India Has Lost Air Superiority to Pakistan, No Jets Left to Fight

[Ali_Baba]

Indians seem incredibly incompetent in managing their military, which frankly surprises me (but doesn't disappoint me!) considering India's far better industrial and educational base, on top of India's much stable political environment for decades.

The problem ( thankfully) is a human resource quality problem for the Indian Armed Forces. Serving in the military is looked down by both the caste system hierarchy in India, and the middle classes also who prefer their children to have better sounding careers to talk about over tea parties.

I had the opportunity to interact with IAF pilots(Su30MKI) that came to the UK a few years back and the differences to the JF17 jockeys was very distinct to me in terms of human resource quality, and that was from a superficial interaction with them ( I was very impressed with the JF17 pilots questioning of me, once they found out what i did for a living (work in IT) ).

India has a better education system, but the smart people actually want to go into private industry and not serve in the armed forces.

In Pakistan, the middle classes are ok to see their best service in the military and that is reflected in overall better quality leadership of the armed forces( though Pakistan does get to suffer the curse of tin pot dictators like FM Munir that pop up from time to time ).

 

[Ali_Baba]

I didn't mean stronger than India's. I clearly meant the Pakistani economy is stronger now than the Pakistani economy was in 1999.

In 1999, the ratio of the size of the economy between India and Pakistan was 7:1, now it stands at 10:1 and the gap is increasing. I would say Pakistan had a better economy relative to India than Pakistan has now ?

 

[Meengla]

In 1999, the ratio of the size of the economy between India and Pakistan was 7:1, now it stands at 10:1 and the gap is increasing. I would say Pakistan had a better economy relative to India than Pakistan has now ?

Pakistan was ahead of India in many ways through the 80s. My point was only specific to Pakistan's economy, not in comparison with India's economy: The Pakistan of 1999 was less able to afford a war with India then the Pakistan of 2025 was.
Anyway, the supposedly larger economies of India and Bangladesh don't show up in their quality of life. I don't want to guess if they fudge the numbers or not. Enough for me, in the context of this thread, that Pakistan is able to defend itself.

 

[TAC]

To use your words:
Based on the above replies, the only one being butt fucked is you - while you're typing. That is how much sense your replies make - full of delusions and dreams which you're getting while getting butt fucked

I have presented India's view - like or or not - you can keep taking big danda up your butts...

On the contrary, after receiving big danda in 2019 and even more so in 2025 you seem to have developed a liking for it, which is why you said you ‘would take it every day of the week and twice on Sunday’.

 

[TAC]

Think what you want to think - if that helps you sleep better. I have already stated what makes me sleep better - its knowing that GoI will extract its pound of flesh for every innocent citizen killed by act of terrorism. If a few jets is the price to pay - that is fine.

And as far as shamelessness is concerned India is in elementary school while Pakistan is dean of the university. A shameless nation promotes COA to be a "field" marshall when the country is struck in so many places and disproportionate loss of life for the said nation. Its the same shameless nation that gave refuge to OBL and that wants to bleed India by a thousand cuts - because it can never win a conventional war.

That’s about right, when you don’t have a sensible answer to the points made just change the subject and throw in everything including the kitchen sink for good measure. Bet it hurts you every day thinking of your best jets including Ra-fails getting smashed in your own airspace without even knowing what hit them. Apparently they couldn’t even get a shot off in reply. Bet you also expected better from your clown AF after their 2019 humiliation. Saying that you would take those losses every day and twice on Sunday is just pathetic cope & very clear for everyone to see.

 

[Meengla]

Having fighter jets shot down during a conflict makes more perceptual impact than some structures on the ground: People still remember the Serbs shot down an America jet in the 90s war, the Turks shooting down a Russian jet over Syria, and also recently the Iranians shooting down American jets.

 

[Master Chief]

Pakistan economy was/is never stronger .

Bullshit. Pakistan's economy WAS stronger per capita for many years, decades even in the 20th century. India only surpassed Pakistan per capita relatively recently.

 

[Master Chief]

Pakistan was ahead of India in many ways through the 80s. My point was only specific to Pakistan's economy, not in comparison with India's economy: The Pakistan of 1999 was less able to afford a war with India then the Pakistan of 2025 was.
Anyway, the supposedly larger economies of India and Bangladesh don't show up in their quality of life. I don't want to guess if they fudge the numbers or not. Enough for me, in the context of this thread, that Pakistan is able to defend itself.

You're right about the 20th century comparison. The figures support this assertion. GDP per capita is a haram calculation for bhakts so do forgive their uncertainty on this matter.

 

[Yasser76]

The problem ( thankfully) is a human resource quality problem for the Indian Armed Forces. Serving in the military is looked down by both the caste system hierarchy in India, and the middle classes also who prefer their children to have better sounding careers to talk about over tea parties.

I had the opportunity to interact with IAF pilots(Su30MKI) that came to the UK a few years back and the differences to the JF17 jockeys was very distinct to me in terms of human resource quality, and that was from a superficial interaction with them ( I was very impressed with the JF17 pilots questioning of me, once they found out what i did for a living (work in IT) ).

India has a better education system, but the smart people actually want to go into private industry and not serve in the armed forces.

In Pakistan, the middle classes are ok to see their best service in the military and that is reflected in overall better quality leadership of the armed forces( though Pakistan does get to suffer the curse of tin pot dictators like FM Munir that pop up from time to time ).

100% agree with this, comes from the very top and filters down. Our CAS has his faults, but IAF CAS comes across as a clown, even in press conferences, then the boasts and dresses up activity as progress.

