Why Secularism will Worsen Pakistan’s security situation

[M. Sarmad]

A decade ago, merely uttering the word secularism on PDF, asserting that Jinnah’s vision for Pakistan was inherently secular, or pointing out that Allama Iqbal declared Islam and secularism to be compatible would have provoked a storm of criticism, staunch opposition, and even torrents of abuse. It is reassuring to witness a shift, where such discussions no longer meet the same vehement resistance.

But unfortunately, the stark reality is that this issue is now moot. Any attempt to extricate religion from Pakistani politics now would only accelerate the disintegration of an artificially devised nation—constructed upon imposed, inorganic constructs and ideological frameworks rather than on organically cultivated bonds such as a shared language, culture, and historical heritage....

 

[_Arabia_]

If Pakistan genuinely wanted to be an Islamic state, it should have adopted Arabic as its national language and replaced all Hindu traditions in the country with Arab traditions. The truth is, they never truly wanted to be seen as an Islamic state on the global stage. They recognize the pride associated with being Hindu and Indian, knowing that India and Hinduism are powerful identities, whereas Islam and Arab is not.

Ok, troll. Explains why Hinduism is confined to India and a few tiny pockets elsewhere while Islam is the largest religion on the planet and the majority religion in 60 + nations while a sizeable minority in many more.

Including in your very own India where some 250 million Muslims are found.

How many local Hindus in the Arab world or rest of the Islamic world outside of South Asia and Bali (on top of my head)? Zero. Or close to it. At least in the Arab world and West Asia/MENA there have never been any Hindus.

So much for "powerful identities" and "pride".

Carry on trolling.

BTW, I have no problem with Hindus or any non-Muslims. Your pathetic trolling in this thread is just that, trolling. Should have ignored your nonsense posts altogether.

 

[PakAl]

Why are “foreign powers” so easily able to use religion to divide the country?

Should you not unite behind a philosophy that is not so easily manipulated?

What is your plan beyond wishful thinking?

Pakistan doesn't follow any philosophy, except philosophy of corruption, betrayal, bribery and bending over to foreign powers. This is why we are in this situation. We need to declare education emergency in Pakistan, increase our literacy rate to over 90%, that is college+ graduates, teach people ethics, morals, values, basic Islamic values, Pakistan naziriyah, peace, unity, hard work, basic economy and how to build a nation. After a few decades we will witness a good change.

 

[_Arabia_]

Saudi Arabia is an educated effective society, if it takes 1 year to make a change in Saudi Arabia, it will take 30 years in Pakistan. This is why we cannot implement effective changes.

Education is the crucial thing here.

When you see Taliban and their idiotic laws (that have nothing to do with Islam), for instance the banning of women education, it is an active attempt to keep half of the population stupid and ignorant. Thus making them easy to control.

Also lack of education and ignorance often leads to extremes. Moderation is the way forward.

I think that Pakistan's problems are much deeper than just secularism or Islamic. They are just words as I wrote.

Corruption, lack of education (ignorance, illiteracy), poverty, internal divisions, diversity (diversity is good if the state is strong - if weak it often gives rise to trouble - see the Baloch/Pashtun separatism/discontent), lack of genuine economic progress etc.

Only way forward is economic development. Look at China and their journey. No reason why Pakistan or anyone else for that matter cannot do something similar in the future.

Good leadership is important but also organic improvement/development regionally by honest and hard working people.

 

[_Arabia_]

I have no issue with Muslims or Islam either, but I was specifically referring to Indian, Pakistani, and Bangladeshi Muslims. These are communities that converted to Islam, and there is a certain stigma associated with being a converted Muslim, which often makes them more radical in their beliefs.

More nonsense from you. Everyone is "converted". There are no recognized caste systems in Islam. People don't think that way at all. Chechens who are fairly recent converts (400-200 years) or Bosnians (400-500 years) are good examples of that. As are Indonesians, Malaysians and other South East Asians who became Muslims due to Arabian traders and missionaries/Sufis from Yemen and Saudi Arabia mostly. Starting some 800-900 years ago.

Also some of the first Muslim communities in the world were founded in South Asia due to millennia old trade ties with Arabia. In places like Sindh and South India.

