PAF F-16 | Discussions

[Cookie Monster]

Tbh, in terms of new build aircraft, yes, the PAF probably does not have the funds. However, buying V Kits at full cost ($25m?) plus a used airframe, at probably the same cost, brings you a capability at a cost less than a J10(which i suspect are subsidised) and also without all the added costs of infrastructure. Those F-16s will also likely outlive the J-10s we buy lol in terms of airframe life

I would still say that unless they are subsidized by US…PAF shouldn’t get them(as much as I love the F16)…
…the only other possibility that should be considered without a subsidized price is if AIM120D is being offered(integration with the whole fleet)…since that would give a massive edge.

Any other scenario than that…and IMO geopolitical considerations supersede anything else. Given the tight control of F16s and the past history with facing roadblocks due to sanctions or to please India…
…and the fact that PAF has already purchased and integrated J10s…it’s better to stick with that and build numbers.
Pakistan isn’t like Qatar…and can’t afford to have a squadron of this and a squadron that.

 

[studsmart]

Time for pakistan to have cutting edge or modern American military equipment is gone, done and closed

 

[Ak01]

I would still say that unless they are subsidized by US…PAF shouldn’t get them(as much as I love the F16)…
…the only other possibility that should be considered without a subsidized price is if AIM120D is being offered(integration with the whole fleet)…since that would give a massive edge.

Any other scenario than that…and IMO geopolitical considerations supersede anything else. Given the tight control of F16s and the past history with facing roadblocks due to sanctions or to please India…
…and the fact that PAF has already purchased and integrated J10s…it’s better to stick with that and build numbers.
Pakistan isn’t like Qatar…and can’t afford to have a squadron of this and a squadron that.

Yes, but the purchase and integration of J-10s does not beat the 4 decades of F-16 integration, support and use. I do not believe there will be any difficulties in absorbing F-16V's, it is entirely designed to be a smooth and easy transition.

I don't actually see any solid argument other than sanctions/support for the PAF not upgrading its current F-16's. Really, acquiring some used airframes, with the entire supply of spare parts and equipment would do more to support the F-16s. Imagine replacing all of the earlier airframes or the ADF's, keep them in storage for cannibalisation, while having european airframes take their duties over upgraded with V kits.

120d is off the table, but any F-16V work i believe will come with a nice package of Turkish AAM's so there's that too.

In terms of tight controls and end use restrictions- i think this is all overblown and also a means of easing tensions when it comes to use of the equipment. When the US said it sold us F-16s for CT use post Balakot, is anyone stupid enough to believe that we werent able to use these against India? Really? Did the ttp build up an air force that, at the time, necessitated the biggest AMRAAM export order in the history of AMRAAM ever? Infact, i am slowly becoming more inclined to believe we recieved HARMs too, but showing of these would set off some serious sirens accross the border- i say this because i have seen american intelligence reports about the PAF, citing HARMs in inventory...

 

[MirageV3ff]

I would still say that unless they are subsidized by US…PAF shouldn’t get them(as much as I love the F16)…
…the only other possibility that should be considered without a subsidized price is if AIM120D is being offered(integration with the whole fleet)…since that would give a massive edge.

Any other scenario than that…and IMO geopolitical considerations supersede anything else. Given the tight control of F16s and the past history with facing roadblocks due to sanctions or to please India…
…and the fact that PAF has already purchased and integrated J10s…it’s better to stick with that and build numbers.
Pakistan isn’t like Qatar…and can’t afford to have a squadron of this and a squadron that.

We do have quite a decent amount of jets that need retiring, and these F-16s at the very least allow Pakistan to train with NATO air forces and even the US airforce. A diversified fleet is a good thing, we've already got the infrastructure to support these birds.

I do agree that if block V upgrades are persued, at the very least they should try and get AIM-120Ds

 

[Cookie Monster]

Yes, but the purchase and integration of J-10s does not beat the 4 decades of F-16 integration, support and use. I do not believe there will be any difficulties in absorbing F-16V's, it is entirely designed to be a smooth and easy transition.

I don't actually see any solid argument other than sanctions/support for the PAF not upgrading its current F-16's. Really, acquiring some used airframes, with the entire supply of spare parts and equipment would do more to support the F-16s. Imagine replacing all of the earlier airframes or the ADF's, keep them in storage for cannibalisation, while having european airframes take their duties over upgraded with V kits.

120d is off the table, but any F-16V work i believe will come with a nice package of Turkish AAM's so there's that too.

