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Mumbai : Prove Fire Temple Is Important To You, State Tells Parsis

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vsdoc

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Mumbai: Prove Fire Temple Is Important To You, State Tells Parsis

Setting community and MMRCL on warpath, govt pleader taunts petitioners: 'show more than two-and-a-half documents to prove that the Atash Behram is integral to Zoroastrianism
Anjuman-Atash-Behram_d.jpg
The Anjuman Atash Behram, one of the two temples likely to be affected by the Metro III underground tunnel. File pic

What was supposed to be a day to discuss an amiable solution to the ongoing Metro III-Atash Behram tussle, ended in yet another court hearing that questioned the importance of the holy structures for the Parsi community.

Arguing in the Bombay High Court, representatives of the state and central government said the "two-and-a-half documents" provided by the Parsi petitioners were "simply not enough" to prove how integral the Wadiaji and Anjuman Atash Behrams, which fall along the proposed alignment of Metro III, are for the Zoroastrian religion.

Ashutosh Kumbhakoni, advocate general representing the state government, stated that all beliefs cannot be granted protection under Article 25 of the Constitution (freedom of religion). He said, "We're dealing with a religion which built such a magnificent structure in the 1830s. We expect them to give evidence for the claims they're making. The two-and-a-half documents provided by them are simply not enough."

While Kumbhakoni did not specify which documents he was referring to, the petitioners have submitted an affidavit from Dr Rooyintan Peshotan Peer, a senior Parsi religious scholar, which describes the importance of the Atash Behrams.

'Material evidence'

Kumbhakoni further raised questions about the petitioner's claims that the community's fire temples will be desecrated if the Metro III underground tunnel is constructed anywhere beneath the Atash Behram premises. "There has to be material evidence to prove that the entire premises needs a connection with the earth, and that the religion will collapse if the tunnel goes under the premises that are consecrated. This has not been proven as per the material available on record," he said.

Raising similar points, Anil Singh, the additional solicitor general representing the central government referred to the concept of 'Karsh,' which are the protective spiritual circuits around the Atash Behrams, and stated that the scriptures had no mention about their physical boundaries.

mid-day had reported on August 22, in 'Metro III will devastate faith of Zoroastrians worldwide' about the community's lawyers stating in court that the Metro III construction violates their right to religious freedom. Navroz Seervai, one of the lawyers representing the Parsis, had told the court that the Atash Behrams are Grade III heritage structures, and, "If the Metro construction is allowed to continue, there could be irreversible spiritual damage and there are distinct chances of structural damage as well."

Parsis infuriated

The points raised by Kumbhakoni and Singh infuriated the members of the community who attended the hearing. They felt like they were being unfairly targeted, despite being one of the world's oldest surviving religions.

Yazdi Hodiwalla, a senior member of the community said, "More than 80 per cent of the scriptures were destroyed by Alexander III, and later, by the Arabs. Oral tradition is what we have now, which is passed down from generation to generation. We're unable to produce concrete documented proof, but that doesn't mean our religious beliefs aren't valid."

Absolutely integral

Referring to the state and Centre's statements as preposterous, Khojeste Mistree, a former trustee of the Bombay Parsee Punchayat and a religious scholar said, "The Atash Behrams are absolutely integral to our religion, and are the highest places of worship a Zoroastrian can go to. The customs and traditions are based on theology. Therefore, even if the scriptures are lost, the customs keep the religion alive," he said.

 
@Waz @Hyde The options to bold etc on top of a post are inactive for me. How can I use them?
 
@Waz @Hyde The options to bold etc on top of a post are inactive for me. How can I use them?

Is it? I'll ask tech folks to look it up. Which part which you like bolded?
Also wtf is wrong with these state government idiots? How dare they question of the community that punches well above its weight.
 
Is it? I'll ask tech folks to look it up. Which part which you like bolded?
Also wtf is wrong with these state government idiots? How dare they question of the community that punches well above its weight.
This was painful reading. Damn the Sangh.
 
Side waali gali me move kallo, inna kya ho gya ?

Ya to state walon ko bolo ki special engineering karo, one that will allow for the underground metro to pass through without it risking damage to either of the 2.

In Delhi, I can tell you, countless temples etc were made to make way for the metro thing.

Then again, it was Mr Sreedharan (the man is an absolute legend) who probably led the negotiation effort when it came to sensitive matters such as this.

