Su-30MKI - Super Sukhoi Upgrade Program

[indushek]

Awaiting help from Mods, to get the data from old PDF to fill this up.

 

[Archie]

Indian Air Force Advances: Su-30 MKI Upgrade with Indigenous Technologies and Strategic Partnerships​

The design and development phase is expected to span four to five years, followed by the initiation of fleet modernization. The Su-30MKI fleet has been undergoing a continuous “spiral upgrade” for over a decade, integrating new weapons and sensors.​

Written by Huma Siddiqui

November 30, 2023 18:30 IST

The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), led by Defence Minister Rajnath Singh, granted Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) for the indigenous upgrade of Su-30 MKI Aircraft by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

The Air Chief, in one of the earlier interactions with the media, indicated plans to upgrade 84 Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jets at a cost slightly exceeding Rs 60,000 crore. The HAL facility, in collaboration with the Indian Air Force and other partners, will handle the upgrades, excluding modifications to the airframe and engines.

Reports in the public domain indicate that the first batch of 100 SU-30s will undergo upgrades, including electronic warfare suite enhancements, avionics, and radar improvements.

The design and development phase is expected to span four to five years, followed by the initiation of fleet modernization. The Su-30MKI fleet has been undergoing a continuous “spiral upgrade” for over a decade, integrating new weapons and sensors.

Indigenous additions to Su-30MKI weaponry include BrahMos and Astra air-to-air missiles. Further integration is anticipated, involving Rudarm-1 new generation anti-radiation missiles (NGARMs), Rudram-2, Rudram-3, and Astra-2. Rudram missiles are designed to neutralize various enemy surveillance, communication, and radar targets on the ground from stand-off distances.

The successful flight test of Rudram-1 NGARM on October 9, 2020, marked a milestone, striking a radiating target off the coast of Odisha. Subsequent developments include the DRDO’s plans to develop Rudram-2 (350 km range) and Rudram-3 (550 km) air-to-ground missiles.

A schematic for an electronic warfare suite, presented during Aero India 2023, hinted at ongoing efforts to replace current Russian SAP-51 pods on IAF’s Su-30 MKI fleet.

https://www.financialexpress.com/business/defence-indian-air-force-advances-su-30-mki-upgrade-with-indigenous-technologies-and-strategic-partnerships-3322038/

Will Russia be part of the upgrade?

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Yes. Talks with Russia since 2017 have focused on upgrading the existing SU-30 MKI fleet, aligning with India’s goal of maximizing indigenous systems. Following the 19th IRIGC-M&MTC meeting in Moscow on November 6, 2019, Russia committed to supporting the development of a prototype for an upgraded Su-30MKI at HAL.

Contrary to engine upgrades, reports suggest a deliberate effort to minimize costs. The Indian Air Force’s preference for beyond-visual-range (BVR) combat diminishes the significance of super manoeuvrability. The planned upgrade features a new radar, potentially the Tikhomirov NIIP N035 Irbis E, comparable to an AESA radar.

Director General – Electronics & Communication Systems (ECS) at DRDO BK Das outlined plans to integrate the Uttam Radar with fighter jets like Sukhoi-30MKI and Mig-29 by 2025, following successful integration with Tejas Mk-1.

Considering the design and development timeline for the Su-30MKI upgrade variant, it remains a possibility that DRDO will have a suitable Uttam variant for the upgraded fighters. However, inherent challenges in new development projects may lead to timeline uncertainties.

 

[Oscar]

The thing that is troubling the IAF about the MKi isn’t electronics or weapons related - its its massive RCS that makes it show up on radars far far away.

So much so that the Russians dangled another carrot on supposed lessons they have learned from the Su-35 they want to apply to the SM that the IAF is watching this program(as the Russians want) more clowns than any 5th gen program.

After all, a superhornet type RCS reduction to the MKi would truly make it unbeatable but then it also is a tall order.

Stay tuned for that… not the radars or the missiles.

