Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (KP) Terrorism Watch

[PakAl]

By State you mean GHQ. The very state that is the one which radicalized the nation. Started those madrassas. From 1500 Madrassas we went over 30,000 of them. This jihadiication was then Chief of army staff's brain child. He could have used CIA funds to strengthen only the military instead he had some master vision. That is our problem. We think there are geniuses in-charge. That is exactly which is wrong with us. In his views, he was working for Islam and he never thought about repercussions of so much jihadification. So State itself is to be blamed because they had absolute power on every decision that has taken place. We could have put blame to political parties if they had really any say in these matters.

Lastly, everyone has their own view point and thought process. Someone can be way more patriotic then you but have different approach. No one can judge who's anti-pak lol. According to them they'd be most patriotic and you'd be anti-pak as they might view patriotism do be a strong country with flourishing democratic principles and military bound under civil rule. That could be their view for bright future and a strong country. Your views could be totally different.

10,000s of Pakistani ulema opposed Zia plan, they completely rejected the plan to work with Saudia and Usa to start jihad in Afghanistan, Zia even issued statement against them claiming they don't understand we have to fight this war for our survival, those who agreed with Zia received billions upon billions, were given political and religious power. Zia masterstroke in his mind was since Afghanistan is secular nationalist state, he wanted to promote a religious ideology that calls Pakistan Afghanistan as brothers, calls for jihad against soviets, but ofcourse after a decade Pakistan was left with the mess, and still billions of funding was given by foreigners to create a monster ideology, only recently the funding has declined. The ulema opposed because how can you commit to jihad with USA, an enemy of Islam, Zia on the other hand feared another Bangladesh like situation where secularist or normal people rose up to divide the country. The state wanted allies and jihadis are allies as long as they get power and money.

Today in Pakistan we have some religious preaching organisations, religous political parties, charities, militants all forming a nexus, they all have the same ideology, only some pretend to be sweet and kind so they can recruit, you don't approach a person and ask them to join jihadis, it's slow brainwashing done by preachers, then slowly some angry guys wants to join militants whilst some go in preaching, charity work, social media.

 

[Pak-Warrior]

Ofc the balme is on whoever had the power, but saying that Zia radicalized the society, is nothing more then a brain fart of the Pakistani left.
Anyone with a functioning brain wouldnt question our afghan policy of that time.
The problems begun when the leadership which oversaw the afghan jihad was eliminated thus creating a mess that slowly got out of hand. Imo if Zia had not been killed, today both Pakistan and afghanistan would've been very different places.

Subcontinent's society is inherently extremist in the sense that whatever ideology we follow we do it with unmatched passion.

Pakistan was pretty moderate till 60s and mid-70s. We created the problem ourselves in 80s. Can't say how afghanistan / pak would have looked if Zia would have done his illegal military dictatorship for 30 years. He was basically a radicalized/extremist person himself. He would have selected Tailban's side by 9/11 and Pakistan could have turned into Iraq. All could have gone even worse. So can't really say how things would have turned for us.

 

[PakAl]

Subcontinent's society is inherently extremist in the sense that whatever ideology we follow we do it with unmatched passion.

We have ziddi people, plus jahalat is high level, so if you correct someone they get offended and stick to whatever they believe in even if it is wrong, alot of my relatives who loved TTP and supported jihadis are now falling in love with PTI, it's only because they want to exploit the hatred between PTI and establishment and want to get in the vacuum.

You see the powerful love people like this, they will align with you as long as you got power and they get benefits. The powerful don't like people who will disagree when the powerful are wrong.

 

[Baadil]

You and I are never going to agree.

You are an Islamist, I'm not.

I could just as easily argue that religious nationalism leads to extremism, regressive, violence against women, mistreatment of religious minorities, disregard of human rights and overall societal regression.

Meanwhile most secular ethnic nationalist state including the one you live in flourished in science and technology, social development and infrastructure.

You simply believe religious extremism is somehow morally righteous but ethnic nationalism isn't. The former operates like a cult based on a book, at least the latter is based in reality and blood which actually exists.

Mate, I have already asked you about regressivism vs progressivism, secular defaultism.

Where do you get your definitions for what is extreme, regressive, mistreatment, and human rights? What is your basis on which the above can be defined as deviations from? Do you claim such a basis as subjective or objective, and what is your evidence?

You speak of this reality - what evidence do you have for it? It seems to be your selective reading and understanding of history, and sweeping generalisations of "religion vs irreligion".

I have already mentioned these things and expounded a little differently here


Peace be with you.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@arslank01

Arslan sb,

i really wish the state had imposed a state sanctioned form of islam, closing down all independant madrassas and having only state owned and managed ones.

That is a good idea. Only thing is you will have to select one particular line. Going by sheer military prowess and ideological coherence, the Deobandi-Wahabi line maybe the only one suitable for selection as national Islam.

