• To help us reduce spam registrations, we kindly request new users to avoid using VPNs during sign-up. Accounts created via VPN may not be approved.

PA Options against Indian Armour - ATGMs on MANPADS & Attack Gunship Helicopter - News & Discussions

CSAW

Contributor
Joined
Mar 9, 2022
Messages
1,750
Reaction score
4,336
Country of Origin
Country of Residence
Modern day Battle Tanks that combine speed, protection, and firepower are still needed to Hold ground , can sprint rapidly across the battlefield, shrugging off hits, engaging enemy forces with cannons and machine guns, and driving deep behind enemy lines.

[ Below : The 'flying tanks,' T-80BVM, are now being equipped as standard with protection against precision-guided weapons]

1702790143338.png

Yet as powerful as they are, with right hardware & tanks can be stopped; even unarmored ground troops armed with the right weapons can kill the largest and best protected tanks dead.

Tanks are designed to kill enemy tanks - It was reported in Sep 2023 that the US-made M1 Abrams tank is at last in Ukraine, and while it has its limitations, it's more than just another piece of Western weaponry. It's heavy-duty, combat-proven armor that was built with a very specific mission in mind:
killing Russian tanks.

1702782486280.png


Improvements in antitank weapons and techniques to suppress armour such as "Top Attack Mode" are leading to Armor designs better able to withstand them and vice versa, with pendulum swings marking the temporary advantage of one or the other.

In recent years, the balance rested firmly on the side of well-trained infantry with both advanced guided missiles and unguided rockets.

1702784008208.png

The greatest of these capabilities are fire-and-forget, guided, top-attack missiles—the premier model being the American-made Javelin.

This weapon allows a single soldier to target and destroy even the most heavily armored main battle tank with an almost guaranteed kill rate, at great range and with minimal risk.

1702782703943.png

Infantry units will need new TTPs—tactics, techniques, and procedures—to defeat APS-equipped tanks. Development of these TTPs should begin now, and leaders at the small-unit level—commanders of light infantry companies, for example—should take the initiative to do so. Lacking large-caliber kinetic weapons (such as the sabot round delivered from an M1A2 Abrams), it could prove necessary to reduce the effectiveness of the APS before a kill can be guaranteed.

1702792720667.png
[Above: Recently Russian MOD published a video showing a Russian tank destroying a Ukrainian tank with the fire support of the combat vehicle (BMPT) “Terminator.”]

The critical weaknesses of an APS are an upper limit on its ability to handle volume of fire, its vulnerability to degradation by external forces, and the arc of its detection system and countermeasures—each of which should be considered as new TTPs are explored.

Attack helicopters such as the American AH-64E Apache Guardian and the Russian Ka-52 Alligator are very effective anti-tank weapons, often carrying long-range missiles with shaped charge anti-tank warheads such as the Hellfire missile.

Attack helicopters whizzing at treetop level can swiftly respond to reports of enemy tanks and set up deadly anti-tank ambushes. Attack helicopters, however, are vulnerable to surface to air missile systems: in thirteen months of war, Ukraine and Russia have lost more than sixty attack helicopters, mostly to ground fire. They are also expensive, with the AH-64E costing $33.6 million each.

1702782908513.png



 
Last edited:
Modern day Battle Tanks that combine speed, protection, and firepower are still needed to Hold ground , can sprint rapidly across the battlefield, shrugging off hits, engaging enemy forces with cannons and machine guns, and driving deep behind enemy lines.

Yet as powerful as they are, with right hardware & tanks can be stopped; even unarmored ground troops armed with the right weapons can kill the largest and best protected tanks dead.

View attachment 978


Improvements in antitank weapons led to armor better able to withstand them and vice versa, with pendulum swings marking the temporary advantage of one or the other. In recent years, the balance rested firmly on the side of well-trained infantry with both advanced guided missiles and unguided rockets. The greatest of these capabilities are fire-and-forget, guided, top-attack missiles—the premier model being the American-made Javelin. This weapon allows a single soldier to target and destroy even the most heavily armored main battle tank with an almost guaranteed kill rate, at great range and with minimal risk.

View attachment 979

Infantry units will need new TTPs—tactics, techniques, and procedures—to defeat APS-equipped tanks. Development of these TTPs should begin now, and leaders at the small-unit level—commanders of light infantry companies, for example—should take the initiative to do so. Lacking large-caliber kinetic weapons (such as the sabot round delivered from an M1A2 Abrams), it could prove necessary to reduce the effectiveness of the APS before a kill can be guaranteed. The critical weaknesses of an APS are an upper limit on its ability to handle volume of fire, its vulnerability to degradation by external forces, and the arc of its detection system and countermeasures—each of which should be considered as new TTPs are explored.

Attack helicopters such as the American AH-64E Apache Guardian and the Russian Ka-52 Alligator are very effective anti-tank weapons, often carrying long-range missiles with shaped charge anti-tank warheads such as the Hellfire missile. Attack helicopters whizzing at treetop level can swiftly respond to reports of enemy tanks and set up deadly anti-tank ambushes. Attack helicopters, however, are vulnerable to surface to air missile systems: in thirteen months of war, Ukraine and Russia have lost more than sixty attack helicopters, mostly to ground fire. They are also expensive, with the AH-64E costing $33.6 million each.

