Joint Defense Agreement: Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan, news & updates

Egypt wanted the bigger role in defence of gulf countries by making and leading arab block bit failed miserbaly . To counter it started building relation ship with uae as uae was not happy about the KSA. so it lead to dovergence in interest
 
"Idiot" look i the mirror. There is no shia or sunni first, it is always Pakistan first. It shows you know so little, but yeah, carry on with the insults, it's a classy look.


Well, "there is no Shia or Sunni first, it is always Pakistan first" is word for word the point I have been arguing .....a Muslim identity above sect, which is exactly what Jinnah built the League on and exactly what this Makkah pact, or any such pact, will need to survive.....

So you have finally given up the sectarian posture and made peace with documented historical facts..... Glad we got you there in the end.... Since our positions now align, I'll wish you a genuinely nice day.....
 
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Number of assets are not power, capability matter. Pakistan's assets are battle hardened.

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As for Pakistan, the lowest defense budget (5 to 7x lower than that of Turkey or KSA) => the greatest capability....

It it's not the effect of Bereket* than what is it???

*A single act of Hosh Aml done with Iman and Ihlas has a thousand Bereket bestowed upon it.
**Bereket = force multiplier for the Ehl-i Iman
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No one is sending any forces to Pak, nor can I envisage a scenario where Pak would request them. Even a full fledged war with India will NOT compel Pak to request manpower from anyone. Materialistic, economic support? MOST CERTAINLY. Manpower? Extremely unlikely.
Understood but is it also fair to say that rabid Indians high on their own sense of perceived Supapowa status and keen to prove it would have to factor this pact in before attacking again?
Is that strengthening of deterrence alone not well worth having?
That is aside from the technological and financial benefits which come with this agreement.
Indians are pissed at this pact for good reason. They now have more to worry about than the PAF just handing them their ass again.
 
Well, you have got it exactly backwards, and both your claims in this post can't stand scrutiny....


First, you are talking about rank and file, Devji about summit/leadership..... Sunnis were around 85% of Indian Muslims, so a Sunni-majority membership is a statistical inevitability that explains nothing........ What needs explaining is why that Sunni-majority body kept placing Ismaili Imams, Bohra industrialists, Shia Rajas and a Khoja barrister at its head and its treasury for 40 years straight, that's the entire lifespan of ML (pre-partition)...... and Devji's answer is that the sect-blind "general Islam" was the one formula under which those men could lead at all....

"The rank and file". "Kept placing". "40 years straight". Right...

The reason why minority sects were given important posts is because non-sectarianism was the only way they could get those posts? That made no sense. Regardless, did Devji present any evidence for his particular claim? That the league was made non-sectarian expressly so that the men from minority sects could lead? And what of your claim that the League's non sectarian "general Islam" was shaped by its Shia and Ismaili leadership to protect them from Sunnis? Did the Sunnis first make it non-sectarian 18 years before, during the Aligarh Movement, so that down the line they could form a political party with majority Sunni leadership who would then task another Sunni to codify its rules in which he would keep it non-sectarian so that minority leaders could rise to power and then.....again make it non-sectarian to protect themselves from Sunnis? Some people, who happened to be Sunnis, saw past these idiotic sectarian divides and formed a movement that was above it but that credit goes to the minority sects?.....

The explaining is simple when one is not searching for confirmation bias. The Aligarh Movement was a Muslim Nationalist movement with sectarianism against its very ethos. As such it appointed based on qualification, which it did for Sunnis, Shia, Ismaili, and Ahmadiya appointees. Minority sects holding positions of import is just as statistically inevitable as the majority making up the majority membership, in a non-sectarian organization. More if the those members hold un-statistically more favorable backgrounds, such as Imams, Industrialists, Rajas, and barristers.


ML may have emerged from the Aligarh movement, but its leadership, the ones calling the shots from day 1, were from the minority sects....

No they weren't. Present evidence. "Calling the shots"...

