Pakistan Navy Gun Boats - News / Discussion
- Thread starter ghazi52
- Start date
RajaBaja
Trusted Member
Give me some details so I can understand that to defend our near 1100 KM long sea lines, 400km deep EEZ zone, including two ports bound to become regional trade routes, we can't buy let's say 12 VLS container modules and install those on ships needing enhancements?
12 VLS with 32 cells makes it 384 tubes for missiles, add the same for backup so that's 768 missiles. Are we saying Pakistan can't produce and buy 768 missiles of various kinds for a war to defend itself?
We are going towards a 50 ship combat ready Navy in a few years. This Navy will have nearly 7-10 small task forces lead by a guided missile destroyer each. That's just our core necessity to deal with IN's posture. If we can do these such large investments in the near future, we can spend money on enhancing existing fleet and field 768 VLS if need be. But it makes logical sense to turn existing frigates into missile frigates.
384 tubes.
The USN paid 500,000 per MK41 Cell.
Netherlands paid 1.7m per cell.
Finland paid 2.2m per cell.
Lets do the math on the missiles too.
No missile pricing out there, but essm's are costing 1.75m in latest lots, i dont think CAMM-ER will be any lower, only more expensive.
We'll use 1.75/unit in this case, for the sake of getting a rough idea.
for VLS since MK41 isnt available, we will end up with more expensive Turkish solutions, or god forbid European, so i will use a cost of 1.25m per VLS cell- but this is me vastly under quoting a price and just guesstimating a hardware cost.
1.25m/384 tubes= 500 million for launch tubes.
768/1.75 million per missile = 1.35bn for missiles.
Both of these figures are vastly underestimated.
for comparison, the PN had a 940m budget.
vs a 1.9bn cost of just buying VLS hardware and the missiles for them. We're not even talking about integration, certification, hull modifications, testing, additional equiptment, training etc.
This is why program cost for MK41 is 2.2bn for finland but the cell cost may be a fraction.
Using probably more accurate figures, 2m/cell, and probs around 2.25m/camm-er;
768-800m for cells alone.
1.8bn for missiles alone. Add storage, electronics, maintenance facilities etc.
so yeah, very easy to say lets get xyz cells, not so easy to afford.
RajaBaja
Trusted Member
You aren't answering my question. Like the last debate, this is a lot of dance but logic. Kindly logically address for a civilized discussion this time.
1) So you are saying, since $ 1.5 billion will be spent to create significant protection and offensive capability for our ships, we shouldn't spent the money and leave these multi-billion dollar ships that need these, on mercy of Indian navy?
So possibly losing them is fine, but we can't spend $ 1.5 billion to protect our shore line, ports AND these assets themselves?
2) Why do we have a 50 Combat ship strategy including new guided missile destroyers, if we can't afford $ 1.5 billion on weapons?
3) Acquiring 35+ new combat ships to get to 50 ship combat ready force would probably require nearly $ 10+ billion over next 5-7 years. We will obviously buy weapons too worth a couple billion at the least. So how is that going to work if I take your opinion that we can't buy VLS and field 768 missiles of various kinds including missiles we make locally like the Smash, Babur, etc?
your question was "Are we saying Pakistan can't produce and buy 768 missiles of various kinds for a war to defend itself?"You aren't answering my question. Like the last debate, this is a lot of dance but logic. Kindly logically address for a civilized discussion this time.
1) So you are saying, since $ 1.5 billion will be spent to create significant protection and offensive capability for our ships, we shouldn't spent the money and leave these multi-billion dollar ships that need these, on mercy of Indian navy?
So possibly losing them is fine, but we can't spend $ 1.5 billion to protect our shore line, ports AND these assets themselves?
2) Why do we have a 50 Combat ship strategy including new guided missile destroyers, if we can't afford $ 1.5 billion on weapons?
3) Acquiring 35+ new combat ships to get to 50 ship combat ready force would probably require nearly $ 10+ billion over next 5-7 years. We will obviously buy weapons too worth a couple billion at the least. So how is that going to work if I take your opinion that we can't buy VLS and field 768 missiles of various kinds including missiles we make locally like the Smash, Babur, etc?
my answer was yes, i did a pretty solid job explaining why.
PN's '50 ship force' includes nearly 30 gunboats.
so of 20 major surface vessels, they're defended sufficiently via their 12-16 camm loadouts, not amazing but we cant afford more.
10bn+ number sounds great bc its pulledd out of urself.
the PN will probably follow up batch opv, they have a req for a few FAC then 4-6 Jinnah.
Puts 12 ships in the pipeline.
