Türkiye restarts F-35 fighter jet negotiations with US while refusing to give up Russian S-400 missile system

[RajaBaja]

Which Israeli leaders?

I read on twitter but I did see a couple of threads here also. You can search and read yourself here.

 

[RajaBaja]

Personally, I believe the US should deny Turkey the F-35.

It's a chicken and the egg issue. You stop the F-35's, they will bring in a competitor to the F-35, the KAAN sooner than later with more recent tech than the F-35. It'll be built with near 2030's tech with some 6th gen features. Almost 12-15 years ahead of the F-35 regardless of upgrades.

They will go through some desperate years but that $ 20 billion will be poured into the Euro fighter Typhoon acquisition instead of F-16 upgrades. If you want nearly $ 50-75 billion gone elsewhere, that's ok.

But Trump is very smart. He won't let that happen. Additionally, diplomatically, US and Turkey work very close together. Both Ukraine and Russians listen to Turkey, along with many other nations in and out of EU, despite what's on camera.

 

[LeGenD]

It's a chicken and the egg issue. You stop the F-35's, they will bring in a competitor to the F-35, the KAAN sooner than later with more recent tech than the F-35. It'll be built with near 2030's tech with some 6th gen features. Almost 12-15 years ahead of the F-35 regardless of upgrades.

They will go through some desperate years but that $ 20 billion will be poured into the Euro fighter Typhoon acquisition instead of F-16 upgrades. If you want nearly $ 50-75 billion gone elsewhere, that's ok.

But Trump is very smart. He won't let that happen. Additionally, diplomatically, US and Turkey work very close together. Both Ukraine and Russians listen to Turkey, along with many other nations in and out of EU, despite what's on camera.

Too early to claim how advanced KAAN will be. The F-35 Block 4 is equipped with most advanced tech outside NGAD. No country have showcased tech on the level of the F-35 let alone better. Speculations abound. Turkey benefits from tech transfer and exchange of concepts with NATO partners to develop weapons so KAAN will be a milestone in itself when complete. Let's see.

 

[RajaBaja]

Too early to claim how advanced KAAN will be. The F-35 Block 4 is equipped with most advanced tech outside NGAD. No country have showcased tech on the level of the F-35 let alone better. Speculations abound. Turkey benefits from tech transfer and exchange of concepts with NATO partners to develop weapons so KAAN will be a milestone in itself when complete. Let's see.

You've answered your own question on the bottom of your message.

Remember, Turkey was a part of the F-35 design AND it was producing over 900 (yes, NINE HUNDRED) parts of this Jet locally. Building a car's 900 parts (car, just an example) without knowing it's design, capability and how these parts will integrate with the rest of the car is impossible.
Turkey knows F-35's design and capabilities and has expertise in it. That's why KAAN even exists and has moved forward so much so fast. That's how even ANKA and KIZILELMA exist also.

 

[Pak-Warrior]

The full-scale model of the AMCA displayed by HAL is about 65% of the actual aircraft. HAL could have made it fly by installing engines and basic avionics—just like Turkey did with the KAAN model, which was originally intended for ground testing. But simply flying a structure doesn’t make it a prototype. Even a prototype takes 8 to 10 years to mature into a production-ready aircraft.

Totally incorrect. India cannot do it without spending years on it. Flying a new aircraft is not a small step, that you just install engines on your model and here you go lol. Its one of the major milestones. The one that flies is a prototype by all means. A prototype has to do a flight test and then only you move on to radar, combat systems and what not. You NEVER put everything, all combat systems and then do your first flying test. First successful flight test is huge deal, that requires years of work. I wonder how on earth you could even compare a plastic model (an empty shell) of india with a flying prototype of Turkey. I am not saying indian aircraft will not fly, it eventually will but needs years of work. Also whenever your prototype will fly, it will doing a basic flight test. It will certainly not have any sort of combat capability. It will again then require years of work before commissioning.

 

[Foinikas]

Why ? What have Turks done now ? Or are you looking out for your proxy in Mideast ?

I have a list

 

[LeGenD]

You've answered your own question on the bottom of your message.

Remember, Turkey was a part of the F-35 design AND it was producing over 900 (yes, NINE HUNDRED) parts of this Jet locally. Building a car's 900 parts (car, just an example) without knowing it's design, capability and how these parts will integrate with the rest of the car is impossible.
Turkey knows F-35's design and capabilities and has expertise in it. That's why KAAN even exists and has moved forward so much so fast. That's how even ANKA and KIZILELMA exist also.

Yes, Turkey can develop some advanced components locally but following article provides an overview of the situation:

Crowning Achievement? Kaan and the Turkish Defense Industry - War on the Rocks

In February 2024, Turkey successfully completed the maiden test flight of its prototype Kaan fighter. The plane’s name is taken from an ancient Central

warontherocks.com

 

[Pakistani Dragon]

Israeli leaders have been making statements that "Turkey should be next". I doubt it as it's a NATO member. But we all know how they treat Turkey. Turkey's weakest point is also its airforce with older F-16's.