Second, the actual Sunni religious establishment fought Jinnah's general Islam tooth and nail...... Madani's Deoband, the biggest Sunni clerical body in India, wrote whole treatises declaring the two nation theory un-Islamic and put up candidates against the League in the 45-46 elections..... Maududi, another Sunni stalwart, called a League made Pakistan a kafir government of Muslims and declared voting itself haram..... The Ahrar coined Kafir-e-Azam for Jinnah and after losing in 46 openly said "Madhe Sahaba" should be used as a weapon against the League, a direct sectarian attack on his Shia background.....

"The actual Sunni religious establishment"? Again please spare us the rhetoric and conjecture that you need to downplay or uplift any sectarian views. The Muslim League was predominantly Sunni, was formed predominantly by Sunnis, was predominantly led by Sunnis, was based on a movement predominantly by Sunnis, was voted for and supported by the majority of Sunnis, and was voted for and supported by in majority Sunnis. That's "the actual Sunni establishment".

Want to know who the "actual minority establishment" was that opposed Pakistan?

So the custodians of Sunni orthodoxy didn't produce the League's sect blind Islam, they declared war on it, and attacked its leader sectarianly, which proves Devji's point better than anything....

A sectarian religious group did not come up with a non-sectarian political party!? Gasp! No way! Any minority sectarian religious groups that did? Want to know the minority orthodoxy that declared war on it as well?

The "general Islam" of the ML was a lay identity built against the clerical establishment, led by an Ismaili Imam, financed by a Shia Raja, and consummated by a Khoja barrister, while the Sunni masses voted for it over their own muftis' fatwas.....

No it wasn't. The "clerical establishment" was in self-exile from politics and had no presence at all at the time.

Sir Agha Khan officially presided as the president for 1 year in 1909. His lifetime presidency was an honorary position during which other presidents were being appointed in parallel to preside over their annual conferences. His immense contributions instead lay in his domestic and international political influence and party financing.

By the "Shia Raja" did you mean Mohammad Amir Ahmad Khan? *Would serve you well to remember the names of the people you want to piggyback off. Unquestionably a great man with immense services to the country, but you know that he was born 8 years after the Muslim League was formed, right? And that he opposed partition until 1940? Anyway, the party was almost exclusively financed by voluntary contributions and monthly subscriptions from most of the Muslim Nawabs, Rajas, aristocrats, and other wealthy Muslims. There was no one person financing it. For example, Khwaja Salimullah Bahadur, the Nawab of Dacca. Also the man who formally tabled the new party, served as the Vice President, and then as the President. He was Sunni, if that somehow matters.

The barrister was the only person who actual mattered or made a consequential difference, from the entirety of then India. His own words are enough to avoid any attempts at the sectarian flavoring of his being.

Thanks for mentioning three people. There were hundreds of thousands more Shia, Ismaili, Ahmadiya, Sunni, and Non-Muslims who worked hand in hand to make this country happen. Anyone who tries to take anything away from any one of them, individually or collectively, is either uneducated or insecure.

All that said, the positions in the party were on a rotatory basis. For example, the president's post changed 25 times from 1907 till 1937 until Jinnah took it his 5th time and revamped the party. Until then, it was a well-intentioned but exclusive rich boy's club that met once a year with little standing and less to show for it.

That's not a Sunni clerical doctrine grandfathered in, that's the double minority thesis in action....

Meaningless nonsensical statement clutching at some weird strawman of a "Sunni Clerical doctrine". Which minority's "clerical doctrine" was it then that made and ran the Muslim League?


There's a clear disconnect between your statements and just basic documented history. Don't believe you've ever made it past the hand full of names or "facts" someone once told you. Everything is available online these days.
 
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Well, "there is no Shia or Sunni first, it is always Pakistan first" is word for word the point I have been arguing .....a Muslim identity above sect, which is exactly what Jinnah built the League on and exactly what this Makkah pact, or any such pact, will need to survive.....

