan even ran primary schools to educate the children of the refugees.

You must appreciate that an entire generation was being raised that spoke Urdu, Urdu became their second language.

By the end of 1988 it was clear that the Soviet Union had lost its campaign and would be forced out of Afghanistan.

The Afghan Alliance could practically taste victory - at this critical juncture Gen. Zia was martyred in an assassination.

A tragic event that would have severe and long lasting repercussions for not only Afghanistan and Pakistan but the entire region going forward.

Instantly Pakistan lost control and influence over the Afghan Alliance.

When Benazir Bhutto came to power - she was unknown to the Afghan Alliance, not only was she an unknown she was a woman and the Afghan warlords did not respect her, nor listen to any commands from Islamabad.

Bhutto despite the advice of her head of Intelligence decided to plan the battle lines - a battle that would have devastating consequences.

In 1989 enter (late) Gen. Hamid Gul - who led a failed last ditch attempt - to lead a campaign to attempt to capture Jalalabad - to establish a seat of power for the Afghan Alliance inside Afghanistan.

To control Jalalabad the Mujahidin would have remove Najibullah's power and government - The battle was a complete failure - the Afghan Mujahideen who were used to light and unconventional warfare faltered when having to use conventional tactics against a dug in and well trained opponent and took heavy losses - some 14,000 mujahedeen were killed in the battle of Jalalabad.

Following the failure of the Battle of Jalalabad - Bhutto replaced Gen. Hamid Gul as the DG ISI.

Now rudderless and nursing wounds - the Afghan Alliance turned on each other - blaming different leaders and even Islamabad for poor leadership.

Fastforward to 1992. It is a common misconception that Pakistan maintained control of the Mujahideen - by the summer of 1992 Pakistan has all but lost any control or influence over the Alliance. The Americans had stopped financing them, and the Shura based in Peshawar was a Shura in name only.

This was around the same time Pakistan was slapped with heavy sanctions due to its covert nuclear weapons program.

Najibullah had managed to maintain control of not just Kabul but all territory to the East and South of Kabul.

In the winter of 1992 Ahmed Shah Mehsud led his forces and after a brutal campaign which left most of Kabul resemble a ghost town - wrestled it from Najibullah's grasp.

This was a major disaster for Pakistan. You see Bhutto and her planners never saw Afghanistan for what it was a disparate nation full of tribes and clans who differentiate themselves based on ethnic lines, Pakistan under Bhutto had bet on Hikmatyat's forces within the Afghan Alliance to establish a Pashtun ethnic government that would be friendly to Pakistan.

They didn't count on Ahmed Shah Mehsud or any of the other ethnic groups such as the Uzbek's, Tajik's or the Hazars having any say in how Afghanistan would be governed.

From 92-1996 Ahmed Shah Mehsud and Hikmatyar controlled small parcels of Afghanistan - the rest of the country was a lawless chaotic land with small fiefdoms ruled by powerful warlords who controlled the drugs trade, smuggling rackets and human trafficking.

All the same time the flow of refugees into Pakistan was constant.

In between all this sometime in 93-94 a group of religious students in Kandahar banded together and decided to kill the local warlord who was oppressing the people of the area - This was the birth of the Taliban (Lit. Students) - since they were religious students they adopted the name Taliban.

So when people say Pakistan gave birth to the Taliban, they don't know the history of the region or the country in question.

Anyhow, one of these students quickly rose to prominence due to his charisma and courage - his name was Mullah Mohammed Omar. He was the first Amir and established an Islamic government in Kandahar.

By the end of 1996 the Taliban had Seized Kabul, Ahmed Shah Mehsud retreated to Panjshir and Hekmatyar escaped to Iran.

In 1997 witnessing the developments across the border, Pakistan became the first and only nation to recognise the Afghan Taliban regime. This was a diplomatic victory for Pakistan.

Due to this, the Afghan Taliban saw Pakistan extremely favourably. Between 1996 till 2001 Pakistan and Afghanistan enjoyed hospitable brotherly relations.

When people say the Afghan-Pakistan border is porus it is because Pakistan and Afghanistan enjoyed such cordial relations that at no time was Afghanistan seen as a threat that needed to be fenced in or kept in check.