KAAN needs build, test, integration and numbers. That's a 10 year road. Until then, the most sensible option is to get F-35 (which will indirectly aid KAAN) and upgrade F-16's from LM and locally.

Zion is not going to attack Turkiye. There's no need for a war between the two countries.

They'll contest over Syria over the coming years and we'll see how that pans out.

 

[Foinikas]

Zion is not going to attack Turkiye. There's no need for a war between the two countries.

They'll contest over Syria over the coming years and we'll see how that pans out.

 

[imadul]

The question is,why are you in such a hurry to acquire stopgaps,when you've been siding with everyone and have virtually no need for them. Americans and Western Europeans are ok with Erdogan now,Putin is more than fine with him,Ukrainians depend on him,Syria has fallen,Iran is having problems,Kurds are isolated,,Haftar is friendly to you now,Sissi has calmed down,yet Turkey is anxiously trying to get F-16Vs,F-35s and Eurofighter,along with new AA systems.

Pretty weird if you take Turkish claims of quality indigenous AA systems coming out. F-16Vs I understand. But when you've invested so much on your own 5th generation fighter and unmanned fighter,what's really the reason to spend billions and billions to get F-35s and Eurofighter for like...5 years or something.

Multiple alternative approaches.
F-35 renego looks a political move, but Trump is unpredictable so turkey could expect door to open.
With turkey using $23 - 25 billion f16 upgrade to v standard as bargain...they won't go for it.
Eurofighter is option, it will keep tech transfer pipelines bidirectional.
Turkey best option would be buying eurofighter T3 and bring to T4 using LTE, Long-Term Evolution domestically.
But Political hurdles remain from your ally Germany
Turkey needs a 4.5+ aircraft till it's kaan matures... A long shot.
Your concerns valid as turkey and Greece has serious disputes rooted in history, but Greece already has a capable fleet of rafale, mirage 2000, f16 c/d, signed F35.

 

[Foinikas]

Multiple alternative approaches.
F-35 renego looks a political move, but Trump is unpredictable so turkey could expect door to open.
With turkey using $23 - 25 billion f16 upgrade to v standard as bargain...they won't go for it.
Eurofighter is option, it will keep tech transfer pipelines bidirectional.
Turkey best option would be buying eurofighter T3 and bring to T4 using LTE, Long-Term Evolution domestically.
But Political hurdles remain from your ally Germany
Turkey needs a 4.5+ aircraft till it's kaan matures... A long shot.
Your concerns valid as turkey and Greece has serious disputes rooted in history, but Greece already has a capable fleet of rafale, mirage 2000, f16 c/d, signed F35.

Germany has always been Turkey's good friend despite a few sanctions and stuff

 

[imadul]

Germany has always been Turkey's good friend despite a few sanctions and stuff

View attachment 132185

Weird thing about time, it always change

 

[KingQamaR]

You've answered your own question on the bottom of your message.

Remember, Turkey was a part of the F-35 design AND it was producing over 900 (yes, NINE HUNDRED) parts of this Jet locally. Building a car's 900 parts (car, just an example) without knowing it's design, capability and how these parts will integrate with the rest of the car is impossible.
Turkey knows F-35's design and capabilities and has expertise in it. That's why KAAN even exists and has moved forward so much so fast. That's how even ANKA and KIZILELMA exist also.

Kaan looking like the lovechild of an f-22 and f35 does not a fifth -gen fighter make. The real differentiator is software and sensor fusion, something that can’t be ascertained about the KAAN.

 

[RajaBaja]

Kaan looking like the lovechild of an f-22 and f35 does not a fifth -gen fighter make. The real differentiator is software and sensor fusion, something that can’t be ascertained about the KAAN.

See below. Missile and Cockpit related work was being done by Turkey until it was removed from F-35 program. Plus lots more including RAM painting, etc. So Turkey started KAAN project before F-35 partnership but it has acquired these capabilities. Which is why its easier for it to join F-35 program again as they can produce all these components cost effectively for the entire program and bring unit cost down. Plus, these expertise of having such an industrial base will help their own KAAN project.

 

[RajaBaja]

Zion is not going to attack Turkiye. There's no need for a war between the two countries.

They'll contest over Syria over the coming years and we'll see how that pans out.

Turkey or any other nation don't care about two people on a defense forum making opinions about their future wars. They do care about their weak airforce right now. It's ample clear. Turkey is exploring F-16 upgrade, F-35 back-add to the program and also keeping a backup plan for EFT purchase. If they didn't think they were in a bad situation, we won't be seeing such hurry for these acquisitions, including an immediate local upgrade for their older F-16's with Murad radar. So reality is different than what we know.