PAF Future Acquisition Plans

[Pioneer]

China was under military sanctions, but through the 1980s, 1990s, and even 2000s, it was still benefitting from commercially available upstream inputs, like CNCs, instrumentation equipment, and, not least, foreign investment from the US and EU. Many of that FDI came with (due to Chinese gov't policy) know-how transfers (read the book on Apple in China). All that stuff absolutely, 100%, helped them with developing their military technology, at least on the industrial side but, eventually, R&D as well.

So, yeah, the Chinese benefitted quite a bit from the international trading system, more so than Pakistan in many, many respects -- and definitely no less than Turkiye is right now.

The main difference lies in the accumulated industrial base. China's industrial base is much stronger. It's ridiculous to say that a communist country that has long been in opposition to the West receives more support than NATO countries.

 

[MirageV3ff]

Should we anticipate future acquisitions with PL-16 ?

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I can see them being tied to the J-35 acquisition. But only if there's the existence of the export variant and china has another missile in the works. That said, PAF does have a higher probability of getting PL-16s than PL-17s.

 

[puttputt]

The main difference lies in the accumulated industrial base. China's industrial base is much stronger. It's ridiculous to say that a communist country that has long been in opposition to the West receives more support than NATO countries.

Your country's been in opposition with America, and even then, you did get access to relatively significant transfers in technology, know-how, and capital investment from Americans. It's been no different with the Germans and British. It's only now they're all tightening up the screws a little.

Yes, as a NATO power, Turkiye has had theoretical access to lots of sensitive technologies, controlled equipment, and so on. But as they themselves began showing progress in some areas, their access to those inputs came into question. That's why they also had to invest further upstream in developing their own tooling and instrumentation equipment because they could no longer take the traditional Western powers, including the US, for granted.

In any case, for the better part of literally the first 80+ years of the 20th century, your countrymen were in farms and riding bicycles or pulling carts. It just so happened, right when the US and its allies all integrated their supply chains with you, invested in you, and bought at scale from you, that you flipped the lights on and became a hyper-industrialized country. No causal or correlative impacts from having access to the world, eh?

Give me a break.

 

[Pioneer]

Your country's been in opposition with America, and even then, you did get access to relatively significant transfers in technology, know-how, and capital investment from Americans. It's been no different with the Germans and British. It's only now they're all tightening up the screws a little.

Yes, as a NATO power, Turkiye has had theoretical access to lots of sensitive technologies, controlled equipment, and so on. But as they themselves began showing progress in some areas, their access to those inputs came into question. That's why they also had to invest further upstream in developing their own tooling and instrumentation equipment because they could no longer take the traditional Western powers, including the US, for granted.

In any case, for the better part of literally the first 80+ years of the 20th century, your countrymen were in farms and riding bicycles or pulling carts. It just so happened, right when the US and its allies all integrated their supply chains with you, invested in you, and bought at scale from you, that you flipped the lights on and became a hyper-industrialized country. No causal or correlative impacts from having access to the world, eh?

Give me a break.

Let me put it simply.

1. Your industrial base is weak. Can you imagine a group of countries that even need to import urea from China to prevent their people from suffering from hunger? Such arrogant disregard for industrial foundation. Talking about "progress" with a big mouth?

2. You keep mentioning the various forms of support the US provides to China, but you don't mention the Wassenaar Arrangement. China has been excluded from global high-end technology alliances until now. BTW: Turkey and India are both members of the Wassenaar Arrangement. They enjoy the technology shared by the Wassenaar Arrangement. In what areas have you made progress that you believe allows you to disregard the West?

3. The West has invested in many countries and transferred a great deal of technology. China is not an exception. but, the Wassenaar Arrangement is an exception for China.

4. Many countries have never faced the Wassenaar Arrangement. And they receive ample funding and technology from the West. So what allows them to remain invisible in global high-tech exports?

5. Paraphrasing Western narratives is easy. But independent thinking is crucial. ... You haven't faced the most severe blockades. You've also received ample funding and technological support. But what will cause you to disappear from the global innovation index, global high-tech exports, and global high-tech manufacturing?

Someone obsessed with Western narratives, believing that with enough Western money and technology, they could achieve the same level. But I guess he doesn't want to face the Wassenaar Arrangement.