So you have finally given up the sectarian posture and made peace with documented historical facts..... Glad we got you there in the end.... Since our positions now align, I'll wish you a genuinely nice day.....

keep your BS to yourself, off you go
 
These "alliances" meant nothing. What did these Muslim nations produce at the time? Nothing.

Things are a little different now. Still, I don't see what benefit this alliance is for Turks and Pakistanis. We can still look after ourselves and don't really need each other.. a little different for Saudis as their Pan-Arabism Nationalism doesn't really exist beyond online forums.

While this Alliance might have good intentions I don't see how it works in an event of a serious war between Iran-Saudis or Pakistan-India and Turkiye-Israel.

It'll turn out how NATO is. Just join a war(all members) on smaller weaker deemed nations and act tough.
Your correct in saying back in the days we had nothing, so they were only paper led alliances, but I guess that's how everything starts, with some failures and slowly a real defence pact. Pakistan and Turkey are already great allies, during wars they will help each other no matter what, its historical ties. Saudia and Turkey were not close only a few years back but Saudi and Pakistan are close allies so Saudia requested Pakistan for a formal pact to make sure Al Saud royals/Saudia is protected just incase everything goes downhill, we witnessed how ISIS was hijacked and threatened Saudia, AlQaida threat, Iranian/Houthi threat, so alarms are ringing in Riyadh. Pakistan always wanted a Muslim Nato, for many decades we encouraged this but nothing was done, even during this war our leadership encouraged Saudia and Turkey to not start a war on Iran because of the bigger threat in the region, Pakistan also encouraged Iran to not target Saudia and Turkey, to make sure no internal Muslim war starts. Pakistan then requested Turkey to join the pact aswell.

Although I have my suspecious about the pact but I can see the benefits, with Turkish advance military weaponary, they need investment, buyers, and Saudia has the wealth, Pakistan has the nukes and powerful military. The 3 if work together can sort out alot of the issues facing Muslims in the middleeast. I can see Egypt, Kuwait, Bahrain, Syria, Qatar, Jordan joining down the line. The chance of Iran joining this pact is nil.
 
"The rank and file". "Kept placing". "40 years straight". Right...

The reason why minority sects were given important posts is because non-sectarianism was the only way they could get those posts? That made no sense. Regardless, did Devji present any evidence for his particular claim? That the league was made non-sectarian expressly so that the men from minority sects could lead? And what of your claim that the League's non sectarian "general Islam" was shaped by its Shia and Ismaili leadership to protect them from Sunnis? Did the Sunnis first make it non-sectarian 18 years before, during the Aligarh Movement, so that down the line they could form a political party with majority Sunni leadership who would then task another Sunni to codify its rules in which he would keep it non-sectarian so that minority leaders could rise to power and then.....again make it non-sectarian to protect themselves from Sunnis? Some people, who happened to be Sunnis, saw past these idiotic sectarian divides and formed a movement that was above it but that credit goes to the minority sects?.....

The explaining is simple when one is not searching for confirmation bias. The Aligarh Movement was a Muslim Nationalist movement with sectarianism against its very ethos. As such it appointed based on qualification, which it did for Sunnis, Shia, Ismaili, and Ahmadiya appointees. Minority sects holding positions of import is just as statistically inevitable as the majority making up the majority membership, in a non-sectarian organization. More if the those members hold un-statistically more favorable backgrounds, such as Imams, Industrialists, Rajas, and barristers.




No they weren't. Present evidence. "Calling the shots"...



"The actual Sunni religious establishment"? Again please spare us the rhetoric and conjecture that you need to downplay or uplift any sectarian views. The Muslim League was predominantly Sunni, was formed predominantly by Sunnis, was predominantly led by Sunnis, was based on a movement predominantly by Sunnis, was voted for and supported by the majority of Sunnis, and was voted for and supported by in majority Sunnis. That's "the actual Sunni establishment".

