POST WAR assessment of recent conflict.

Preface:
I appreciate the premise of this thread very much. No matter how I have been self-critical of Pakistanis and Pakistanis, the one thing that I have always known us to be better at than the Indians is our closer relationship with facts, reality, and critical analysis. Unfortunately, on the last day (yet) of the conflict showed some disturbing trends from our media and general public where I feel like a lot of exaggerations, false-bravados, and propaganda were seen, not as bad but in the same vein as the Indians. I feel VERY STRONGLY that we should NOT become like the Indians in this very important aspect, which is why I really appreciate the creation of this thread. With all of this said, I feel like a lot of people will inevitably do adhominem attacks and call me traitor in the time of war. While I am used to this when I used to call out the military pre-PTI, this will be in a different context, where the whole country is apparently on the same page. I can only request that you please read what I have to say with a cool mind and believe that I do have Pakistan's best interest at heart.

The air-to-air battle:
This happened on the first night and we have essentially undeniable evidence of the losses suffered by IAF at the hands of PAF. Obviously, I wouldn't know exactly why PAF overpowered IAF in this way but I have some theories:
1. The IAF did not expect PAF to shoot at them while they were inside their airspace because PAF did not shoot at them until they crossed or were about to cross in 2019.
2. The PAF has a very well-oiled network-centric doctrine that has been shown to be superior to IAF's slightly hotch-potch doctrine that results from the plethora of systems that they operate.
I feel like PAF has discovered that PAF's best bet is to create panic inside IAF and that is easy to do and creates a favorable situation for PAF.


The drone strikes by India over several nights:
Every night, we would be hit by volleys of all kinds of drones - even target drones. Clearly this was meant to saturate our ADGE and to illicit a response.
1. It is good that we did not activate our main missile defense for hitting them.
2. There was mixed success in EW-based defense against these.
3. I understand that it is nearly impossible to defend against such mass attacks totally effectively.
The mistakes we made:
1. Relying too much on big systems like HQ-16 HQ-9 etc spread over TWO services (PAF PA). It is almost like we were not expecting to deal with drone swarms.
2. Not responding.

Delayed Response: "Time and Place of Our Choosing"
It is exceedingly obvious that in the Indo-Pak theatre mounting defense is tricky. You really have to do offense. Pakistan's failure to respond for days emboldened the Indians to keep terrorizing Pakistani pubic.


Receipts:
The delayed response would be digestable if we actually had receipts for our response. I am sorry but Indians have totally outclassed us in the realm of battle damage assesment. They showed before/after pictures of our bases that will be shared with the world for years. We on the other hand were only able to show videos of radar pictures and everything else was trust me bro. In this day and age it is crucial to have some kind of BDA - as we had in 2019 with the videos using H weapons. Even if someone wants to argue that Pakistan did an amazing response after waiting alot, they cannot because there's no evidence for it.



Key Weakness for Us:
1. Speed of Response: We need to have gameplans and responses preplanned and excercised by units. We can't be caught waiting and doing nothing. Call it restraint or whatever - the delay hurt us.
2. The magnitude of the response: Unfortunately, our response was NOT proportionate - the Indians had been terrorizing us for 3 nights and launched so many Brahmos, Harops, Target drones at us. We only launched some F1 and F2. I understand that we are a poor country that can't afford much, but our response was weak.
3. Ability to give evidence of our response: We need satellites or drones to be part of our response plan because a strike that has no evidence for might as well not have happened.
4. Lack of defense of AFBs against drone swarms - we need cost effective HARD KILL measures against drone swarms that don't rely on using our air defense systems.


People will get angry but I feel that Pakistan's detterence has been greatly damaged if not ruined by this episode. A consequence of this is India will surely repeat something like this, with even more intensity next time something happens on their side and they want some war mongering.

After 2019 our deterrence was solidified, after 2025 our deterrence has been weakened. This begs the question why India did 2025 if 2019 had made such a great detterence? Well,
a. They are kind of beholden to their internal politics too much.
b. The shoot down of so many of their jets really had them out to balance things.
c. They had prepared and improved a LOT since 2019 - they had a whole new strategy this time.
There are many who viewed the current leadership (despite "up managing" by very competent and unwavering people) as vacillating and indecisive.