PAF CAS quietly gets the job done (but no stranger to self promotion for sure)

If lower IAF ranks see the example of Air Marshal Singh,, ineveitably it encourages unprofessional behaviour and lying. You simply cannot run an armed force on that, integrity is everything in the military

 

[r3alist]

In 1999, the ratio of the size of the economy between India and Pakistan was 7:1, now it stands at 10:1 and the gap is increasing. I would say Pakistan had a better economy relative to India than Pakistan has now ?

Pakistan was ahead of India in many ways through the 80s. My point was only specific to Pakistan's economy, not in comparison with India's economy: The Pakistan of 1999 was less able to afford a war with India then the Pakistan of 2025 was.
Anyway, the supposedly larger economies of India and Bangladesh don't show up in their quality of life. I don't want to guess if they fudge the numbers or not. Enough for me, in the context of this thread, that Pakistan is able to defend itself.

Bullshit. Pakistan's economy WAS stronger per capita for many years, decades even in the 20th century. India only surpassed Pakistan per capita relatively recently.

Pakistans military acquisitions are based on diversified income sources and oblique agreements - that's my understanding.

When you do the economy to economy comparison it doesn't feel like apple's with apples comparison.

India has a whole pension and bureaucratic burden , sellers getting good money and diversified platforms, is it value for money


This discrepancy is at its peak now and it counted for little during op sind. Because they fund very differently, ultimately purchases get done

Going forward Pakistans purchases will be likely with friendly countries even more, china and turkey, Indian purchases are a tightrope so as not to offend Russia Europe or USA and they are expensive.

 

[Meengla]

Going forward Pakistans purchases will be likely with friendly countries even more, china and turkey, Indian purchases are a tightrope so as not to offend Russia Europe or USA and they are expensive.

From watching a few Indian analysts, it doesn't seem like India even has the sellers with good numbers of 5th generation fighter planes available to sell for India's needs. While the options for Pakistan, through China alone, are virtually limitless. Pakistan also played its diplomatic hand deftly to upgrade Pakistan's 70+ ageing F-16s to make them near Rafale quality ones. What India is able to do--and seems like trying to do--is to use its deeper pockets to buy 4.5 generation in large numbers to have at least something--anything--to counter Pakistan and China using the 'Quantity is Quality' doctrine.

 

[Yasser76]

Pakistans military acquisitions are based on diversified income sources and oblique agreements - that's my understanding.

When you do the economy to economy comparison it doesn't feel like apple's with apples comparison.

India has a whole pension and bureaucratic burden , sellers getting good money and diversified platforms, is it value for money


This discrepancy is at its peak now and it counted for little during op sind. Because they fund very differently, ultimately purchases get done

Going forward Pakistans purchases will be likely with friendly countries even more, china and turkey, Indian purchases are a tightrope so as not to offend Russia Europe or USA and they are expensive.

Yup, guess that is one good thing about overarching military influence is that we try and get the kit we need, not what keeps polticians happy

India has made some really bizarre purchases like 6 Apaches for the Army, only 15 Chinooks, then just 36 (now 28) Rafales, same US drones for Army, Navy and Air Force. Tiny numbers for such a country and much to do with politics and service rivalry then a real strategy

 

[r3alist]

From watching a few Indian analysts, it doesn't seem like India even has the sellers with good numbers of 5th generation fighter planes available to sell for India's needs. While the options for Pakistan, through China alone, are virtually limitless. Pakistan also played its diplomatic hand deftly to upgrade Pakistan's 70+ ageing F-16s to make them near Rafale quality ones. What India is able to do--and seems like trying to do--is to use its deeper pockets to buy 4.5 generation in large numbers to have at least something--anything--to counter Pakistan and China using the 'Quantity is Quality' doctrine.

The f16 upgrades give them a whole new additional relevance, let's see about link 17,18,15 whatever

Yup, guess that is one good thing about overarching military influence is that we try and get the kit we need, not what keeps polticians happy

India has made some really bizarre purchases like 6 Apaches for the Army, only 15 Chinooks, then just 36 (now 28) Rafales, same US drones for Army, Navy and Air Force. Tiny numbers for such a country and much to do with politics and service rivalry then a real strategy

Yes I didn't want to necessarily praise the military outright, but every time India questions how funding is done not because it won't get purchased but because the military sustains itself,with some government support, and there might be some under the table quid pro quo which they are curious about


The j35, china will now be eager to help Pakistan acquire these, money is not the stumbling block, future maintenance is important, but the Chinese are pragmatic and will fully support the acquisition at the right time, actually no rush to disturb the status quo, the prep work is being done

 

[LC150]

Ya - I don't have a response for that. See when you start bringing something like rape in the "goading" match that you want to have, it stops being human. I can only say that either you're not of age or you are a danger to society - someone throwing around rape is just mentally disabled. FWIW, it also says a lot about your upbringing and your relation to your faith - whatever that might be. I am sorry for you and I hope you get better

Ok..

But your military still lost… big time..



The end

 

[Yasser76]

The f16 upgrades give them a whole new additional relevance, let's see about link 17,18,15 whatever



Yes I didn't want to necessarily praise the military outright, but every time India questions how funding is done not because it won't get purchased but because the military sustains itself,with some government support, and there might be some under the table quid pro quo which they are curious about


The j35, china will now be eager to help Pakistan acquire these, money is not the stumbling block, future maintenance is important, but the Chinese are pragmatic and will fully support the acquisition at the right time, actually no rush to disturb the status quo, the prep work is being done

I so wish I am not on holiday or travelling for work when the first J-35 lands, just to see reaction of Indians on here and their press.

I can already imagine

"F-35 Chinese Copy saaaar!"
"SU-30 can detect it as ACM Sing said so saaaar"
"PAF have no money for fuel to fly saaaaaar!"
"India waiting for HAL VAMCA (Very Advanced Medium Aircraft) 7th Gen saaaar"

The collective meltdown will be as bad as May 7th....