Why Secularism will Worsen Pakistan’s security situation

[mythbuster]

Literal meaning of religion is ' look back ' ....religion is retrogressive in it's nature ......I n case of Pakistan , religion did provide the glue to bond the nation together to some extent ... question is ! Is religion a desirable glue ?...... morality is subjective ..... morality build on logic and reason is more lasting than the divine mumbo jumbo .

 

[politicallyinterested]

Abandoning either our religious identity, cultural identity or national identity is not something that we should consider or something that is tolerable

I'm sure if you had more interaction with the masses back home you'd end up agreeing with me but Pakistan has weaponised religion in a way that has backfired and mentally destroyed the masses. This isn't an anti-religion stance but it's a stance calling for reform.

You say to preserve cultural or national identity but the zombies there have done none of that, instead they used religion to destroy it, their identity is just "we wuz ummah all muslim sar no difference sem2sem" their understanding of geopolitics, and social/national relations is regressive, to be a beghairat and cuck themselves.

Pretty much identityless zombie extremists who consider nationalism or national interests to be an evil thing. They literally think being a cuck for other countries and ethnicties is Islam and individual identity or interests is bad...

 

[Oldenwisdom...قول بزرگ]

Secularism doesn't mean you become an atheist, it just means seperating state from religion so there is no bias in governance. It can be done tastefully and enhance Pakistaniyat and bring everyone closer.

Short answer WRONG!

Long answer, it tears up and fragments the society into its constituent parts, while taking power away from it by a minority, ruling vicariously as a political class that further endows its agency from those with money wealth to manipulate the mandate for an outcome favorable to its cause. All the while the society is fed hollow slogans

But that would be going nowhere really because we're talking about agency here...
And that is the fundamental issue here.
Separation of church and state is not a native concern.
Islam provides NO AGENCY to clergy!
Islam doesn't designate a vested political class either.

So how did we get here... it is because of internal working in Europe and their social structures. A tiered society deprived of representation. So how did they go about it? They resorted to a representation via proxy...

To do a separation of church and state is also not possible when NEVER in Islam church or Mosque(Masjid) taxed the masses for its operations. Whereas Church did and does... it remains either a deductible donation or in some European states The state collects on behalf of the Church.
Doing so for Islam is an innovation and antithesis of what Islam and a Muslim stands for...

For a Muslim, represents himself and is simultaneously religious. Is connected politically to his own through his paternity. Considers all the rest distinct, yet equal. There is no specific niche to designate some with a higher weightage because of their pedigree.

It is a false and concocted narrative... that take away power and agency from people for a wild goose chase.

 

[mythbuster]

Let's stop with the historical reimagining, we all know what he did

It took decades for some rebalancing to come back to Turkey, where a Muslim women could simply go to school or university and not be targeted y the secular extremists

Regardless of wealth or GDP their should be religious and cultural red lines for any peoples

Pakistan needs to work out it's problems, but not be willing to lose it's religious or cultural identity into the process

You don't want to loose your cultural and religious identity , that's fine .....I will appreciate if you can tell the salient features of our religious and cultural identity and why it's worth keeping .

 

[Oldenwisdom...قول بزرگ]

Literal meaning of religion is ' look back ' ....religion is retrogressive in it's nature

"Deen" is faith and way of life

......I n case of Pakistan , religion did provide the glue to bond the nation together to some extent

look at it the wrong way ... get wrong results... A way of life liberating from worship of creation, life in darkness and protection from oppression.

... question is ! Is religion a desirable glue ?...... morality is subjective .....

It isn't subjective once it is pegged. In case of Islam with the devine judgement!

morality build on logic and reason is more lasting than the divine mumbo jumbo .

One established is only a progression of adhering to laid law.
Things get dark very quickly for your choice of mortality maybe mumbo jumbo to me ...
Eating carion, burning widows, revering dead and shamans... looking at sky for distinction and permission.
You come out of that and keep running to the next extreme on a pendulum that would swing you and yours back to things you call regressive in summation.

 

[Oldenwisdom...قول بزرگ]

You don't want to loose your cultural and religious identity , that's fine .....I will appreciate if you can tell the salient features of our religious and cultural identity and why it's worth keeping .

This is exhibit A for a secular...
Belongs to nothing, stands for nothing!

Congratulations. Mythra!