 

[Guru Dutt]

The thing that is troubling the IAF about the MKi isn’t electronics or weapons related - its its massive RCS that makes it show up on radars far far away.

So much so that the Russians dangled another carrot on supposed lessons they have learned from the Su-35 they want to apply to the SM that the IAF is watching this program(as the Russians want) more clowns than any 5th gen program.

After all, a superhornet type RCS reduction to the MKi would truly make it unbeatable but then it also is a tall order.

Stay tuned for that… not the radars or the missiles.

RCS of SU30 MKI is said to ne 20mtr squ but then it also gives a massive range and load carrying capacity and now IAF is uprading it with Indian develpoed and made LRUs and avionics and GaN based UTTAM ASEA Radar called Virushka with almost 2100 TRMs and if things go as planned we just might get AL41 engine upgrade aswell instead of AL31 giving a 20KN power boost per engine while new range of indian and french air to air and air to ground missiles replacing russian ones ..... so when we are fighting bigger RCS problem can and will be deduced with onboard jammers and electronic warfare suites and other counter -couter measures that are now being tested on MKI so dont worry about RCS problem too much worry about those poor soles who will be on the reciving end

 

[Oscar]

RCS of SU30 MKI is said to ne 20mtr squ but then it also gives a massive range and load carrying capacity and now IAF is uprading it with Indian develpoed and made LRUs and avionics and GaN based UTTAM ASEA Radar called Virushka with almost 2100 TRMs and if things go as planned we just might get AL41 engine upgrade aswell instead of AL31 giving a 20KN power boost per engine while new range of indian and french air to air and air to ground missiles replacing russian ones ..... so when we are fighting bigger RCS problem can and will be deduced with onboard jammers and electronic warfare suites and other counter -couter measures that are now being tested on MKI so dont worry about RCS problem too much worry about those poor soles who will be on the reciving end

1 All the radars and jammers are irrelevant to RCS . RCS is a function of physics that is not drowned by electronic noise - the jammers may prevent a lock to an extent but it wont reduce anything.
You can fit a hyperspace engine onto it and it wont do squat to the RCs

2. Please do not repeat the same raam leela 16 year old level tangential copy paste arguments as you have done to the post as you did at pdf- happy to not have a discussion with you and can ignore you exist.

 

[Guru Dutt]

1 All the radars and jammers are irrelevant to RCS . RCS is a function of physics that is not drowned by electronic noise - the jammers may prevent a lock to an extent but it wont reduce anything.
You can fit a hyperspace engine onto it and it wont do squat to the RCs

2. Please do not repeat the same raam leela 16 year old level tangential copy paste arguments as you have done to the post as you did at pdf- happy to not have a discussion with you and can ignore you exist.

wrong again sir ji RCS is good till detecting but next phase is getting a lockon the target which is very difficult with very powerfull onboard jammers and electronik warfare suites when you fire a missile at Su30 but its electronik waefare suite confuses the missiles or its jammers jamm the missile the missile go to waste and in this day and age pricission bombings arealso done at safe standoff ranges by laser guided and smart bombs so RCS dose not matter that much even most ariel engegments will be beynd visual range thats the main reason why they fir multiple missiles on one ariel target

by the way whats a hyper space engine ..???

 

[Archie]

WHEN Russia introduced Su35K with In the year 2012 ,India had 120 su30mki
I don't know which Idiot decided to induct a further 150 Su30MKI based on the same specs which were framed in Yr 2001
The Su30MKI inducted in year 2020 had pretty much the same specs as the one inducted in 2004
Even though their was a 16 year gap in their induction
Now we will have to spend 15 Billion USD In upgrading around 180 Su30Mki to Su35k standards

It's quite possible that by the time Su30MKI begin getting upgraded , some of original squadron pilots would have retired and replaced by their grown up sons flying the same aircraft.