Want to know who the "actual minority establishment" was that opposed Pakistan?



A sectarian religious group did not come up with a non-sectarian political party!? Gasp! No way! Any minority sectarian religious groups that did? Want to know the minority orthodoxy that declared war on it as well?



No it wasn't. The "clerical establishment" was in self-exile from politics and had no presence at all at the time.

Sir Agha Khan officially presided as the president for 1 year in 1909. His lifetime presidency was an honorary position during which other presidents were being appointed in parallel to preside over their annual conferences. His immense contributions instead lay in his domestic and international political influence and party financing.

By the "Shia Raja" did you mean Mohammad Amir Ahmad Khan? *Would serve you well to remember the names of the people you want to piggyback off. Unquestionably a great man with immense services to the country, but you know that he was born 8 years after the Muslim League was formed, right? And that he opposed partition until 1940? Anyway, the party was almost exclusively financed by voluntary contributions and monthly subscriptions from most of the Muslim Nawabs, Rajas, aristocrats, and other wealthy Muslims. There was no one person financing it. For example, Khwaja Salimullah Bahadur, the Nawab of Dacca. Also the man who formally tabled the new party, served as the Vice President, and then as the President. He was Sunni, if that somehow matters.

The barrister was the only person who actual mattered or made a consequential difference, from the entirety of then India. His own words are enough to avoid any attempts at the sectarian flavoring of his being.

Thanks for mentioning three people. There were hundreds of thousands more Shia, Ismaili, Ahmadiya, Sunni, and Non-Muslims who worked hand in hand to make this country happen. Anyone who tries to take anything away from any one them, individually or collectively, is either uneducated or insecure.

All that said, the positions in the party were on a rotatory basis. For example, the president's post changed 25 times from 1907 till 1937 until Jinnah took it his 5th time and revamped the party. Until then, it was a well-intentioned but exclusive rich boy's club that met once a year with little standing and less to show for it.



Meaningless nonsensical statement clutching at some weird strawman of a "Sunni Clerical doctrine". Which minority's "clerical doctrine" was it then that made and ran the Muslim League?


There's a clear disconnect between your statements and just basic well documented history. I can only recommend that you read more.


Just went through your post and there are so many wrong claims in it that I don't have the time or energy to educate you on the basics, a few examples should suffice.....


The Aga Khan was the permanent president of the League from March 1908 to November 1913, five and a half years, your "1 year in 1909" confuses the rotating session chairs with the party presidency, two different offices.....


You mixed up the two Rajas of Mahmudabad while lecturing me on remembering names...... the father Mohammad Ali Mohammad Khan was the early financier and sits in the League's own session president list for 1918, the son Amir Ahmad, your "born 8 years later", bankrolled the 1937 to 47 phase.....


"Opposed partition until 1940" is an anachronism...... partition only became League policy with the Lahore Resolution in March 1940, there was nothing to support before that.....


And "the clerical establishment was in self exile with no presence at all", the JUH was founded in 1919 and ran the Khilafat Movement...... the largest ulema led mass mobilization in Indian Muslim history.....


Now let's keep it simple and brief..... Do you actually deny that almost the entire organized Sunni religious establishment, Madani's Deoband, the Ahrar, Maududi, opposed Jinnah and his Pakistan movement tooth and nail? Yes or no....
 
Saudi will try to bring in jordan and egypt down the line. Turkey will try to bring in azerbaijan and Syria. After that it could expand into North Africa like Algeria.
Jordan, Egypt, Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, Syria yes, Azerbaijan no need, they already have Turkish protection, Algeria nil, they are Russian ally.
 
One of the masterminds behind the Misak-i Mekka, Prof Dr Ibrahim Kalin (Turkish Intelligence Chief), presenting "orientalism" at a recent conference. As per the West and their true followers amongst the Muslims, nothing good or original can occur in the Muslim world! It's the ultimate deception of Satan....