 

[hussain0216]

You don't want to loose your cultural and religious identity , that's fine .....I will appreciate if you can tell the salient features of our religious and cultural identity and why it's worth keeping .

I was born In and live in the west

50-40 years ago, the people in the west turned to Muslims and told us to assimilate

Not intergrate, which means learn the language, understand how to work a d live in the west, but be yourselves

But to ASSIMILATE, ie be like us.
Act like us, eat like us, have relationships like us, drink like us

And Muslims because of our faith and values for the majority, resisted and said no,
We must integrate, but we cannot assimilate

At the time all we had was religious and cultural affirmation and arguments


Go forward 40 years and it's 2025 now and in the west their is a disaster brewing
The family system has collapsed
Divorce has sky rocketed
Debauchery is rampant
The cultural and value system has collapsed

WOmen are encouraged to act masculine and pursue education and career above family
As a result that's what they do but they don't stop sleeping around, which is also the default relationship system now


They spend their formative years and 20's jumping from one relationship to another, messing up their minds and outlook and picking up baggage and trauma until they are forced to settle in their 30s

They get married, and divorced typically within 7 or so years and the birth rate has collapsed x causing a demographic crisis that is being filled through migration, which is then causing social fallout


I only a minority of men are actually successful in the dating pool, those with looks, money, body and the lower 30% of men are simply out of the game



We can see the consequences of lack of faith, values and morals before us

The consequences on the family system and everything around us

As Muslims we need to smart enough to not follow in the same destructive path

And understand THOSE WHO MAINTAIN THEIR FAITH, VALUE, CULTURE AND FAMILY SYSTEM will set themselves up for the future

 

[MH.Yang]

Before you post highly divisive and inflammatory opinions - please familiarise yourself with the three concepts for managing personal beliefs:

1. Atheism - where the state bans and actively penalises people for religious beliefs e.g. China, North Korea

2. Theocracy - where the state promotes a particular belief system over others and might even punish alternative beliefs e.g. Iran, Israel

3. Secularism - where the state doesn’t promote, police or suppress religion.

It’s no surprise that religion is strong in secular and democratic countries. USA, South Korea, Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore etc being the classic example of this.

Religion is not prohibited in China.
China only prohibits religious involvement in political activities.

 

[MH.Yang]

A common misconception is that by secularising the country, religious extremist groups like TTP/ISKP will lose support, improving the security and economic situation of Pakistan.

The reality is, terrorism in Pakistan has no ideology; it is a result of genuine sentiments of vulnerable segments of society being exploited by malicious foreign actors to do their bidding (like destroying P3s and F-7s).

Removing Islam from Pakistan will not remove these sentiments, nor will such an undignified act of self hatred pacify the foreign hands behind the terrorists. (Rather, the world will laugh at you for surrendering your core ideology with such cowardice).

If Pakistan become secular, instead of facing a single religous terrorist group (TTP), the state would be fractured along the lines of its 60+ ethnicities, each with their own terrorist outfit. Imagine instead of just TTP, you have BLA, SRA on steroids?

As long as there is a largely illiterate and poor population constantly being exposed to hostile propaganda exemplified by genuine failures of governance, there will ALWAYS be a recruitment base for foreign controlled terrorist groups.

So what happens next?

The state would Balkanize along ethnic lines. Then the Indians would swoop in, dispose of their useful secular ethno-nationalist idiots, and embark on an Israel-style program of settler colonialism, just like they already are in the secularised occupied Kashmir valley. In the west, the militant Pashtuns and Baloch would be genocided Gaza-style and similarly replaced with Indian settler colonists. At best, the new ethnic states can hope to live as undignified slaves of India, like the Bangladeshis have for most of their history. (So much for the Sindhudeshis gaining freedom from UP-Bihari foreigners…)

There is no benefit to secularism - for Pakistan, it is as absurd an ideology as khwarji extremism is.

Instead, the state should strictly enforce moderate Islam, emphasizing the core principles of deen to ensure social harmony.

I agree with your comments. A drastic change in a country's values will inevitably lead to disruption or even collapse of the social order.

In 1979 the Chinese government announced that it was abandoning fundamentalist communism and taking a new path that was half-capitalist and half-socialist. This behavior caused the collapse of values and beliefs of Chinese people throughout the era. Social security rapidly deteriorated, crimes became more and more frequent, and people's morals rapidly degenerated. Throughout the 1980s and 1990s, China sank into misery. It was not until twenty years later, when the new generation became the backbone of our society, that these conditions were completely resolved.