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

You are talking of rubberish nonsense. They are fully Chinese designed, Stop trying to tag all Chinese tech with your Western or Russian daddys, it's a disgrace like what Indians like to say. If that easy, why don't you people go develop your aerospace industry by just copying or designing your aircrafts from some photos say F 22 and F 35, lol.

I know that most probably this would be your response, but inspiring is not bad thing as you assume to mature your aircraft industries, USA/EU did the same after ww2 (operation paperclip)

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Yes they are manufacturing engines from scratch since the Soviet handed over them the mig19/21 designs in 1960-1970s . Pakistan even bought those in early 1980s and 1990s

I am pretty much sure everyone knows this

DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS THE MEANING OF SCRATCH? you know nothing these were modified copies of R series of engines developed by Tumansky design company of cold war era

 

[puttputt]

Let me put it simply.

1. Your industrial base is weak. Can you imagine a group of countries that even need to import urea from China to prevent their people from suffering from hunger? Such arrogant disregard for industrial foundation. Talking about "progress" with a big mouth?

2. You keep mentioning the various forms of support the US provides to China, but you don't mention the Wassenaar Arrangement. China has been excluded from global high-end technology alliances until now. BTW: Turkey and India are both members of the Wassenaar Arrangement. They enjoy the technology shared by the Wassenaar Arrangement. In what areas have you made progress that you believe allows you to disregard the West?

3. The West has invested in many countries and transferred a great deal of technology. China is not an exception. but, the Wassenaar Arrangement is an exception for China.

4. Many countries have never faced the Wassenaar Arrangement. And they receive ample funding and technology from the West. So what allows them to remain invisible in global high-tech exports?

5. Paraphrasing Western narratives is easy. But independent thinking is crucial. ... You haven't faced the most severe blockades. You've also received ample funding and technological support. But what will cause you to disappear from the global innovation index, global high-tech exports, and global high-tech manufacturing?

Someone obsessed with Western narratives, believing that with enough Western money and technology, they could achieve the same level. But I guess he doesn't want to face the Wassenaar Arrangement.

Where did I say our industrial base was strong?

As for Turkiye's membership in the WA; yes, it's a member of the WA, but its actual policymakers and industrialists who have to work in the field to develop solutions tell a more nuanced story. Work with the West just long enough and you can't take their treaties and institutions at face-value -- there are many other rules stacked atop of the foundations. E.g., certain R&D inputs are directly controlled by US regulators such that the US retains the final right to release them, even to WA members. And, in more and more cases, those permits to Turkiye are drying up. That was my point.

Second, China not being part of the WA never stopped Airbus from working with AVIC on helicopters, it didn't stop Apple from working with your various suppliers on precision-manufacturing, it didn't stop many, many upstream suppliers from transferring knowledge to your alloy, steel, composites, and countless other suppliers.

We're not obsessed with Western narratives. It's just that don't drink up the CPC kool-aid and actually read third-party literature, not Commie party handbooks.

Here's what's documented.

"Concurrently, the share of U.S. advanced technology exports to China also increased. In 2020, ATP constituted roughly 19 percent ($30.8 billion) of U.S. exports to China, 59 nearly three times the figure from 2008.60 In 2021, high-tech exports constituted around 33 percent ($49.6 billion) of total exports to China. Of these, about 13 percent ($18.8 billion) were considered sensitive ATP exports. China is not solely or even primarily reliant on the U.S. for ATP imports, however. The U.S. currently ranks fifth in advanced and new technology exports into China, following the EU (constituting more than half of imports), Taiwan (approximately one third), South Korea (one fourth), and Japan (one fifth)."

https://www.hoover.org/sites/default/files/research/docs/Soviet%20PRC%20ATP%20export%20control_Exec%20Sum%5B98%5D%5B94%5D.pdf

During the past decade, the U.S. Commerce Department approved more than $15 billion worth of strategically sensitive U.S. exports to the People’s Republic of China. The exports included equipment that can be used to design nuclear weapons, process nuclear material, machine nuclear weapon components, improve missile designs, build missile components and transmit data from missile tests.

The equipment, by definition, is of great strategic value. Only the highest performing machine tools, instruments, computers and other such items require a Commerce Department export license. This equipment has been placed on the U.S. export control list by U.S. experts who have judged that special care — and government review — is needed before releasing it to foreign countries.