It is prudent that I mention here, that as Afghanistan had NO economy, Pakistan not only provided transfer of food, crops, agricultural equipment, medicine, vehicles and general items but also paid the salaries of many commanders and men. This is often used as a stick to beat Pakistan with to say that Pakistan financed terrorism.

When in fact from 1997-2001 the Taliban were virtually unknown to the wider world - they were not a threat, the US had disengaged, Soviet Union had collapsed the cold war was over.

Now this is all great, but about about the Original SIX powerful warlords? where did they go?

Well they existed but they now distrusted Pakistan - harbouring resentment for the failure of Jalalabad and feeling that Pakistan had installed the Taliban in Afghanistan, and since Pakistan provided financial and diplomatic aid to the Taliban - both Hikmatyar and Mehsud among others used this support as evidence to their audience that "LOOK PAKISTAN WANTS TO RULE AFGHANISTAN THEY INSTALLED THE TALIBAN".

Mehsud and Hikmatyar were among the most vocal anti-Pakistani voices.

Afghan Taliban were basically illiterate people who only knew the Quran in its literal form, they had no experience of governing a nation and enforced an extreme brand of Islam - this was showcased to the world when they bombed and destroyed the statues in Bamyan earning global condemnation.

Whilst Pakistan maintained diplomatic relations with the Afghan Regime and supported them - they never interfered with how they managed the country - the human rights violations under the strict brand of Islamic governance in Afghanistan, caused many in Afghanistan to further distrust of Pakistan as "meddlers".

Pakistan kept advocating for Afghanistan managed to convince the Saudis and the UAE to recognise the Taliban as the government of Afghanistan.

Now lets fast forward to 1999 - Martial Law is enforced in Pakistan and Gen. Musharraf's government comes to power.

Prior to September 11, Gen Musharraf had very good relations with the regime in Kabul - then the rest we know is history... After the fall of the Taliban regime the original group of Taliban that looked at Pakistan favourably have all grown old and are six feet under, the current generation of Afghan Taliban don't feel the same affinity with Pakistan as the group in 97-2001 because the younger generation blame Pakistan for supporting the Americans.

Thank you for this post, which i hope you dont mind me keeping. This is what is missing from diaspora "mental textbooks", hence I will paraphrase parts of it to help explain these bitter realities.

On a side note, based on his comments, I had always assumed Gulbuddin Hekmatyar remained sympathetic towards Islamabad and may still plausibly have been able to exert leverage. Seems not to be the case after all.

 

[RescueRanger]

Current Threat Matrix and complex balancing act on S. Eastern border:

Firstly, it is important to note that the relationship between the IRGC and Pakistan can only be described as a "Suspicious Peace". While we share a 560-mile border and common interests in stabilizing Afghanistan, our military and missile programs have remained largely separate and competitive- due to a mix of geopolitical, historical friction.

Until perhaps most recently, the IRGC traditionally views Pakistan through a lens of deep-seated mistrust for several reasons:

1. Proxy "Border" Wars: IRGC frequently accuses Pakistan of "willful negligence" or outright harboring of Sunni militant groups like Jaish al-Adl. These groups launch attacks on IRGC personnel in Iran's Sistan-Balochistan province. In January 2024, this tension boiled over into unprecedented tit-for-tat missile strikes between the two countries.

2. Conflicting Existential Alliances: The IRGC sees Pakistan as too close to its primary rivals. Pakistan maintains a "Special Defense Relationship" with Saudi Arabia and has historically relied on the U.S. for military aid. Conversely, Iran has developed a strategic partnership with India (specifically regarding the Chabahar Port), which Islamabad views as an encirclement tactic.
3. The Sectarian Factor: The IRGC is the vanguard of Iran's Shia clerical establishment. While Pakistan is a diverse state, the IRGC remains wary of Pakistan’s historical role in supporting Sunni movements (like the Taliban) and fears the influence of hardline Salafist elements within the Pakistani military and intelligence apparatus.