In addition, the saturation tested the OODA loop of Pakistan combined AD and much like 71 the cards were held close to the chest for "something bigger" as they were held then for the much hyped counteroffensive that never came.

Sat access is there but as I pointed out in the main thread - its outsourced which means the orbits are not ideal nor are they as frequent as India's focused orbits.
 
@Cipher212

but then a good thing about our military is that they are very experienced with construction projects.

If there was an Olympic event for humour, Pakistan will sweep all medals!

Regards
Maybe you should also aim to compete in humility with Pakistanis too - for ANY party reading Indian forums vs Pakistanis - there is MUCH more introspection and scrutiny than the sometimes nonsensical jingoism and delusions seen in Indian circles online.


Other than the idiotic snake eating its tail on the female pilot issue - there are literally memes on now about "war over back to saying Fauj is eating the country"
 
@Cipher212

but then a good thing about our military is that they are very experienced with construction projects.

If there was an Olympic event for humour, Pakistan will sweep all medals!

Regards
True India is also very good with intercepting missiles. =)
 
I know that @Waz said to concentrate on air force and navy but i have to add some thoughts about infantry as there is old saying you did not won the war untill your foots do not step in and control ground.
So, what i would propose in essence is comprehensive infantry "dronification" on tactical and operational level, by that you would achieve two major things, ability to capture teritory without huge losses and less number of infantry troops needed for trenches and that surplus of human resource can be used elsewhere.
As much as the conventional army is conservative and rigid structure for me if all three branches are not compatible technologically it is weakness which can be used by enemy.
Your ground forces have to have its own air force in form of all kinds of drones for better situational awareness.
In next war your aim has to be ground incursion and liberation not just defence and retaliation, that is the greatest detterence.
 
No - going with a very different approach which is going to be effective in its own way and will work like PL-15 did. Letting PN ships run silent and out of range of any potential IN stick.
I was mostly referring to the use of such a missile for attrition purposes in the land theatre. That is, ASM and SSM.
 
@Oscar sb

No two opinions about it. I wish my qaum could learn humor and humility from your nation, especially the Punjabis. I am sorry to say that most of my online countrymen, particularly my fellow Bhakts are a humorless, crass and bilious lot.

Regards
 
First question I want to start with why did we not see stocks of cruise missiles used?

View attachment 119609
We took things very lightly. From forces to people. For us, it was and still is a corner fight rather than war.

One weird thing I observed. War kinda revitalized Pakistan. I am afraid that Pakistan might follow the same path as USA did. I am afraid that war will become our food. War economies are not good.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Waz
Binkov did a great video a day or so ago listing all the stand off weapons of both sides based on SIPRI data.

10:30
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

This guy changed map of India. Indians will not be happy with it.
 
Btw, now that probing by India is done, I think Israel and USA would want to use this opportunity to increase the sales towards India.

We must neutralize Israel asap. I always thought that if we will not target Israel , Israel will not target us, but I was wrong. The existence of Israel is a threat to every Muslim country and we must root this western checkpost in ME asap.
After that, India will start behaving and USA will not be able to do much in the region.
 
Honestly everything did well. Except for one.

Air Defence failed overall. I get that our air bases are closer to the border overall but life is not fair and preparations have to be made accordingly.

Either increase the number and variety of air defence units, or start building underground/mountain air bases, or do both. Sargodha at least should not have taken any hits.

In Bholari why weren't all personnel in trenches/bunkers when they knew other bases have been struck?

We also need something better than the CM-400 for our JF-17s. Longer range and faster flying.

Seriously PAF has to move some of their bases away from the Indian border
 
2 S400 Indian batteries were taken out. If their IAF was not grounded after losing 2-3 Rafales they could have taken our too.

More AD batteries isnt the answer but more missiles and drones. Keep working on how to take out their AD.

Also next time Pakistan will not show “restraint”.
 
Jammers saw mixed success in the past few days of the conflict and I do believe we need to work on improving our jamming capabilities on top of our Anti Air Batteries
1000056617.jpg1000056607.jpg
Turkish KORAL and Hand held jammers should be seriously reviewed and inducted
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Pakistan Defence Latest

Back
Top