Regards

 

[Baadil]

10,000s of Pakistani ulema opposed Zia plan, they completely rejected the plan to work with Saudia and Usa to start jihad in Afghanistan, Zia even issued statement against them claiming they don't understand we have to fight this war for our survival, those who agreed with Zia received billions upon billions, were given political and religious power. Zia masterstroke in his mind was since Afghanistan is secular nationalist state, he wanted to promote a religious ideology that calls Pakistan Afghanistan as brothers, calls for jihad against soviets, but ofcourse after a decade Pakistan was left with the mess, and still billions of funding was given by foreigners to create a monster ideology, only recently the funding has declined. The ulema opposed because how can you commit to jihad with USA, an enemy of Islam, Zia on the other hand feared another Bangladesh like situation where secularist or normal people rose up to divide the country. The state wanted allies and jihadis are allies as long as they get power and money.

Today in Pakistan we have some religious preaching organisations, religous political parties, charities, militants all forming a nexus, they all have the same ideology, only some pretend to be sweet and kind so they can recruit, you don't approach a person and ask them to join jihadis, it's slow brainwashing done by preachers, then slowly some angry guys wants to join militants whilst some go in preaching, charity work, social media.

@Rationalist look at the very least this user is approaching criticism of Zia's policies by highlighting historical realities of other Muslims opposing Zia from their Islamic perspective, just as Zia used his Islamic perspective to justify his policies. Then, we can go to the experts in Islamic theology, jurisprudence (just as we would go to experts in other fields) to evaluate how "Islamic" Zia's policies were. This is the foremost method to critique a Pakistani ruler, as, whether you like it or not, Pakistan was formed as a homeland for the Muslims of British India.

 

[RAJPUT]

i really wish the state had imposed a state sanctioned form of islam, closing down all independant madrassas and having only state owned and managed ones.

also wish there was a reporting hotline, theres so many people out there who are anti pak who need to be deported asap but no mechanism for reporting properly

How do you manage that? What firqa will run these Madrassas? Do you think other sects would watch from the sidelines and keep quiet? This all is a mess and cannot be solved by authoritarianism and socialistic religion.
I agree with the reporting hotline thing, but it would be greatly misused just like the “Gustakh!!!” people.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

Mate, I have already asked you about regressivism vs progressivism, secular defaultism.

Where do you get your definitions for what is extreme, regressive, mistreatment, and human rights? What is your basis on which the above can be defined as deviations from? Do you claim such a basis as subjective or objective, and what is your evidence?

You speak of this reality - what evidence do you have for it? It seems to be your selective reading and understanding of history, and sweeping generalisations of "religion vs irreligion".

I have already mentioned these things and expounded a little differently here


Peace be with you.

Look man, I'm really not interested to steer completely off topic into the clichè philosophical debates about subjective vs objective to deflect the entire discussion into some moral stalemate. We are not Muhammad Hijab at Speaker's Corner. It's largely pointless, I care more about real world practical results. Not philosophical arguments.

There is a pretty popular consensus by most of the planet on what is generally considered regressive and what isn't.

And so far the results of secular irreligious societies and their tangible development in STEM and infrastructure completely eclipse the mullahs you try to defend.

 

[PakShaheen_79]

Pakistan as a state is mixture of wrong expectations, strategic blunders, shortsightedness of its leaders, rampant corruption, moral bankrupcy ... one leading and feeding to another. Here powerful is consider himself above the law and supreme being with universal wisdom. You can't suggest him, you can't reason with him, you can't present your argument if they are against his whims. They first install feduals and expect these will bring democracy in the country. Two contradtictory concepts. They allowed mashroom growth of violent tedencies in the name of Jihad and now expect these demons will follow state policies and laws. Again two contradictory concepts. They first tell the nation that person A is corrupt and publish 10 volumes on his corruption and then suddenly Person A is found to be on presidential aircraft coming home and those who published 10 volumes about his corruption saluting him. All this while bypassing legal process. Then they expect people will respect them as institution. Contradiction between deeds and demands. First they announce to fight against smuggling but then found to be involved in it and list goes on and on.

At the core, our military generals (there is no establishment in Pakistan as such just individuals with big egos) have ensured their relevance in every department by simple divide and conqur policy and systemtic destruction of institutons was a natural demand to maintain control. Recent amdendments to turn higher judiciary into a government department is clearest manifestation of this policy. This war against terror is no different. They push TTP when they need to up their approval rating among masses but then they stop finishing it off completely just to continue fighting at some other day when there will be a need. Million dollar question is who brought TTP back in KP? If anyone said Imran Khan, let me tell you he knows nothing about how real decision making in Pakistan is done by whom and where about such matters like national security. Their return was an insurance policy against the mess they had decided to create in naitonal politics back in 2022 and now is the time for putting up a show hence the operation. What will change? Nothing!
But from TTP prespective, they are now emboldened by this stupid policy making by GHQ. They know that the continuation of this war is also a need of GHQ for other reasons (both internal and external) hence they will be allowed to regroup, relaunch and then there will be next round in few years. Worst outcome will be even higher number of Pak forces' fatalities as TTP and TTA will be supplied with more lethal weapons along with training and funds by hostile agencies.
I know all this is very bitter to read but unfortunately this is how our ALL WISE and AAL KNOWING have fu*ked up this country during the last 2 and half decade and there is no end in sight of this madness.