View attachment 980



I understand that the Pakistan Army has already acted on this understanding that your post describes; details will be available in great depth by @Signalian, and it will be cheeky to attempt it, when he is around. There are both 'light' and 'heavy' infantry formations focussed on neutralising armoured advances, and these are equipped at least at the MANPAD level.
It is interesting that you should raise the point.
One last point: the attack helicopter seems more and more a bad idea to pit against an adversary not yet broken and in flight, and capable of using MANPADs in anti-aircraft mode. Your post itself comments on the experience of the sides engaged in the Russia-Ukraine hostilities.
 
1702784083557.png

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.


ATGM.jpg

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.


To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.


To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.


To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
 
Last edited:
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.


To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
 
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.


1702784406314.png

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.


1702784631826.png
 
1702787973981.png1702787512756.png

1702787584263.png
1702787528543.png
1702787608542.png
1702787637836.png


1702788015222.png


- 125 Sejjeel (125mm Anti-Tank Ammunition)125 Sejjeel Anti-Tank Ammunition has been enhanced to penetrate 620 mm. A high-performance new generation of 125mm APFSDS ammunition fully compatible with all Main Battle Tanks of Pakistan Army including Al-Khalid, Al-Khalid-I, VT-4,

1702790889741.png
 
Last edited:
As any former western Tanker can tell you are basic tactic is get there fast and break things. That is it. All of the tactics are based on infantry tactics and movements. Tankers just do it quicker and with bigger guns.
 
Last edited:
View attachment 1014View attachment 1015
Baktar Shikan Salvo. Good against APS.

Hezbollah has already used something similar against Israeli Merkavas and got successful hits:

Its in the very initial stages. With its due share of inherent problems.....missile wires entangling with each other, rear transmitters of one missile giving input to other missile's FCS...and ofcourse in the pic there is no FCS mounted...then probability of of second missile to hit at exactly the same location as the first one in order to effectively neutralize ERA in place...then time of flight....its takes more than 30 seconds for the missile to reach its max range.....and to expect the bunch of tanks at front would remain static for half a minute....
 
then probability of of second missile to hit at exactly the same location as the first one in order to effectively neutralize ERA in place...then time of flight....its takes more than 30 seconds for the missile to reach its max range.....and to expect the bunch of tanks at front would remain static for half a minute....
These problems is it problems with the concept or with Baktar Shikan Salvo only?
Salvo atgm concept seems more suitable for fire and forget atgms.
Hitting same place on tank wouldn’t be a concern since salvo mean focus would be defeating APS and the individual missile it self should be able to deal with ERA?
It takes more than 30 seconds but isn’t Salvo designed to shoot rapidly after each other? I was reading into the Iranian “Tharallah” salvo atgm system and it’s designed to shoot 0.4 seconds after each other. Since the salvo is designed to be fired quicker than APS reload, I don’t think any tank will have enough time to move before the second atgm hits.
 
Regarding the newer forget & fire missiles

Careful lasers. Can be detected. Wires can’t. But over all wire guided missile is still a great weapon. Has its advantages and disadvantages no weapon is perfect.
 
Its in the very initial stages. With its due share of inherent problems.....missile wires entangling with each other, rear transmitters of one missile giving input to other missile's FCS...and ofcourse in the pic there is no FCS mounted...then probability of of second missile to hit at exactly the same location as the first one in order to effectively neutralize ERA in place...then time of flight....its takes more than 30 seconds for the missile to reach its max range.....and to expect the bunch of tanks at front would remain static for half a minute....
Companies under GIDS umbrella are increasing fielding thermal solutions including guidance. Maybe that’s the way to go. Independent fire and forget guidance.
 
I understand that the Pakistan Army has already acted on this understanding that your post describes; details will be available in great depth by @Signalian, and it will be cheeky to attempt it, when he is around. There are both 'light' and 'heavy' infantry formations focussed on neutralising armoured advances, and these are equipped at least at the MANPAD level.
It is interesting that you should raise the point.
One last point: the attack helicopter seems more and more a bad idea to pit against an adversary not yet broken and in flight, and capable of using MANPADs in anti-aircraft mode. Your post itself comments on the experience of the sides engaged in the Russia-Ukraine hostilities.
Deployment of a the weapon is the most important part so that it makes a difference where needed.

There are lots of ATGMs and shoulder mounted SAMs along with AAA guns. Majority of ATGMs are wire guided, not FnF, that will be a point of concern. SAMs have low altitude hitting capability, majority are IR guided, not laser guided like RBS-70. The AAA guns can prove effective against drones at low altitude when in swarm-attack mode.

IAF's M2K and Rafale can wreak havoc on PA armor if PA's armor crosses into India and there is no worthwhile medium to long range SAM can prove an effective deterrent against IAF in this case. PAF will need to be called in and cant say if PAF shows up.