 

[Guru Dutt]

WHEN Russia introduced Su35K with In the year 2012 ,India had 120 su30mki
I don't know which Idiot decided to induct a further 150 Su30MKI based on the same specs which were framed in Yr 2001
The Su30MKI inducted in year 2020 had pretty much the same specs as the one inducted in 2004
Even though their was a 16 year gap in their induction
Now we will have to spend 15 Billion USD In upgrading around 180 Su30Mki to Su35k standards

It's quite possible that by the time Su30MKI begin getting upgraded , some of original squadron pilots would have retired and replaced by their grown up sons flying the same aircraft.

thats the whole point why we invest in projects like LCA cause be it US 7UK /France or Russia every one takes there share of profit even if it bleeds there so called friends in 2004 french took 40 million per plane to upgrade a single mirage2000 and it did not include engine almost half that ammount was paid to russian for upgrade Mig29s hence when BJP came to power they decided to go indian on super sukhoi upgrade cause had we went ahead with russian offer it would have costed twice as whats its costing now and we right now have over 270 MKIs in IAF .... imagine 270 MKIs with indian LRUs and avionics and Radar and weapons and posibally even a kaveri variant for replacing AL31 engines meaning no delays in waiting for critical spares and technical help at very crucial time saving billions of dollars every year only in mantainence and running costs

 

[harpy1]

Hopefully India will upgrade only half the fleet and the the other mki replaced by mrfa or rafale order in 2024 with delivery starting 2027.
This may give India
130 super mki
150 rafale IE 36+114
200 Tejas mark1a
Leaving 130 base line su30

 

[Oscar]

wrong again sir ji RCS is good till detecting but next phase is getting a lockon the target which is very difficult with very powerfull onboard jammers and electronik warfare suites when you fire a missile at Su30 but its electronik waefare suite confuses the missiles or its jammers jamm the missile the missile go to waste and in this day and age pricission bombings arealso done at safe standoff ranges by laser guided and smart bombs so RCS dose not matter that much even most ariel engegments will be beynd visual range thats the main reason why they fir multiple missiles on one ariel target

by the way whats a hyper space engine ..???

Better response but I disagree -
The jammer is important but its a weight between jammer burn through and radar power - the flipside is that new missiles on opposing sides both west and north of India have been specifically designed to be lobbed at a specific area and then go home on jam(nothing to do with India actually but a different adversary for the OEM)

So the RCS does matter, the ability to keep emissions low matters and first shot , first kill matters.

So far the MKI best bet lies with the Astra since the I-derby has petered out to trickles and all the airframe and engine upgrades you mentioned rely on a supplier that is too busy losing its own airframes and struggling to meet local demand.

But dil behlane ko khayal acha hai

 

[Guru Dutt]

Better response but I disagree -
The jammer is important but its a weight between jammer burn through and radar power - the flipside is that new missiles on opposing sides both west and north of India have been specifically designed to be lobbed at a specific area and then go home on jam(nothing to do with India actually but a different adversary for the OEM)

So the RCS does matter, the ability to keep emissions low matters and first shot , first kill matters.

So far the MKI best bet lies with the Astra since the I-derby has petered out to trickles and all the airframe and engine upgrades you mentioned rely on a supplier that is too busy losing its own airframes and struggling to meet local demand.

But dil behlane ko khayal acha hai

India is already making Astra 1 and Astra two is under testing and astra III under R&D phase and we are actually in no hurry as even in current form MKI makes enough power to carry 8 missiles and a external jammer POD on its wingtip it can infact carry two differnt types of PODs on wingtips and thats already been worked to make it that way as ASRAAM is to be manufactured in india and can be carried on twin rack on outer most pylon each side thats four ASRAAMs and say six ASTRA i & possibally mark two and one rudram type anty radar missile on centerline and it still genrates enough power and has speed and range

as for RCS when it can track a F16 or JF17 or J10 way far 250+ Kms and engage 8 to 12 targets simontainiously i am sure it nullifies the RCS problem as ASTRA has lock on before and after shooting the missile or whatever fancy ligo they have for it ... hope you know what i mean i am no pilot or air force guy