International Conference on Orientalism | H.E. Prof. İbrahim Kalın
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Just went through your post and there are so many wrong claims in it that I don't have the time or energy to educate you on the basics, a few examples should suffice.....


The Aga Khan was the permanent president of the League from March 1908 to November 1913, five and a half years, your "1 year in 1909" confuses the rotating session chairs with the party presidency, two different offices.....


You mixed up the two Rajas of Mahmudabad while lecturing me on remembering names...... the father Mohammad Ali Mohammad Khan was the early financier and sits in the League's own session president list for 1918, the son Amir Ahmad, your "born 8 years later", bankrolled the 1937 to 47 phase.....


"Opposed partition until 1940" is an anachronism...... partition only became League policy with the Lahore Resolution in March 1940, there was nothing to support before that.....


And "the clerical establishment was in self exile with no presence at all", the JUH was founded in 1919 and ran the Khilafat Movement...... the largest ulema led mass mobilization in Indian Muslim history.....


Now let's keep it simple and brief..... Do you actually deny that almost the entire organized Sunni religious establishment, Madani's Deoband, the Ahrar, Maududi, opposed Jinnah and his Pakistan movement tooth and nail? Yes or no....

Absolutely f**k all to do with the thread topic
 
Just went through your post and there are so many wrong claims in it that I don't have the time or energy to educate you on the basics, a few examples should suffice.....


The Aga Khan was the permanent president of the League from March 1908 to November 1913, five and a half years, your "1 year in 1909" confuses the rotating session chairs with the party presidency, two different offices.....


You mixed up the two Rajas of Mahmudabad while lecturing me on remembering names...... the father Mohammad Ali Mohammad Khan was the early financier and sits in the League's own session president list for 1918, the son Amir Ahmad, your "born 8 years later", bankrolled the 1937 to 47 phase.....


"Opposed partition until 1940" is an anachronism...... partition only became League policy with the Lahore Resolution in March 1940, there was nothing to support before that.....


And "the clerical establishment was in self exile with no presence at all", the JUH was founded in 1919 and ran the Khilafat Movement...... the largest ulema led mass mobilization in Indian Muslim history.....


Now let's keep it simple and brief..... Do you actually deny that almost the entire organized Sunni religious establishment, Madani's Deoband, the Ahrar, Maududi, opposed Jinnah and his Pakistan movement tooth and nail? Yes or no....
sir you all are big guys may be. am just messing your discussion but what about justice ameer ali syed . He made the ML functional in England and use his infkuence to propagate ML narrative . After his death ML lost its role in London
 
Egypt wanted the bigger role in defence of gulf countries by making and leading arab block bit failed miserbaly . To counter it started building relation ship with uae as uae was not happy about the KSA. so it lead to dovergence in interest
Correct, bigger role . ( to be led by saudis that's hilarious).
and you are correct about UAE also , they are like a cancer in Egypt , I hope Iran finishes them.
 
sir you all are big guys may be. am just messing your discussion but what about justice ameer ali syed . He made the ML functional in England and use his infkuence to propagate ML narrative . After his death ML lost its role in London

Sir, you're not messing anything up....... you have actually strengthened the argument.....

Justice Ameer Ali is exhibit 4....... The man who founded the London Muslim League in 1908, presided over it, and ran the League's entire lobbying operation in Britain was a Twelver Shia, the first Indian ever on the Privy Council, and author of The Spirit of Islam.....

So the picture completes itself

Permanent president an Ismaili Imam
Party secretary a Lucknow Shia
London operations under a Twelver jurist,
and the eventual Quaid a Khoja.....

That's the summit of the League in its founding era, and exactly the point being discussed...... Thank you for adding him....
 
Correct, bigger role . ( to be led by saudis that's hilarious).
and you are correct about UAE also , they are like a cancer in Egypt , I hope Iran finishes them.
nop sisi wanted to led it but saudis rejected that idea.
 

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