Similarly, whilst Pakistan presents the facade of brotherly nations - there is a serious concern inside Islamabad that the IRGC has historically cultivated and supported several proxy groups and networks within Pakistan. This support is usually driven by two goals: protecting Pakistan’s Shia minority and countering the influence of Saudi-backed Sunni groups.

1. The Zainabiyoun Brigade (The Most Recent Proxy)

The most significant modern proxy is the Zainabiyoun Brigade.

Recruitment: Formed by the IRGC-Quds Force around 2012–2014, it consists primarily of Pakistani Shias (many from the Kurram District and Gilgit-Baltistan).

Mission: Originally recruited to fight in Syria to defend the Bashar al-Assad regime and Shia shrines.

Domestic Impact: In early 2024, Pakistan officially designated the Zainabiyoun Brigade as a terrorist organization, citing its involvement in "activities against the interest of the state." The IRGC continues to provide pensions and support to the families of "martyrs" from this group living in Pakistan, which Islamabad views as a mechanism for maintaining a "sleeper cell" network.

In March 2024, the Pakistani Ministry of Interior officially designated the Zainabiyoun Brigade (Liwa Zainebiyoun) as a terrorist organization. This was a massive diplomatic blow to the IRGC, as the group is essentially their "foreign legion" for Pakistani Shias.

Why the Ban Happened: After the Syrian Civil War de-escalated, thousands of battle-hardened Pakistani fighters began returning home. Islamabad feared these men—trained in urban warfare and missile operation by the IRGC—would form "sleeper cells" or be used by Tehran to influence Pakistani internal politics.

The Turning Point: The ban followed the January 2024 tit-for-tat missile strikes between Iran and Pakistan. Pakistan used the designation to send a clear message: "We will no longer tolerate the IRGC recruiting our citizens to fight your regional wars."

Current Status (March 2026): Following the collapse of the Assad regime in late 2024/2025, many Zainabiyoun fighters fled to Iraq. Pakistan has strictly refused to repatriate them, viewing them as a permanent security threat. Recent reports suggest the IRGC is attempting to re-infiltrate these members back into Pakistan as "pilgrims" to maintain influence during the current regional instability.
2. Sectarian Proxy War (1980s–1990s)
Following the 1979 Iranian Revolution, the IRGC sought to "export the revolution." This led to a brutal proxy war on Pakistani soil against Saudi-funded groups.

Tehreek-e-Nifaz-e-Fiqh-e-Jafaria (TNFJ): Iran provided significant ideological and financial backing to this group in the 1980s to advocate for Shia rights under the Sunni-centric Islamization of General Zia-ul-Haq.

Sipah-e-Muhammad Pakistan (SMP): Formed in the early 1990s as a militant offshoot to counter the Sunni militant group Sipah-e-Sahaba. SMP was involved in numerous assassinations and bombings targeting Sunni hardliners. The IRGC was frequently accused by Pakistani intelligence (ISI) of providing training and sanctuary to SMP militants in Iran.

3. Cultural and Intelligence "Soft Power"
The IRGC operates through less "militant" channels that Pakistan still categorizes as proxy influence:

Imamia Students Organization (ISO): While primarily a student group, the ISO is openly pro-Iranian and follows the ideology of Velayat-e Faqih (Guardianship of the Jurist). The IRGC uses these networks for "ideological recruitment."

Intelligence Recruitment: In the late 2010s and early 2020s, several "spy rings" were uncovered in Karachi and Islamabad. Pakistani officials alleged these individuals were recruited by the IRGC to monitor U.S. and Saudi interests within Pakistan.

4. The "Baloch" Complication
While the IRGC fights Baloch separatists (like Jaish al-Adl) who hide in Pakistan, it has also been accused of selective blindness.

Pakistan has historically claimed that Iran allows certain Baloch insurgent groups (fighting against Pakistan) to maintain low-level presence on Iranian soil as leverage.

This "tit-for-tat" proxy game is why the border remains one of the most militarized and distrustful zones in Asia today.

---

---

Chabahar vs. Gwadar: The Port Rivalry
Senior officials in Pakistan are of the opinion that The IRGC uses the Chabahar Port as a strategic "chokepoint" to bypass and undermine Pakistan’s economic and military leverage.

