Turkish Helicopter Programs

[hyperman]

Just a heads up, some of the content is old, but im just populating the new forum with the sticky threads of important elements of Turkish defense discussions, so there is a thread already there to discuss topics.

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[hyperman]

@MMM-E

Do you know what the timeline for the Gokbey is? When its set for entering into production and service?

 

[Merzifonlu]

@MMM-E

Do you know what the timeline for the Gokbey is? When its set for entering into production and service?

In the first quarter 2025 or end of 2024.

 

[Deino]

Any recent news on the T-929?

 

[hyperman]

Any recent news on the T-929?

Set to fly at the end of the year. They said more test flights to come.

 

[Merzifonlu]

The last digit "9" means attack helicopter. And "5" means general purpose helicopter. Since it is coded T-929, this is an attack helicopter. The T-929 heavy attack helicopter has been postponed for a long time. Because, a) there is no suitable domestic engine and b) it is not urgently needed.

On the other hand, T-925 general purpose helicopter will be produced only for the Ministry of Forestry and for the purpose of fighting wildfires. If I remember correctly, 11 units will be produced, because only enough Ukrainian engines for that many helicopters were purchased.

Lastly, the T-629 (6 tonne class attack helicopter) using the Gökbey's TS-1400 engine&powertrain and T-129's avionics is planned. But I do not know when the T-629 project will start.

Although it is not very urgent, we will need a significant number of helicopters. Therefore we must develop the TS-3000 engine. However, currently all resources are allocated for Kaan's 35000 lb class turbofan engine. When the TS-3000 engine enters mass production, we will be able to work on T-929/925 helicopters and their navalized versions.

 

[hyperman]

The last digit "9" means attack helicopter. And "5" means general purpose helicopter. Since it is coded T-929, this is an attack helicopter. The T-929 heavy attack helicopter has been postponed for a long time. Because, a) there is no suitable domestic engine and b) it is not urgently needed.

On the other hand, T-925 general purpose helicopter will be produced only for the Ministry of Forestry and for the purpose of fighting wildfires. If I remember correctly, 11 units will be produced, because only enough Ukrainian engines for that many helicopters were purchased.

Lastly, the T-629 (6 tonne class attack helicopter) using the Gökbey's TS-1400 engine&powertrain and T-129's avionics is planned. But I do not know when the T-629 project will start.

Although it is not very urgent, we will need a significant number of helicopters. Therefore we must develop the TS-3000 engine. However, currently all resources are allocated for Kaan's 35000 lb class turbofan engine. When the TS-3000 engine enters mass production, we will be able to work on T-929/925 helicopters and their navalized versions.

Can the turboshaft team that worked on the TS-1400 be reallocated for TS-3000 once it enters mass production?

Would it be possible to use the GE T700 for the 925 and 929 as an alternative engine? they are already license producing the T700 in Turkey for the Turkish variant of the S-70 Black Hawk in Turkey. Might be worth developing an alternative engine prototype if the Ukrainian engine supply becomes an issue.

 

[Merzifonlu]

Can the turboshaft team that worked on the TS-1400 be reallocated for TS-3000 once it enters mass production?

Would it be possible to use the GE T700 for the 925 and 929 as an alternative engine? they are already license producing the T700 in Turkey for the Turkish variant of the S-70 Black Hawk in Turkey. Might be worth developing an alternative engine prototype if the Ukrainian engine supply becomes an issue.

Since the Kaan's TF-35000 turbofan engine project has consumed all monetary and human resources, no team can be allocated to the TS-3000 engine project until TF-3000 turbofan engine enters mass production.

I don't have any expectations for Yankee engines. It would be a surprise to me if it happens. Since the S70 general purpose helicopter license has not been extended, GE T700 engines are not currently produced under license in TEI facilities. Production stopped now.

Moreover, the current GE T700 engines have a power of 2500 HP. We need 3000 HP engines. Therefore, a new agreement is required.

 

[hyperman]

Moreover, the current GE T700 engines have a power of 2500 HP. We need 3000 HP engines. Therefore, a new agreement is required.

Hmm.. I thought the ATAK 2 and 925 were in the same class as the blackhawk and Apache.

Although I believe there are uprated versions of the same engine, for example the General Electric CT7-8A7 on the new Sikorsky CH-148 Cyclone, That could work.

There is no real other option than a GE engine.

Ukraine was supposed to be the Alternative, then this BS war threw a wrench into the whole thing. There is no real option other than a US engine.

The French option is an even worse option than the US given the French Politics and France actively treating Turkey as an enemy state, there used to be a rollsroyce engine but RollsRoyce sold it to Safran.

The other options are Russia(their version of the Ukrainian VK-2500 built by Klimov instead of Motosich) or China(the engine they are using on their Blackhawk clone) both of which come with their own baggage. Its either this or the 2 projects sit in standstill like the Altay until an engine can be ready, which IMO sounds like the wrong move, better off using the US engine, and then having a dropin replacement come in down the road..

 

[Merzifonlu]

Hmm.. I thought the ATAK 2 and 925 were in the same class as the blackhawk and Apache.

Although I believe there are uprated versions of the same engine, for example the General Electric CT7-8A7 on the new Sikorsky CH-148 Cyclone, That could work.

There is no real other option than a GE engine.

I agree with you., There is no real option than a GE engine in the next 10 years.