4 babur, 4 f22p, 4 tughril, 2 yarmook b2, plus 12 sounds about right for what cns predicted in terms of major surface ship.
not sure what you were on when you conjured up 35 new ships lol- or what charas you we're taking when you hallucinated a pn destroyer induction lol. You make it EXTREMELY difficult to want to entertain your discussions or take you seriously
RajaBaja
Trusted Member
From your post: PN's 50 ships include 30 'GUNBOATS"?
also, see the bold above from your post. The gap in knowledge is so much that I don't know how to have this discussion. You are entitled to your viewpoint so I'll respect it and end the discussion.Just not: PN will have 50 "combat ships" before 2035. "Combat Ships" are NOT "gun boats"!
Toxic
Trusted Member
On your point about not being able to afford more cells on the ships I would disagree the additional cost would well be worth the capability granted by 10 or 12 so additional cells, IMO going the conservative route on the VLS atleast on the Jinnahs seems pretty shortsighted.
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kimjongun
Registered Member
Can you list them?like don't include old ships like PNS shamsheer and not replenishment ships like PNS nasr and PNS moawinFrom your post: PN's 50 ships include 30 'GUNBOATS"?
Just not: PN will have 50 "combat ships" before 2035. "Combat Ships" are NOT "gun boats"!
ok retard, i guess CNS, Myself and literally every other analyst know nothing, but raja saab has added another 'area of expertise' to his CV. Its pretty impressive how well you talk out your arse.From your post: PN's 50 ships include 30 'GUNBOATS"?
Just not: PN will have 50 "combat ships" before 2035. "Combat Ships" are NOT "gun boats"!
This worth the capability argument only really works in places where countries can actually afford them.
Remember, Yarmooks are still running without Radars, the VLS cells have not been fitted.
Remember, Harbah's have only been fitted to a single PN vessel.
etc etc, theres many examples of the harsh realities, the PN just cant afford everything.
Even the Tughril class are scaled down- they have a bunch of kit deleted, including the Towed Array Sonar.
PN has no choice. The addition of a further 12 cells requires reengineering recertification etc, costs pile up.
I remember visiting KSEW, The Baburs were ready to be handed to PN dockyard, but PN refused to accept delivery for a while... discussing it with MD KSEW... the reason? no money.
We cant use the capability benefit scenario too much here, because the real restrictive factor is cost. The best approach for PN is to FFBNW, which is seemingly whats happened on yarmook batch 2
its great, i even outlined the specific ships, but hey ho, this summarises our friend pretty well lol. Ask him to name the vessels/outline them and he'll start stuttering. Idiots like these are never taken seriously anywhere lol anyway
For those who actually like fact, and not bullshit. As outlined by Adm Abbasi:
To eliminate this constraint, the PN will move towards a fleet of over 50 ships, of which 20 will be “major surface ships.” In terms of major surface combatants, Adm. Abbasi revealed that the PN will receive four Type 054A/P frigates from China between 2021 to 2023. In addition, the four MILGEM corvettes will join the PN fleet from 2023 to 2025. The PN inducted its first 2,300-ton “corvette” – which is based on Damen Shipyard’s OPV-1900 design – in early 2020, and the second ship, PNS Tabouk, will join in November of this year. The outgoing CNS added that “six additional ships of larger tonnage are being contracted.”
So 20 large vessels, 30 small vessels. Gunboat/fac's etc.
2 Yarmook, 4 Tughril, 4 F22P, 4 Babur.
To eliminate this constraint, the PN will move towards a fleet of over 50 ships, of which 20 will be “major surface ships.” In terms of major surface combatants, Adm. Abbasi revealed that the PN will receive four Type 054A/P frigates from China between 2021 to 2023. In addition, the four MILGEM corvettes will join the PN fleet from 2023 to 2025. The PN inducted its first 2,300-ton “corvette” – which is based on Damen Shipyard’s OPV-1900 design – in early 2020, and the second ship, PNS Tabouk, will join in November of this year. The outgoing CNS added that “six additional ships of larger tonnage are being contracted.”
So 20 large vessels, 30 small vessels. Gunboat/fac's etc.
2 Yarmook, 4 Tughril, 4 F22P, 4 Babur.
Toxic
Trusted Member
My point about the additional cells was for the JCF, Jinnah class is still in the design phase (or is the rumour about one being built true?)
no this is fine, but what im saying is the reality is we cannot afford it.
The loadout of 16 just about does the job, even the 12 cell setup is FAR more survivable than a Tughril so theres that. Im sure as part of an MLU when a better setup is available PN will swap them for an 8 cell and then perhaps quadpack camm-er IF it can be certified and carried in whatever solution is picked- BIG IF
Goku-Kun
Registered Member
so you are saying that CAMM-ER is more potent then HHQ-16A on Tughril? only because it is semi-active and CAMM-ER is fully active radar guided..