You yourself, if you are a Hindu, are a convert. Hinduism came from abroad (Central Asia) if I am not wrong. Local South Asians/Dravidians had other religions prior to Hinduism. People of the IVC were not Hindus for instance. We don't know much about their religion, language or anything but they had a reverence of bulls (if I am not wrong) which there is also evidence was the same in contemporary cultures/civilizations in Arabia such as Sumer, DIlmun, Magan etc.

Point is there is no difference between a Muslim Indian and a Hindu Indian. Both are as Indian as the other.

Or do you view all 250 million Muslim Indians as "Arab implants" and "Arabized" traitors?

By that same token, how do South Indian Dravidians view North Indians? As invaders and foreign implants as well?

 

[M. Sarmad]

In India, the identities of Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, and Buddhists are deeply intertwined with the Indian identity since these religions originated there. However, Pakistan's case is different—there is no singular, unifying identity rooted in its land, like Hinduism in India or Islam in Arabia.

Bharat, vastly more diverse than Pakistan, has embraced ethnic and regional diversity, yet it has remained steadfast in its exclusion of religious diversity. Even today, the primary unifying force among the Indian Hindus (the majority) is a shared animosity and fear of Muslims, whom they perceive as invaders and outsiders.... The identity you speak of is, to some extent, founded on animus and is inherently xenophobic and Islamophobic. However, this dynamic has, thus far, sufficed for the Indians

 

[PakAl]

I’ve read in Assad durranis book that Bhutto was against our involvement in Afghanistan during hafiz Ulla Amin /Taraki time and China told Bhutto to not get involved in CIA games and then Bhutto sahb got hanged and this CIA agent Zia fresh from killing Palestinians in Jordan was propped up into power by Kissinger.

What followed is a text book case of why you should never sell your country out no matter what the consequences. And for us the consequences have been devastating to say the least.

You can read it in his book.

I have watched old videos of zia trying to convince the ulema to give fatwas of jihad in Afghanistan, the ulema rejected Zia, they claimed what is jihad when you are trained and funded by cia and others. Those mullahs who said yes received billions for their maddrassas, they established powerful networks and today these same people are giving danda to Pakistan security forces. Now the state is blaming ulema for this fitna.

 

[PakAl]

Remind me what happened to the first four Caliphs?

The first Khaleefa nothing happened to him, the 3 others were assassinated. What is your point? Noone is denying we have traitors amongst us.

 

[Lulldapull]

I have watched old videos of zia trying to convince the ulema to give fatwas of jihad in Afghanistan, the ulema rejected Zia, they claimed what is jihad when you are trained and funded by cia and others. Those mullahs who said yes received billions for their maddrassas, they established powerful networks and today these same people are giving danda to Pakistan security forces. Now the state is blaming ulema for this fitna.

Zia destroyed our society. The damage he has inflicted upon us is irreparable.

We are still wearing that dead afghani albatross around our necks!

Still paying for his blunder.

 

[PakAl]

Education is the crucial thing here.

When you see Taliban and their idiotic laws (that have nothing to do with Islam), for instance the banning of women education, it is an active attempt to keep half of the population stupid and ignorant. Thus making them easy to control.

Also lack of education and ignorance often leads to extremes. Moderation is the way forward.

I think that Pakistan's problems are much deeper than just secularism or Islamic. They are just words as I wrote.

Corruption, lack of education (ignorance, illiteracy), poverty, internal divisions, diversity (diversity is good if the state is strong - if weak it often gives rise to trouble - see the Baloch/Pashtun separatism/discontent), lack of genuine economic progress etc.

Only way forward is economic development. Look at China and their journey. No reason why Pakistan or anyone else for that matter cannot do something similar in the future.

Good leadership is important but also organic improvement/development regionally by honest and hard working people.

I agree. We also need good education, not the bad education that can lead to racism and extreme nationalism where you want to harm everyone else. European are educated people but also have racist far right parties.

Taliban is a complex situation, it's not that simple. I was listening to a taliban minister and he claims he wants education for women but the ulema council are not convinced, he didn't state the reason. Taliban has educated people but also extreme elements of Afghan tribal elders. If the taliban believe its not safe for women to attend schools, they should start home education for girls, in the western world many people have online or home schooling so its definitely positive.