 

[Baadil]

Look man, I'm really not interested to steer completely off topic into the clichè philosophical debates about subjective vs objective to deflect the entire discussion into some moral stalemate. We are not Muhammad Hijab at Speaker's Corner. It's largely pointless, I care more about real world practical results. Not philosophical arguments.

There is a pretty popular consensus by most of the planet on what is generally considered regressive and what isn't.

And so far the results of secular irreligious societies and their tangible development in STEM and infrastructure completely eclipse the mullahs you try to defend.

You and I both know my friend, you know you cannot answer if you stick to what you're currently upon. There is absolutely no statement, nor equivalence, between what has a provable objective basis and what is conjecture cloaked in jargon spouted from post-colonial indoctrination. Your recency bias and selective reading of history deceive you into thinking you're only considering real-world practicalities.

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May Allah guide you and me to the Truth, Ameen.

And declare, “The truth has come and falsehood has vanished. Indeed, falsehood is bound to vanish.”
— Dr. Mustafa Khattab, The Clear Quran

Surah Al-Isra - 81 - Quran.com

And declare, “The truth has come and falsehood has vanished. Indeed, falsehood is bound to vanish.”

quran.com

Also, just to mention for mods and for others, the TTP have been labelled as Fitnah-Al-Khawarij, so this topic is inherently about religion. JazakAllah khairan.

 

[Distant_Observer]

Why are we debating theology. TTP is an afghandu proxy group tasked with destabilizing Pakistan.

One JDAM on Taliban HQ will make them all fall into line. This time there is no escape into safe havens in Pakistan.

No theological debates and whataboutism and mental gymnastics needed.

 

[Baadil]

Why are we debating theology. TTP is an afghandu proxy group tasked with destabilizing Pakistan.

One JDAM on Taliban HQ will make them all fall into line. This time there is no escape into safe havens in Pakistan.

No theological debates and whataboutism and mental gymnastics needed.

Also, just to mention for mods and for others, the TTP have been labelled as Fitnah-Al-Khawarij, so this topic is inherently about religion.

Please see above

 

[El Sidd]

Why are we debating theology. TTP is an afghandu proxy group tasked with destabilizing Pakistan.

One JDAM on Taliban HQ will make them all fall into line. This time there is no escape into safe havens in Pakistan.

No theological debates and whataboutism and mental gymnastics needed.

people are bored. they want to destroy illegal hydro infrastructure built by india in kashmir. government should cancel Simla agreement and let physics, maths, biology and engineering decide our fate not some theology about patience, restraint and the greater good.

 

[PakAl]

Pakistan was pretty moderate till 60s and mid-70s. We created the problem ourselves in 80s. Can't say how afghanistan / pak would have looked if Zia would have done his illegal military dictatorship for 30 years. He was basically a radicalized/extremist person himself. He would have selected Tailban's side by 9/11 and Pakistan could have turned into Iraq. All could have gone even worse. So can't really say how things would have turned for us.

I still meet some oldies and they say if Zia didn't die, Pakistan would have liberated Kashmir and destroyed India, they still consider him a powerful visionary leader. The reason Zia pumped jihadi ideology is not because he was radicalised but he was given ideas by Saudi Arabia to use religious ideology against Secular ideology, since Bangladesh was separated by secular ethnic ideology. Zia thought he can make Pakistan in to a powerful united Islamic state, with close alliance with Afghanistan, both will share religious nationalism and the threat of ethnic separatism will finish but he failed to realise this same foreign religous ideology is not from this region, this ideology follow foreign ideologies, foreign mullahs, literature and the control will be in the hand of foreign people who will take advantage. This is exactly what happened, these extremist mullahs want a Syrian style revolution, they want Arabic promoted as language, arab nationalism promoted, arab dress, culture, they hate local customs and culture.

Look at Afghanistan Taliban, since coming back to power they declared themselves to be independent Islamic power, since then Saudia hates them, banned Taligh Jamaat in Saudi Arabia, issued fatwas, you see they spent billions in Afghanistan but cannot control the Taliban. This is why someone out their is pumping billions in to ISIS to target Taliban, and trying to cause a civil war in Afghanistan to bring Taliban on their knees.

 

[Ak01]

Why are we debating theology. TTP is an afghandu proxy group tasked with destabilizing Pakistan.

One JDAM on Taliban HQ will make them all fall into line. This time there is no escape into safe havens in Pakistan.

No theological debates and whataboutism and mental gymnastics needed.

lol one jdam to iea hq qould lead to huge problems for pak. hope those who championed american withdrawl are happy.