In terms of tight controls and end use restrictions- i think this is all overblown and also a means of easing tensions when it comes to use of the equipment. When the US said it sold us F-16s for CT use post Balakot, is anyone stupid enough to believe that we werent able to use these against India? Really? Did the ttp build up an air force that, at the time, necessitated the biggest AMRAAM export order in the history of AMRAAM ever? Infact, i am slowly becoming more inclined to believe we recieved HARMs too, but showing of these would set off some serious sirens accross the border- i say this because i have seen american intelligence reports about the PAF, citing HARMs in inventory...

As I stated before…I personally love F16…and would personally love to see the V upgrade…
…and yes I know PAF has decades of experience with it so it would be ideal to go that route.
But it’s also a fact that J10 happened bcuz of difficulties with F16…if it was always as easy and smooth as u r suggesting then there was no need for J10. They are both in the same category.

All I’m saying is that…given the previous difficulties…and US/India growing alliance(bcuz of China’s rise) as well as increased lobbying(Indian money flowing in to US politician’s pockets)…it’s better to just go down the path that is already being walked(J10)…
…rather than “2 kishti ke sawaar”.

The capability F16V offers…and how easy it would be across the PAF to absorb(it would essentially serve as a force multiplier) isn’t lost on anyone…but at full price…better to spend that money/resources on J10(just my opinion).

 

[Samurai]

You're right. In any case, same idea: buy the hardware that's already available, such as mothballed AH-1Zs (both PAA plus ex-USMC) and UH-1Ys, stored MRAPs, and get permits for upgrading F-16s and buying second-hand Hercules.

The U.S. is moving towards transactional ties with everyone, so Pakistan should keep a 2-year window with every acquisition plan involving America.

However, if we want to stretch things, then secure permits for any ITAR input involved in 3rd party arms, such as TAI or PZL-manufactured Black Hawks, or Leonardo AW249 and AW149, and so on. Whether we get those or not is a different story, but we should ensure we have access to the inputs if necessary.

Man I am really wishing for PAF to go for F16V upgrade for its older platforms or as you mentioned PAF getting the green signal to upgrade its older F16s from the Turkish Ozgur like program. Personally, I really love the F16 platform and hope that PAF gets on the good side of US and upgrade its F16 fleet along with the Viper choppers.

 

[Quwa]

Yes, but the purchase and integration of J-10s does not beat the 4 decades of F-16 integration, support and use. I do not believe there will be any difficulties in absorbing F-16V's, it is entirely designed to be a smooth and easy transition.

I don't actually see any solid argument other than sanctions/support for the PAF not upgrading its current F-16's. Really, acquiring some used airframes, with the entire supply of spare parts and equipment would do more to support the F-16s. Imagine replacing all of the earlier airframes or the ADF's, keep them in storage for cannibalisation, while having european airframes take their duties over upgraded with V kits.

120d is off the table, but any F-16V work i believe will come with a nice package of Turkish AAM's so there's that too.

In terms of tight controls and end use restrictions- i think this is all overblown and also a means of easing tensions when it comes to use of the equipment. When the US said it sold us F-16s for CT use post Balakot, is anyone stupid enough to believe that we werent able to use these against India? Really? Did the ttp build up an air force that, at the time, necessitated the biggest AMRAAM export order in the history of AMRAAM ever? Infact, i am slowly becoming more inclined to believe we recieved HARMs too, but showing of these would set off some serious sirens accross the border- i say this because i have seen american intelligence reports about the PAF, citing HARMs in inventory...

I think the oddity has been the PAF's inability to get used airframes, even when it could buy new F-16s without a hitch (late 2000s and early 2010s, for example). If not for US controls, I'm 100% sure the PAF would've gone taken the Mirage III/5 way with the F-16s, i.e., get used airframes, request LM to set up a MRO facility at PAC (akin to TAI), and run a big fleet (150 across existing A/Bs, new C/Ds, and any used A/B/C/Ds).

 

[Yasser76]

I think the oddity has been the PAF's inability to get used airframes, even when it could buy new F-16s without a hitch (late 2000s and early 2010s, for example). If not for US controls, I'm 100% sure the PAF would've gone taken the Mirage III/5 way with the F-16s, i.e., get used airframes, request LM to set up a MRO facility at PAC (akin to TAI), and run a big fleet (150 across existing A/Bs, new C/Ds, and any used A/B/C/Ds).

Yeah, missed a trick there now that Ukraine/Chile swooped up many.

Denmark, Netherlands, Norway, Belgium of course got rid of many. Still a chance left, exoeically if Ukraine drys up but not sure, also US may ony want big deals direct with themselves, days of helping out allies is over

 

[Quwa]

Yeah, missed a trick there now that Ukraine/Chile swooped up many.