 

[hussain0216]

If Pakistan genuinely wanted to be an Islamic state, it should have adopted Arabic as its national language and replaced all Hindu traditions in the country with Arab traditions. The truth is, they never truly wanted to be seen as an Islamic state on the global stage. They recognize the pride associated with being Hindu and Indian, knowing that India and Hinduism are powerful identities, whereas Islam and Arab is not.

We detested Hindus and Hinduism, so much so that we went through a brutal partition where millions suffered and died just so we could disassociate ourselves from Hindus and Hinduism

Why in the world would you think worship of idols Is something we would wish to associate with?

 

[Sharma Ji]

The whole point of Islam is that it's a CONSTANT through time and society, its not supposed to bend to the whims and desires of society and man,

Society and man is supposed to bend to the will Of God ie Islam

Otherwise what you have is every time society changes it bends religion to fit it's own desires and everything is legitimate

People and society do that with Islam as well, we are not immune we have plenty of jahilat that should never happen, but that's where the struggle begins

In practice it is only the ultra observant folk who walk that walk.

Not for everyone, this whole hog rules following business, and across religions.

 

[Indos]

In India, the identities of Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, and Buddhists are deeply intertwined with the Indian identity since these religions originated there. However, Pakistan's case is different—there is no singular, unifying identity rooted in its land, like Hinduism in India or Islam in Arabia.

Dude, it is very clear if we use the caste system in Hindu religion

Hindu is imposed by Aryan white skin that originated in Iran/ Afghan to local Indian people.

Those of the invaders from Iran / Afghan have become Muslim now lol

 

[Sharma Ji]

I’ve read in Assad durranis book that Bhutto was against our involvement in Afghanistan during hafiz Ulla Amin /Taraki time and China told Bhutto to not get involved in CIA games and then Bhutto sahb got hanged and this CIA agent Zia fresh from killing Palestinians in Jordan was propped up into power by Kissinger.

What followed is a text book case of why you should never sell your country out no matter what the consequences. And for us the consequences have been devastating to say the least.

You can read it in his book.

A.S. Dulat and Durrani ki co-written waali ?

Spy chronicles something ? I had it, lost it.. gotta order it again.

 

[_Arabia_]

I agree. We also need good education, not the bad education that can lead to racism and extreme nationalism where you want to harm everyone else. European are educated people but also have racist far right parties.

Taliban is a complex situation, it's not that simple. I was listening to a taliban minister and he claims he wants education for women but the ulema council are not convinced, he didn't state the reason. Taliban has educated people but also extreme elements of Afghan tribal elders. If the taliban believe its not safe for women to attend schools, they should start home education for girls, in the western world many people have online or home schooling so its definitely positive.

I partially agree but there is no Islamic logic behind directly banning women from attending school or university. They can easily make separate female schools and universities like in numerous Muslim nations, KSA included. I think this is about culture (Pashtun) and ignorance. Same thing with bacha bazi which is a really shameful and disgusting practice. Same with female circumcision in places like Somalia and Egypt.

It reminds me of the logic behind some of our past ultra-conservative clerics who banned women driving after 1979. The argument was that it could lead to un-Islamic practices, mixing unrelated and unmarried males and females, lead to other vices etc. Now here 8 years after those doomsday arguments have largely been disproven. Besides most locals never supported such stupid laws that did not exist prior to 1979. I remember people who were against it, they are now buying cars to their daughters or female relatives and encouraging them to drive. One wrote many years ago in an article in Okaz that he was ashamed of him being against it due to ignorance. The guy had 3 or 4 daughters of his own if I recall.

I don't understand why SOME (not all) ultraconservative (at least self-proclaimed) clerics and Muslims make Islam overly complicated when this is overall not the case. Women driving CAN lead to vices, it does not necessarily need to at all. Women education CAN lead to negatives but in the vast majority of cases this is not the case. There are many such examples. I am talking about interpretations here not clear cut consensus rules such as for instance alcohol consumption, refraining from eating pork, not stealing (corruption) etc. which all Muslims agree with regardless of sect.

Dude, it is very clear if we use the caste system in Hindu religion

Hindu is imposed by Aryan white skin that originated in Iran/ Afghan to local Indian people.

Those of the invaders from Iran / Afghan have become Muslim now lol

Modern-day Central Asia. Google Andronovo. Not modern-day Iranians or Afghans. Also most Indians and South Asians (outside of a few ethnic groups in Pakistan) are in their majority of a local stock in terms of DNA from the DNA tests that I have seen.