PA/PAF is getting UCAVs with ATGMs and other LR A2G weaponry, lets see if that can help neutralize IA's armor instead of sending in gunships. AH-1Fs have wire-guided TOWs and BKTSs, for which gunship has to hover till target is hit, it cant fire the next ATGM. Again, AGM-114 type missile capability will be found in any new gunship which PA gets God knows when.

As for LATs and HATs- their roles keep on changing (like going back to standard infantry regiment), but the high mobility is the key aspect on which they excel. The 4x4 vehs are gone and tracked have taken their place in these units. Again, the M-113 and Talhas stand still, fire ATGM, hit target and then move. This kind of old school wireguided tech will just cause delays in own advance even if effective against IA armor. The top attack munition should be there, like a laser guided or mmw radar seeker or even IR guided like Javelin.

One aspect not pointed out is the ability of artillery to take out enemy armor. Im not sure if M712 Copperhead is being used by PA, but it can be used by M-109 and M-198 artillery. Maybe SH-1 has capability against enemy armor. I remember seeing a presentation of artillery howitzers being deployed with anti-armor ammunition but it was a long time back and I had to sit forcibly in auditorium to watch it so don't remember much 😁
 
Deployment of a the weapon is the most important part so that it makes a difference where needed.

There are lots of ATGMs and shoulder mounted SAMs along with AAA guns. Majority of ATGMs are wire guided, not FnF, that will be a point of concern. SAMs have low altitude hitting capability, majority are IR guided, not laser guided like RBS-70. The AAA guns can prove effective against drones at low altitude when in swarm-attack mode.

IAF's M2K and Rafale can wreak havoc on PA armor if PA's armor crosses into India and there is no worthwhile medium to long range SAM can prove an effective deterrent against IAF in this case. PAF will need to be called in and cant say if PAF shows up.

PA/PAF is getting UCAVs with ATGMs and other LR A2G weaponry, lets see if that can help neutralize IA's armor instead of sending in gunships. AH-1Fs have wire-guided TOWs and BKTSs, for which gunship has to hover till target is hit, it cant fire the next ATGM. Again, AGM-114 type missile capability will be found in any new gunship which PA gets God knows when.

As for LATs and HATs- their roles keep on changing (like going back to standard infantry regiment), but the high mobility is the key aspect on which they excel. The 4x4 vehs are gone and tracked have taken their place in these units. Again, the M-113 and Talhas stand still, fire ATGM, hit target and then move. This kind of old school wireguided tech will just cause delays in own advance even if effective against IA armor. The top attack munition should be there, like a laser guided or mmw radar seeker or even IR guided like Javelin.

One aspect not pointed out is the ability of artillery to take out enemy armor. Im not sure if M712 Copperhead is being used by PA, but it can be used by M-109 and M-198 artillery. Maybe SH-1 has capability against enemy armor. I remember seeing a presentation of artillery howitzers being deployed with anti-armor ammunition but it was a long time back and I had to sit forcibly in auditorium to watch it so don't remember much 😁
Some more points to add to this very detailed post

Traditionally the Pakistani ground forces' unit structure have always been steered toward NATO-style composition, with both advantages and disadvantages - one of which being a relative negligence on accompanying anti-aircraft capability. Unlike modern Sino-Russian unit composition where army units enjoy command and cover of various, mulit-tiered air defense bubble layers (S-300V - Buk - Tor - Pantsir), Pakistani air defense systems are usually in command of the Air Force, not army, and used primarily in support of air campaigns or defending air bases, which exposes ground units to not just conventional air threats, but as current experience have shown, an incredible vulnerability against loitering munition and improvised drone attacks. This is certainly a very important aspect where PA have room for improvement in, but air defense systems don't come cheap and it is certainly a very big challenge. India have a large, relatively outdated, but present accompanying air defense capability, which, as TB-2 Ukraine experience have shown, is enough to render most MALE drones ineffective.

On the topic of ATGMs, currently they are generally placed in 4 generations - 1st gen MCLOS (AT-1/SS-11), 2nd gen SACLOS (TOW/Kornet, most used ATGM goes here), 3rd gen FnF (Javelin, HJ-12), and 4th gen man-in-the-loop NLOS (French MMP, Spike NLOS, HJ-10). From experiences in Ukraine have shown, FnF ATGMs are not as effective as desired due to a number of factors - the "top attack" profile, at most meaningful ranges, is more like approaching at 30-60 degrees of attack from above, which against russian style tanks's frontal profile, would still result in most warheads either landing on the main hull armour or on the turret's extended ERA module, with very limited profile of turret roof and engine deck being vulnerable. And because of the lack of shooter intervention, the ATGM is incredibly inflexible, either in attacking vehicle weak points, or use against structures and positions. 2nd gen SACLOS missiles remains the most cost effective and most widely used options (this includes HJ-8/Baktar Shikan and Kornet-E), although 4th gen NLOS options should be considered against evolving Indian ground capabilities.

SH-1 have the ability to use all NATO howitzer munitions (including guided ones), while China offers both GP-1 laser guided projectile (155 version of krasnopol), and Beidou satellite guided V-LAP projectiles, both already in service with Saudi PLZ-45s.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Latest Posts

Back
Top