Denmark, Netherlands, Norway, Belgium of course got rid of many. Still a chance left, exoeically if Ukraine drys up but not sure, also US may ony want big deals direct with themselves, days of helping out allies is over

The used airframes keep showing up.

If not PW Block-25/32, the PAF can set up shop for ex-USAF Block-30s (maybe pair with a new-build Block-70 order).

The key draw for these used C/Ds is that LM offers a SLEP that can add 6,000 hours to these planes, which makes a major upgrade like the F-16V or Ozgur worth it from a longevity standpoint.

In any case, I don't think the PAF ignored or dismissed used F-16s when, literally, they'll get used C-130s or even used T-37s.

There must've been some US controls keeping the PAF from used airframes.

Perhaps it started out as a way to exact maximum commercial benefit out of Pakistan (forcing the PAF to buy new), and then shifted into a means for leverage or maybe a strategic consideration to not give the PAF too much of an advantage against the IAF.

IMO, the latter (not giving the PAF a serious advantage against the IAF) may have been a real factor. Otherwise, the PAF would've easily stacked 150 F-16s against the IAF, on top of the JF-17s.

 

[Ak01]

The used airframes keep showing up.

If not PW Block-25/32, the PAF can set up shop for ex-USAF Block-30s (maybe pair with a new-build Block-70 order).

The key draw for these used C/Ds is that LM offers a SLEP that can add 6,000 hours to these planes, which makes a major upgrade like the F-16V or Ozgur worth it from a longevity standpoint.

Of course, Ozgur would be ideal in that it'd make the F-16s compatible with Turkish munitions, esp. key ones like the SOM ALCM.

i believe they will soon release a further extension-They're on record saying they can push to 16,000hrs if someone wanted. Isnt that absolutely insane

 

[Quwa]

i believe they will soon release a further extension-They're on record saying they can push to 16,000hrs if someone wanted. Isnt that absolutely insane

Hence if the PAF wants to keep the F-16 going, its top priority should be to gobble up as many used Cs and Ds as possible: Block-25, 30, or 32.

But the fact that it can't do something as obvious (when it has every precedent of doing so) should tell us something about where the US' head is at with regards to Pakistan.

There are things the PAF can do to to very quickly nullify any advantage the IAF has, and at a fairly low cost. The US won't let it happen, at least on its watch (e.g., used F-16s).

 

[Ak01]

Hence if the PAF wants to keep the F-16 going, its top priority should be to gobble up as many used Cs and Ds as possible: Block-25, 30, or 32.

But the fact that it can't do something as obvious (when it has every precedent of doing so) should tell us something about where the US' head is at with regards to Pakistan.

There are things the PAF can do to to very quickly nullify any advantage the IAF has, and at a fairly low cost. The US won't let it happen, at least on its watch (e.g., used F-16s).

but as you mentioned, any victories for trump, he will take, itll take some serious grafting, but i think its doable. Though, i wonder whether lockheed has the appetite, as much as they're not getting the sales with India yet, i dont think lockheed will want to poke them for the sake of staying in their good graces in hopes of future arms sales. It will have to be via TAI and even then i feel lockheed will attempt to distance themselves

 

[Yasser76]

but as you mentioned, any victories for trump, he will take, itll take some serious grafting, but i think its doable. Though, i wonder whether lockheed has the appetite, as much as they're not getting the sales with India yet, i dont think lockheed will want to poke them for the sake of staying in their good graces in hopes of future arms sales. It will have to be via TAI and even then i feel lockheed will attempt to distance themselves

Nope, Lockheed sells to whoever they are allowed to, happily. At one point selling to both India and Pakistan, Turkey and Greece, Indonesia and Australia, Egypt and Israel. The barriers and reluctance comes at a political level, not at a boardroom level.

 

[Ak01]

Nope, Lockheed sells to whoever they are allowed to, happily. At one point selling to both India and Pakistan, Turkey and Greece, Indonesia and Australia, Egypt and Israel. The barriers and reluctance comes at a political level, not at a boardroom level.

I disagree.

Vendors will always choose the bigger fry. It looks bad for the company. The entire reason Lockheed renamed the F-16 to the F-21 for India is to distance themselves from Pakistan.

This is the same reason saab on the record said they would halt any new contracts with Pakistan for the sake of pursuing India.

Lockheed knows, any sale to Pakistan has the potential to throw off much bigger Indian deals for good. A few hundred million dollar contract with Pakistan is not worth the bigger impact it will face in India.

 

[Cool_Soldier]

There are rumors previous deal is going to resumed for F16 and attack helicopter. It looks Trump will try to hold both Pakistan and India in hands . But now it wont be effective .