One solution could be a temporary relocation. Then, once work is completed, rebuild the temple where it once stood, unless of course the whole area ends up being terraformed into something new.

Or, reinforce the foundation such that the structure remains as is and work can go on unimpeded.

----------------

wait a min, I just realized.. fire temple.. is also the last rites place ? .. if so, then damn, that complicates matters significantly.
 
Is it them bhai? Oh man if the Parsis are being questioned then that's it.
I think it's the general thick-hided attitude towards other than upper caste Hindus, and their muscular allies, the Rajputs, the Jats, the Gujjars and the Yadavs, that comes bubbling out in these uncertain times. My guess is this could never have happened in the previous Uddhav + NCP coalition.
I could be wrong. It could be due to the general coarsening of Indian society. 🙁
 
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Is it? I'll ask tech folks to look it up. Which part which you like bolded?
Also wtf is wrong with these state government idiots? How dare they question of the community that punches well above its weight.

This is what I am getting bro ...

Screenshot_2023-12-23-18-23-58-623_com.android.chrome.jpg

Cheers, Doc

P.S. We lost the case after years. The BMC started digging. When the drills reached 100 meters from the first Atash Behram, they miraculously stopped.

Experts were called in. Japanese. Korean. German. No avail. Different rigs bought in. All failed.

Finally they diverted the blueprints 150 away from the center beneath the Atash Behrams, and the sacred well (Bhikha Behram).

The drills restarted!

This is documented now in Municipality records. 😂

Cheers, Doc
 
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From Zoroastrian and Parsi community letters worldwide earlier this year in April 2023 -

The Power of Atash Behrams.

During the construction of Mumbai Metro, the Metro line was originally planned to go below both the Wadiaji and Anjuman Atash Behrams. Objections were raised by the Parsi Community that such a line would disturb the magnetic field between the Atash Behrams and the core of the earth. Being an electrical engineer by training I basically pooh-poohed this as fantasy cooked by crackpot individuals of the community.

Nonetheless the community at large tried to convince the Metro planners to divert the route so as to bypass the AtashBehrams, but to no avail. Metro planners would not budge.

The community sought the help of the Mumbai High Court but did not obtain the necessary legal relief. They then appealed to the Supreme Court of India for relief. The Parsi community was represented by stalworths of the Court like Fali Nariman but lost the case.

The contractors and planners of the Metro System were delighted and work that had stopped due to court action started right away.

Tunnel boring machines were set in place and started drilling. However, after drilling for a few meters they stopped. Engineers and technicians worked day and night to start the machine. They tried and tried, changed the heads, changed the hydraulics, etc. etc. but to no avail.

Finally they decided to alter the alignment of the tracks by a few degrees. And the machines worked like a charm like a hot knife slicing butter.

That small change in the route meant that the Metro line would not pass below both our Atash Behrams. You may call it whatever you like but to me this is nothing short of a modern day miracle.

I was arrogant to think I knew magnetism, but I do not know what I do not know.

Atash Padsha Panabad!!

Cheers, Doc

P.S. I'm no Saoshyant, but I had predicted this as early as in 2015 when battling Sanghi hordes on the Strategic Front Forum @PoKeMon

Of course, I was banned for my pains.

As I was on the India Defence Forum Dee Eff Eye

Fug them all.
 
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Experts were called in. Japanese. Korean. German. No avail. Different rigs bought in. All failed.

Finally they diverted the blueprints 150 away from the center beneath the Atash Behrams, and the sacred well (Bhikha Behram).

The drills restarted!
Hinduon k saath reh reh k

hamara superstition waala keeda aap ko bhi lag hi gaya ;)

:smug:

SAS.PNG
 
Wait. I shall dig up my prophecies there.

You guys do know that the first thing the Arabs did with their infant faith was to declare we Majoosi as practitioners of the dark realm arts.

The word Magic comes from Magii (singular - Magus).
 
Dark forces will be unleashed': the fire temple v the Mumbai metro

The Indian city desperately needs its new metro, but Zoroastrian priests are warning of a ‘backlash from nature’ – and they’re not the only detractors

Bachi Karkaria in Mumbai
Thu 14 Dec 2017 07.00 GMT

In early October, a petition was sent to the Indian prime minister, Narendra Modi, about the latest phase of the Mumbai metro – a 33.5km stretch that is currently under construction.