Major values reforms may not necessarily have major gains, but they are bound to have major costs.

 

[mythbuster]

I was born In and live in the west

50-40 years ago, the people in the west turned to Muslims and told us to assimilate

Not intergrate, which means learn the language, understand how to work a d live in the west, but be yourselves

But to ASSIMILATE, ie be like us.
Act like us, eat like us, have relationships like us, drink like us

And Muslims because of our faith and values for the majority, resisted and said no,
We must integrate, but we cannot assimilate

At the time all we had was religious and cultural affirmation and arguments


Go forward 40 years and it's 2025 now and in the west their is a disaster brewing
The family system has collapsed
Divorce has sky rocketed
Debauchery is rampant
The cultural and value system has collapsed

WOmen are encouraged to act masculine and pursue education and career above family
As a result that's what they do but they don't stop sleeping around, which is also the default relationship system now


They spend their formative years and 20's jumping from one relationship to another, messing up their minds and outlook and picking up baggage and trauma until they are forced to settle in their 30s

They get married, and divorced typically within 7 or so years and the birth rate has collapsed x causing a demographic crisis that is being filled through migration, which is then causing social fallout


I only a minority of men are actually successful in the dating pool, those with looks, money, body and the lower 30% of men are simply out of the game



We can see the consequences of lack of faith, values and morals before us

The consequences on the family system and everything around us

As Muslims we need to smart enough to not follow in the same destructive path

And understand THOSE WHO MAINTAIN THEIR FAITH, VALUE, CULTURE AND FAMILY SYSTEM will set themselves up for the future

What you are afraid of and the values you are advocating for are no different than the ones conservatives all over the world share ..... your problems stem from identity crisis ......you want to live up to your identity ..... question is ! Do we really have to live our lives the way our identity is asking us to live ?

 

[Oldenwisdom...قول بزرگ]

What you are afraid of and the values you are advocating for are no different than the ones conservatives all over the world share ..... your problems stem from identity crisis ......you want to live up to your identity ..... question is ! Do we really have to live our lives the way our identity is asking us to live ?

Talk about projection... him retaining his values is going through identity crisis and you with none such has an identity... ideology?
Are you going through a bout of depression or anxiety?

 

[mythbuster]

Talk about projection... him retaining his values is going through identity crisis and you with none such has an identity... ideology?
Are you going through a bout of depression or anxiety?

I am still pondering at your mumbo jumbo ... unfortunately , couldn't come up with any answer.... forgive me for that .

 

[That_Guy]

Some saying Pakistan needs Islam. Which Islam? The Wahhabi Islam? The Deobandi Islam? The Al-Hadees Islam? The Bralve Islam? The Twelver Shia Islam? The Fiver Shia Islam? Ismailia? One of the various Sufi sects?

I can tell you right now, with how divided Pakistan is along sect lines, any group's interpretations being imposed will cause the others to fight back.

You have no idea what you're asking.

Also, secularism doesn't mean the absence of religion, or atheism. It's less French secularism thats being proposed, and more Canadian secularism Pakistan needs, where religious beliefs are respected and even celebrated, instead of being shunned and hidden away.

Pakistan is one of the few countries in the world that, while having a mandatory muslim identity, cannot choose to play favorites, thus a custom form of secularism is needed.

 

[Lulldapull]

The westerners/ Zionist bastards causing all these dramay in our society since funding CIA bhatta Zia-ul-Fuqq harami, we never had religious strife in our ancient society.

You go to Taxila there is Zoroastrian fire temple next to hindu temple in a Buddhist city.

Kamal hae no?

What went wrong?

 

[Oldenwisdom...قول بزرگ]

You have no idea what you're asking.

Also, secularism doesn't mean the absence of religion, or atheism. It's less French secularism thats being proposed, and more Canadian secularism Pakistan needs, where religious beliefs are respected and even celebrated, instead of being shunned and hidden away.

It is metastasis of the same...
A niche to control by other means.
It could be communism, capitalism or any such ism... they're to each their religion!

Pakistan is one of the few countries in the world that, while having a mandatory muslim identity, cannot choose to play favorites, thus a custom form of secularism is needed.

No. Vested power must end! It is a salami slicing on values... it is the most fundamental corruption!
Duping people for their mandate and removing them from it...