Hopefully India will upgrade only half the fleet and the the other mki replaced by mrfa or rafale order in 2024 with delivery starting 2027.
This may give India
130 super mki
150 rafale IE 36+114
200 Tejas mark1a
Leaving 130 base line su30

bhai make .... no more so called MTFA coming but only few more rafales and LCA MK1A & possibally MK2s and AMCA uske ilawa maybe rafale M and thats it

 

[Oscar]

India is already making Astra 1 and Astra two is under testing and astra III under R&D phase and we are actually in no hurry as even in current form MKI makes enough power to carry 8 missiles and a external jammer POD on its wingtip it can infact carry two differnt types of PODs on wingtips and thats already been worked to make it that way as ASRAAM is to be manufactured in india and can be carried on twin rack on outer most pylon each side thats four ASRAAMs and say six ASTRA i & possibally mark two and one rudram type anty radar missile on centerline and it still genrates enough power and has speed and range

as for RCS when it can track a F16 or JF17 or J10 way far 250+ Kms and engage 8 to 12 targets simontainiously i am sure it nullifies the RCS problem as ASTRA has lock on before and after shooting the missile or whatever fancy ligo they have for it ... hope you know what i mean i am no pilot or air force guy

View attachment 3207


bhai make .... no more so called MTFA coming but only few more rafales and LCA MK1A & possibally MK2s and AMCA uske ilawa maybe rafale M and thats it

Why offer the excuse of no hurry? What is with the "we can do this and that and that" in future tenses?

What India is making and what it can produce in numbers varies - The Astra program had helped establish(actually it was the Akash and some local assembly of R series) the backbone for India's missile program but the pipeline is still not scaled enough to really fulfill all needs which is why the Astra is deployed in very limited numbers to very select units.
The rest of Asraam or not, Rudram or not is IRRELEVANT to the core issues of RCS combined with fleetwide avionics.

This isnt your car that you take it to the shop and retrofit a new stereo -
Currently out of the 208 aircraft or so on Indian sheets - actual serviceable aircraft are around 55-60% depending upon units.
To undertake the retrofit you are talking about that is on the roadmap - even at the rate of 20 aircraft per year(which is NOT the case) each of these serviceable and non-serviceable jets needs to be taken offline to HAL - given a retrofit and then given their FCF before returning to units.
How about asking an actual IAF officer on this? - I dare you!, because I have an ex one who comes for Snooker at the local club here.

They have plenty of experience with how low serviceable numbers of M2Ks and Jaguar Darins became in certain units during those times EVEN with outside assistance. And this is NOT unique to the IAF, the PAF went through the same when the F-16s were being upgraded.

To top it off, you are talking about AL-41 upgrades as if its sitting on shelves and stores( tumhare pichware ki tuc shop hai ke ja ke Parle-G ja ke le aye) when that supplier is currently in chaos.

As for tracking those aircraft - it cannot - it could not do it in practice 5 years ago simply because those aircraft have a lower RCS and maintained emissions discipline. I know you HAVE to defend this program and let me reiterate the MKi is a power beautiful machine - BUT it has serious limitations due to its age and while upgrades have been applied sporadically across the fleet it has been difficult due to systems integrations issues.

It comes out in various common defense articles and your own members mention it on and off in years.

YES - when these upgrades come through it will be even more fearsome, but the rest of it is just you being a fanboy and trying your best to bat through.

Just like Guru Dutt - waiting on Waheeda Rehman in fanciful ideas - dont end up like him

 

[Guru Dutt]

Why offer the excuse of no hurry? What is with the "we can do this and that and that" in future tenses?