The petition claimed that the metro, if built, would “breach the magnetic circuits” of two Zoroastrian fire temples, thus “diminishing their spiritual powers” and unleashing “dark forces”. Signed by 11,000 people, the petition concluded that, the temples being “living, vibrant ... intermediaries between God and mankind” as they are, if these “holy fires are defiled, the backlash from nature will not spare those responsible”.

The third phase of Mumbai’s metro network will pass under some of the oldest, swankiest and most built up enclaves of south Mumbai – and will indeed tunnel close to two sacred Zoroastrian fire temples and a well invested with boon-granting powers. The dwindling Zoroastrian or Parsi community might number fewer than 45,000 in Mumbai (and just 56,000 in all of India) of the city’s roughly 18 million residents. But they are a high-profile group – and many of them have begun to see Ashwini Bhide, managing director of the Mumbai Metro Railway Corporation (MMRC), as an unlikely fifth horsewoman of the apocalypse.

Nor is it just Parsi priests fighting the metro. The project faces the ire of environmentalists, heritage activists – and, perhaps most vocal of all in this most Indian of cities, cricketers.

Mumbai desperately needs its new metro to begin to salvage its disastrously inadequate public transport system. Today the bulk of the burden is borne by the colonial-era commuter train network, which takes seven million passengers a day – seven times its intended capacity. On 29 September, 22 people died after a stampede on a footbridge at Prabhadevi, a station grossly ill-equipped to service the business towers that have risen above the former textile district of Lower Parel.

Would one risk constructing a metro line under a nuclear reactor? An imperial fire is far more delicately balanced.
- Hanoz Mistry

The first two phases were relatively uncontroversial. Phase 1, managed by the Mumbai Metropolitan Region Development Authority and a joint venture between Reliance Infrastructure, the French company Veolia and the Maharashtra government, is an 11.5km east-west elevated railway that opened in 2013. Phase 2 is 40km elevated suburban train line that is currently half-built.

Only the third phase is underground – and only the third phase passes under South Bombay, or SoBo, a pampered district where tolerance for intrusive metro construction is lower because so few of the rich residents need to use it. The stakes for approval of this phase, however, are high: it’s a $3.6bn (£2.7bn) partnership between the Indian government and the state of Maharashtra, with loans from the Japan International Cooperation Agency and hefty contracts for Indian agencies, as well as Chinese and Turkish infrastructure giants.

Bhide insists that the metro won’t damage the Parsi temples. At a meeting brokered by the state’s chief minister between the metro authorities and a Parsi delegation that included the two clerics who put forward the petition, Bhide pointed to government studies that declared the construction safe.

“We explained to them that the tunnel was going nowhere under the sanctum sanctorum,” she says. “Even the wells from which water is drawn for ceremonies are safely distant from the alignment. Moreover, they are embedded in the soil layer, and there’s a large buffer between that and the tunnel which bores through the basalt rock below.”

Firoz Kotwal, who presided for several decades over the Wadia Atash Behram temple in question, confirmed as much. “The MMRC team convinced us with concrete proof that there was no danger at all to the fire temple, and the chief minister gave us a personal assurance of safety. So the hue and cry is baseless,” Kotwal says. “Neither Zoroastrianism nor its rituals are in any danger from the metro tunnel.”

Kotwal also says that the “mystic circuits” cited in the petition are not a part of the ancient texts of Zoroastrianism in its 6th-century incarnation, but were introduced by the 19th-century Kshnum cult. Nevertheless, the idea has stuck. “And the minute you bring in religion, the government also panics.”

The high priest of Zoroastrianism’s holiest shrine (at Udvada in neighbouring Gujarat) and the community’s representative in the secular National Commission for Minorities is similarly concerned that the petition is fear run amok. “It is the work of a minuscule group with nothing better to do,” says Dastur Khurshed Dastur. “How to deal with eccentric people with closed minds out to whip up a fear psychosis?”

The Parsi Times has devoted several issues to clearing up what it calls “misinformation” regarding the 187-year-old temple, including pointing out that the MMRC certified that the temple was structurally sounder than most of its peers in Girgaon, a congested retail district. (Eight-five of the 348 buildings surveyed by MMRC were identified as having structurally problems ranging from “severe” to “very severe”.)

But the petition diehards aren’t letting up. “What about spiritual integrity?” says Hanoz Mistry, one of the signatories. “An Atash Behram [temple] is a composite whole, not just the consecrated fire enthroned in the sanctum sanctorum. There is no such thing as safe distance.