Nevertheless, some of this “dual-use” equipment went directly to leading nuclear, missile and military sites — the main vertebrae of China’s strategic backbone. And several of these Chinese buyers later supplied nuclear, missile and military equipment to Iran and Pakistan.

U.S. Exports to China 1988-1998: Fueling Proliferation

A Report by the Wisconsin Project on Nuclear Arms Control Table of Contents Executive Summary Section I, Part A Dual-use American Equipment Licensed for Export to China, 1988 - 1998 1.1-1.11 Section I, Part B U.S. Equipment Approved for Chinese Nuclear, Missile or Military

www.wisconsinproject.org

I swear to God (a supreme Deity, not a CPC handler), if you respond to me again, I'll drop more and more of this literature to dismantle you, piece by piece. Some of us here have actual real world jobs in the industries and fields you're purpoting expertise in. I suggest you do what your forebearers did in the 1980s and 1990s -- i.e., sit down, shut up, and listen.

 

[Pioneer]

Where did I say our industrial base was strong?

As for Turkiye's membership in the WA; yes, it's a member of the WA, but its actual policymakers and industrialists who have to work in the field to develop solutions tell a more nuanced story. Work with the West just long enough and you can't take their treaties and institutions at face-value -- there are many other rules stacke atop of the foundations. E.g., certain R&D inputs are directly controlled by US regulators such that the US retains the final right to release them, even to WA members. And, in more and more cases, those permits to Turkiye are drying up. That was my point.

Second, China not being part of the WA never stopped Airbus from working with AVIC on helicopters, it didn't stop Apple from working with your various suppliers on precision-manufacturing, it didn't stop many, many upstream suppliers from transferring knowledge to your alloy, steel, composites, and countless other suppliers.

We're not obsessed with Western narratives. It's just that don't drink up the CPC kool-aid. So sit down, tankie.

Calm down, bro. You have western investment and technical support. You even have Chinese investment and Chinese technical support. You are a member of the Wassenaar Arrangement... You should be a high-tech country. Isn't it?

BTW. In 1980, China was manufacturing the Y-10 passenger aircraft. You should do better and develop a better passenger aircraft.

Break away from the Western narrative, withdraw from the Wassenaar Arrangement, reject the CCP narrative, and reject Chinese investment and technology. You are the best!

 

[puttputt]

Calm down, bro. You have western investment and technical support. You even have Chinese investment and Chinese technical support. You are a member of the Wassenaar Arrangement... You should be a high-tech country. Isn't it?

BTW. In 1980, China was manufacturing the Y-10 passenger aircraft. You should do better and develop a better passenger aircraft.

Break away from the Western narrative, withdraw from the Wassenaar Arrangement, reject the CCP narrative, and reject Chinese investment and technology. You are the best!

Okay, what industrial input in Pakistan has China invested in that's not energy or infrastructure? Name and show me which Pakistani supplier is now re-exporting goods from a Chinese-funded factory with Chinese-supplied CNCs back to China. Go ahead, I'll wait. I know for a fact you don't have any good examples, but the examples of the US, EU, and heck even Goddamn Japan doing this for China are endless.

What you've gotten from the world (including your adversary, the US, no less) and what you've given back to the world (including Pakistan) are completely asymmetrical in value and benefit, with China emerging as the net-beneficiary by far.

"This project examines technology transfer from a political-economic geographical perspective through a study of the Chinese automotive industry. Technology catch-up has been the major goal in the Chinese automotive industrial policy. The “exchange market for technology” policy since the 1980s grants foreign carmakers access to the Chinese market in exchange for technology transfer through regulating joint ventures between foreign carmakers and state-owned enterprises."

Technological Innovation and Institutional Transformation: the Chinese Automotive Industry and Regional Development

scholars.cityu.edu.hk

 

[Pioneer]

Okay, what industrial input in Pakistan has China invested in that's not energy or infrastructure? Name and show me which Pakistani supplier is now re-exporting goods from a Chinese-funded factory with Chinese-supplied CNCs back to China. Go ahead, I'll wait. I know for a fact you don't have any good examples, but the examples of the US, EU, and heck even Goddamn Japan doing this for China are endless.