What India is making and what it can produce in numbers varies - The Astra program had helped establish(actually it was the Akash and some local assembly of R series) the backbone for India's missile program but the pipeline is still not scaled enough to really fulfill all needs which is why the Astra is deployed in very limited numbers to very select units.
The rest of Asraam or not, Rudram or not is IRRELEVANT to the core issues of RCS combined with fleetwide avionics.

This isnt your car that you take it to the shop and retrofit a new stereo -
Currently out of the 208 aircraft or so on Indian sheets - actual serviceable aircraft are around 55-60% depending upon units.
To undertake the retrofit you are talking about that is on the roadmap - even at the rate of 20 aircraft per year(which is NOT the case) each of these serviceable and non-serviceable jets needs to be taken offline to HAL - given a retrofit and then given their FCF before returning to units.
How about asking an actual IAF officer on this? - I dare you!, because I have an ex one who comes for Snooker at the local club here.

They have plenty of experience with how low serviceable numbers of M2Ks and Jaguar Darins became in certain units during those times EVEN with outside assistance. And this is NOT unique to the IAF, the PAF went through the same when the F-16s were being upgraded.

To top it off, you are talking about AL-41 upgrades as if its sitting on shelves and stores( tumhare pichware ki tuc shop hai ke ja ke Parle-G ja ke le aye) when that supplier is currently in chaos.

As for tracking those aircraft - it cannot - it could not do it in practice 5 years ago simply because those aircraft have a lower RCS and maintained emissions discipline. I know you HAVE to defend this program and let me reiterate the MKi is a power beautiful machine - BUT it has serious limitations due to its age and while upgrades have been applied sporadically across the fleet it has been difficult due to systems integrations issues.

It comes out in various common defense articles and your own members mention it on and off in years.

YES - when these upgrades come through it will be even more fearsome, but the rest of it is just you being a fanboy and trying your best to bat through.

Just like Guru Dutt - waiting on Waheeda Rehman in fanciful ideas - dont end up like him

Oscar Sirji we are in no hurry as we are not sitting idle ... air combat as of in today envoirment is not just about RCS and missiles but many other factors and in current scenarios we are working on them all and for that matter we just dont have SU30 MKI to take care of PAF its for PLAAF for PAF we have designated Jaguars and LCAs and upgraded Mirage2000 & fulkrums and the rest is taken care by short ranged missiles and rocket propelled artilarry and UAV & UCAVs as alomost all important strategick pakistani targets are within 35 to 185 KM from indian border ... you dont use a sabre where its a job of a knife

 

[Faceless]

imagine 270 MKIs with indian LRUs

Honestly I don't want to imagine that for the simple reason that it would be ducking expensive with very diminishing returns.
We would be better off inducting TEDBF by that time instead of upgrading obsolete Su 30s.
Upgrade just 150 mki's
TEBDF will cost a bit more but will offer us capabilities similiar to Rafale where as Su 30 upgrades of the second batch will cost us nearly the same with no apparent benefits that TEBDF can't offer

 

[Guru Dutt]

Honestly I don't want to imagine that for the simple reason that it would be ducking expensive with very diminishing returns.
We would be better off inducting TEDBF by that time instead of upgrading obsolete Su 30s.
Only upgrade the 120 mki bought in 2001 and not the 150 bought later in 2015.
TEBDF will cost a bit more but will offer us capabilities similiar to Rafale where as Su 30 upgrades of the second batch will cost us nearly the same with no apparent benefits that TEBDF can't offer

and where will you put these 270+ Flankers and how will you fill the gap of these 270 fighters cause TEDBF wont appear just in a year they will take many years what till then ...?

we progress in a step by step manner and there is no short cut to success you have to go through the drill

1. get yourself to that technical level to upgrade your foriegn fighters at home maybe expensive or late but at least your doing it and gaining expereances and keep upgrading and devloping new technologies and thats how western nations reached here

2. start manufacturing all sub systems inhouse and startusing them on those fighters slowoly making those whole fighters and simontainously making yor own fighters and weapons

thats what we are doing and thats tthe only way forward you cant get on top of everest overnight