Feature	Chabahar Port (Iran)	Gwadar Port (Pakistan)
Primary Partner	India	China
Strategic Goal	Bypass Pakistan to reach Central Asia.	Gateway for the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC).
IRGC Influence	High; the IRGC controls the security and logistics around the port.	None; seen as a rival "Sunni/Chinese" hub.

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Features of Chabahar Port which are a cause for concern in Islamabad:
The Indian Connection: By partnering with India to develop Chabahar, the IRGC provides New Delhi with a trade route to Afghanistan and Central Asia that completely skips Pakistan. This robs Islamabad of transit fees and "geography-based" diplomatic leverage.

A "Listening Post": Chabahar is located less than 200 kilometers from Gwadar. The IRGC uses its presence there to monitor Pakistani naval movements and the Chinese-funded activities in Gwadar.

The "Sanctions Shield": In early 2026, even as the U.S. ramped up tariffs and sanctions on Iran, India completed its $120 million investment in Chabahar. The IRGC views this port as an "unsinkable asset" that keeps India—a nuclear power and Pakistan's rival—tethered to Iranian interests despite Western pressure.

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So why no Missile cooperation?
Pakistan and Iran do not co-develop weapons for very specific strategic reasons:

Nuclear Sensitivity: Pakistan is a declared nuclear state that developed its program with significant Western and Chinese components. Openly cooperating with the IRGC—a sanctioned entity—on missile technology would trigger massive international sanctions against Pakistan and jeopardize its remaining ties with the West and the Gulf.

Strategic Silence (The "Ballistic" Standoff): The two countries maintain what analysts call "ballistic silence." Because both have sophisticated missile arsenals, they prefer a "live and let live" arrangement. Joint development would require a level of trust (and sharing of sensitive telemetry/data) that does not exist.

Different Technological Parents: Pakistan’s missile and air technology is a blend of Chinese, American, and indigenous designs. Iran’s IRGC-led missile program is heavily rooted in Soviet/North Korean lineage and increasingly independent indigenous innovation. These systems are not naturally compatible.

The A.Q. Khan Legacy: In the early 2000s, it was revealed that Pakistani scientist A.Q. Khan had leaked nuclear secrets to Iran. The fallout was a massive diplomatic disaster for Pakistan. Since then, the Pakistani military has been extremely careful to avoid any perception of "secondary proliferation" to Tehran to maintain its standing as a "responsible" nuclear power.
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Sources:

1. https://issi.org.pk/pakistan-iran-relations-in-the-evolving-international-environment/
2. https://issi.org.pk/prospects-for-p...ral-cooperation-opportunities-and-challenges/
3. https://cscr.pk/explore/themes/politics-governance/islamabad-navigating-the-convergent-crisis/
4. https://cscr.pk/explore/themes/trad...out-a-win-for-pakistans-inevitable-geography/
5. https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2026/03/...e that energy,approximately 80% of Iran's oil.
6. https://peace-ipsc.org/2025/01/23/o...separatists, with,over both Pakistan and Iran.
7. https://mecouncil.org/blog_posts/pakistans-iran-trap/
8. https://mei.edu/ar/events/iran-and-pakistan-security-diplomacy-and-american-influence/
9. https://www.dawn.com/news/1806806
10. https://www.chathamhouse.org/2024/01/iran-pakistan-tensions-why-further-escalation-unlikely
11. https://www.asiasentinel.com/p/pakistan-two-front-nightmare
12. https://issi.org.pk/press-release-special-event-76-years-of-pakistan-iran-diplomatic-relations/

Anyone thinking it is Pakistan being the belligerent and "Alienating" neighbors. READ THIS.

 

[RescueRanger]

Thank you for this post, which i hope you dont mind me keeping. This is what is missing from diaspora "mental textbooks", hence I will paraphrase parts of it to help explain these bitter realities.

On a side note, based on his comments, I had always assumed Gulbuddin Hekmatyar remained sympathetic towards Islamabad and may still plausibly have been able to exert leverage. Seems not to be the case after all.

You are most welcome my dear brother. I am only here to learn and share what little pathetic bits of information I have. People think me a government tout or propagandist, I am just another patriot.