What you've gotten from the world (including your adversary, the US, no less) and what you've given back to the world (including Pakistan) are completely asymmetrical in value and benefit, with no doubt.

Bro, I thought I was talking about Türkiye... You thought I was talking about Pakistan...

So what do you think I mean when I keep talking about "industrial base"? I want to build a memory chip factory in Pakistan. Is that okay? How do you solve the problem of water and electricity?

I recall that recently, China has been collaborating with Pakistan to produce urea. It's a promising start.Isn't it?

 

[puttputt]

Bro, I thought I was talking about Türkiye... You thought I was talking about Pakistan...

So what do you think I mean when I keep talking about "industrial base"? I want to build a memory chip factory in Pakistan. Is that okay? How do you solve the problem of water and electricity?

I recall that recently, China has been collaborating with Pakistan to produce urea. It's a promising start.Isn't it?

Come on, dude, you very well know the last 2-3 posts between us were about Pakistan. Who said anything about chips? I just want one example of Chinese investments going towards a Pakistani manufacturer and that Pakistani manufacturer re-exporting to China. This is literally what the US and EU gave China; what's stopping China from giving this to Pakistan?

 

[Pioneer]

Come on, dude, you very well know the last 2-3 posts between us were about Pakistan. Who said anything about chips? I just want one example of Chinese investments going towards a Pakistani manufacturer and that Pakistani manufacturer re-exporting to China. This is literally what the US and EU gave China; what's stopping China from giving this to Pakistan?

Because your industrial base is too weak, society is unstable, and the level of social development is low...

 

[royalharris]

Come on, dude, you very well know the last 2-3 posts between us were about Pakistan. Who said anything about chips? I just want one example of Chinese investments going towards a Pakistani manufacturer and that Pakistani manufacturer re-exporting to China. This is literally what the US and EU gave China; what's stopping China from giving this to Pakistan?

Many countries are seeking Chinese investment, including the European Union, Southeast Asian countries, and South American countries. What advantage do you have? Think first about how to stabilize domestic public security.
For a country to attract investment, it must first improve its governance, public security, and education standards, so that investors can see the expected returns. No one wants their investment to go down the drain.

Repaying kindness with resentment will ultimately alienate one’s friends. It will not only make the country poorer, but also cause others to look down on it.

 

[puttputt]

Because your industrial base is too weak, society is unstable, and the level of social development is low...

Here you go folks, this is what some Chinese think of us, a country that developed and built the entire nuclear fuel cycle indigenously (with the necessary R&D and industrial inputs to make it happen). But Goddamn, we're too poor and dirty to do any upstream work anywhere else.

Take a good look, brothers, this is what we're dealing with. So, if you wondered why billions of dollars of IPP fees are heading to China each year, this is why.

Many countries are seeking Chinese investment, including the European Union, Southeast Asian countries, and South American countries. What advantage do you have? Think first about how to stabilize domestic public security.

Lol because we're the only ones keeping India off your back as a focused military threat, whereas all those other markets (esp. EU) are contributing to India's growth. Not only that, but US policymakers are also hoping to shift their China-linked supply chains to India so that it can better compete with you economically as well.

But anyways, it's all good, we're finally seeing the truth emerge for what it is and will account for it. May Allah (SWT) free the Uyghurs from you, ameen. You all can gaslight on this forum, but I'm here to set you on fire

 

[Pioneer]

Here you go folks, this is what some Chinese think of us, a country that developed and built the entire nuclear fuel cycle indigenously (with the necessary R&D and industrial inputs to make it happen). But Goddamn, we're too poor and dirty to do any upstream work anywhere else.

Take a good look, brothers, this is what we're dealing with. So, if you wondered why billions of dollars of IPP fees are heading to China each year, this is why.


Lol because we're the only ones keeping India off your back as a focused military threat, whereas all those other markets (esp. EU) are contributing to India's growth. Not only that, but US policymakers are also hoping to shift their China-linked supply chains to India so that it can better compete with you economically as well.

But anyways, it's all good, we're finally seeing the truth emerge for what it is and will account for it. May Allah (SWT) free the Uyghurs from you, ameen.

A minor question: What industries have Turkey and the West invested in Pakistan?