“Would one take the risk of constructing a metro line under a nuclear reactor, even though the concerned engineers may give all kinds of assurances on safety and structural stability? An Atash Padshah (imperial fire) is far, far more delicately and sensitively balanced and spiritually exalted.”

One compromise proposed by the delegation is to move the tunnel so that it passes just outside foundations of the fire temple wall.

But that would just be the first of the metro’s obstacles. Public hysteria has grown around the idea that the metro’s maw would swallow 20 cricket pitches from the public green of Azad Maidan, equally hallowed ground to some sports fans in this city.

Public hysteria has grown around the idea that the metro’s maw would swallow 20 cricket pitches from a public green
The powerful Maharashtra Cricket Association complained that the field would be lost to thousands of players young and old. They also note that the Mumbai police have commandeered an additional patch, to accommodate the group of protesters recently evicted from their traditional rallying ground, near the government secretariat – again, because of the metro construction.

Bhide argues the cricketers have the facts wrong. “Only 3.5 hectares of the 20 hectare [green] would be affected, and that, too, only during construction. The state’s cricket association has relocated some of these, and staggered timings for play.”

There have also been controversies centred on the MMRC’s commandeering of a 25-hectare tract of the green belt in the Aarey Milk Colony for a car depot, challenged by the National Green Tribunal, since 3,130 trees would be affected. And, more recently, about insufficient soil-testing on a stretch of tunnel below the “heritage mile”, an area of grand stone mercantile buildings. In August, a 100kg cornice fell off the JN Petit Library, a 119-year-old neo-Gothic building that has been recognised by Unesco.

Activists blamed the metro for the accident, and in October the Bombay High Court issued a two-month stay on metro construction work to reinforce the Petit building. Several other buildings, meanwhile, have developed cracks.

It is difficult to determine whether this has anything to do with the tunnelling: unlike Kolkata’s challenging soft-soil conditions, which stymied the construction of India’s first metro for years, Mumbai is built on basalt rock, and the metro will pass 25 metres below the surface.

But the MMRC is not helping its cause by dragging its feet over inquiries made under the Right to Information Act.

Whatever the validity of the protests and dangers, tunnel vision might be the bigger enemy. “The city will come to a standstill in a few years” without the metro, Bhide says. And phase three will almost certainly go forward regardless of the controversy: 14% of the civil work is complete, three tunnel boring machines have been lowered into the ground and another six are ready to go.

Magnetic circuits and dark forces might delay completion beyond the planned opening date of 2021, but the existential question for the metro is when, not if: with 1.7 million commuters expected daily there is, quite literally, too much riding on the outcome.


Cheers, Doc
 
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This was painful reading. Damn the Sangh.
Wow so now a civilian legal issue, where State's Solicitor general and Central rep in court, take opposing view to a minority praying place and become Sanghis?

Because they have Hindu names? Or as long as any Govt related karmachaari, because there is a BJP Govt in Center are supposedly Sanghis?

Damn, so as long as Congress doesn't come into power, society won't get back to normal I guess. Or maybe leftists? Or AAP Or which party, pray tell me comes to power to cleanse of this coarseness. Do these Solicitor generals and karmchaaris become secular, when whichever party other than BJP comes up if they do ever?

Its even painful to read your next post, god damn you have absolute hatred for anyone who is related to Govt. Doesn't matter what the issue is, we need a box for everyone.
 
day by day the power Is increasing.

main-qimg-ac4ca78fca8217d3fd51c2dd595df2d4-pjlq
 
Wow so now a civilian legal issue, where State's Solicitor general and Central rep in court, take opposing view to a minority praying place and become Sanghis?

Because they have Hindu names? Or as long as any Govt related karmachaari, because there is a BJP Govt in Center are supposedly Sanghis?

Damn, so as long as Congress doesn't come into power, society won't get back to normal I guess. Or maybe leftists? Or AAP Or which party, pray tell me comes to power to cleanse of this coarseness. Do these Solicitor generals and karmchaaris become secular, when whichever party other than BJP comes up if they do ever?

Its even painful to read your next post, god damn you have absolute hatred for anyone who is related to Govt. Doesn't matter what the issue is, we need a box for everyone.

Forget the politics.

Do you realise what's being asked of the Parsis?

Did the courts ask Hindus to prove that Bhagwan Ram was important to them?

Do you realise that we are Indians today to protect this same Fire?

Or we left our homeland to save our lives. All 20,000 Persians.

Cheers, Doc
 
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