Apache and S70 is in the 9-ton class. T-925/929 was originally planned to be in the 9-ton class. The number 9 right after T in the "T-925/929" coding indicates this.

However, due to the Ukrainian War, the TSK's requirements changed and the T-929 attack helicopter was increased to 12 tons. Since the T-925 general purpose helicopter will use the same powertrain as the T-929, it has also been increased to the 12-ton class. The power required for a 12 Ton class helicopter is 3000 HP.

Yes, GE has 3000 HP engines. But as I said, a new contract needs to be signed for this.

P.S. Actually, its coding should have changed and it should have been "T-1225/1229", but they didn't change it. I guess they didn't like that it had 4 digits. LOL

 

[LegionnairE]

However, due to the Ukrainian War, the TSK's requirements changed and the T-929 attack helicopter was increased to 12 tons.

I don't understand this. We already knew from our own combat experience about what the threats are, saturation of MANPADS etc. what could we have learned from Ukraine that we didn't already know? And why 12 tons? what's so magical about a 12 ton helicopter? What can it do that a 9-ton helicopter cant?


I think it's a classic case of feature creep that plagued so many projects to this day. From the WWII Panther to Indian Arjun. Same happened with TAI Anka and the same happened with TCG Anadolu, in the end we got results that satisfied nobody.
(the air force kept asking more and more features like SATCOM antenna at the same time complaining that it was too heavy and couldn't reach the desired altitude)



The fact is, we don't need a 9 ton helicopter much less a 12 ton one. Current T-129 model is more than enough for most missions we need it for and that the Army is in no rush to get something new.


Having said all that, a T629 equipped with T-700 engines would be a worthy replacement for our AH-1W super cobra fleet when the time comes.

 

[Merzifonlu]

I don't understand this. We already knew from our own combat experience about what the threats are, saturation of MANPADS etc. what could we have learned from Ukraine that we didn't already know? And why 12 tons? what's so magical about a 12 ton helicopter? What can it do that a 9-ton helicopter cant?

As far as I understand, the Turkish Armed Forces want to use T-929 attack helicopters with a large number of missiles/drones that are also very long-range, from well behind the front, that is, without entering the range of MANPADS. These demands impose a 12-ton helicopter.

Because they have agile T129 and T-629 helicopters that can be deployed to the front line when necessary.

And T-629 will be equipped with certainly TEI TS-1400 engines. Forget GE T700 engines.

 

[LegionnairE]

As far as I understand, the Turkish Armed Forces want to use T-929 attack helicopters with a large number of missiles/drones that are also very long-range, from well behind the front, that is, without entering the range of MANPADS. These demands impose a 12-ton helicopter.

Because they have agile T129 and T-629 helicopters that can be deployed to the front line when necessary.

And T-629 will be equipped with certainly TEI TS-1400 engines. Forget GE T700 engines.

T-129 and T-629 can carry long range missiles too

We are talking about 150 kilometers range for Kuzgun-TJ How much more do we need?

We are in 2024, there are very light missiles that are effective at very long ranges What's this obsession about high tonnage?


even the fucking TB2 that looks like a kite, that files so slowly, doesn't even have retractable landing gear, that only has a 150kg payload capcity, can launch standoff missiles

I would like Çakır missiles to be integrated to Seahawks and regular blackhawks we have, replacing the old penguin missiles of the navy. but that's the other thing, any cargo helicopter can fire these, at those ranges the platform is irrelevant.

AH-64 Apache is a product of the cold war, it was designed to take on the massive soviet armored columns pushing into western Europe. It never had anything to do with carrying long range weapons. It was all about the volume of fire. Nowadays nobody concentrates such forces because there are eyes EVERYWHERE. Even the Americans are thinking about moving from platoon or squad sized formations to sections and individual tanks because mechanized formations are getting decimated in Ukraine. We DON'T need volume of fire. We need less visisbility and precision.

Heat signature of a 12 ton helicopter is enormous and they are much easier, bloated targets for AA fire.

And farthest target Apache ever struck was 32 kilometers away by the way, and that was in 2021 with the latest weapons and datalink

The thing I want to improve about the T129 is this: Survivability. I want a better armored cockpit and I want an ejection mechanism. Russians have it. And I want the T629 to have co-axial rotors and possibly a push propeller. Like Sikorsky S97

And I want T-929 outright cancelled. What the **** are we doing? There's no engine!

 

[Merzifonlu]

What's this obsession about high tonnage?

You want many things. LOL

The Turkish Armed Forces only want one thing from the T-929. And that is this: TSK wants the T-929 to throw up as many missiles/drones as possible at once.

Like the Turkish Armed Forces, I want only one thing: I want to see Navalized Gökbey as soon as possible. Because, thanks to the Gökbey helicopters and rotary-wing cargo drones that will be put into service soon, we will not have an urgent need for rotary-wing platforms on land. But at sea the situation is different. We urgently need navalized rotary wing platforms there. It exists both as a helicopter and as marine drones of all kinds.

 

[LegionnairE]

You want many things. LOL

The Turkish Armed Forces only want one thing from the T-929. And that is this: TSK wants the T-929 to throw up as many missiles/drones as possible at once.

Like the Turkish Armed Forces, I want only one thing: I want to see Navalized Gökbey as soon as possible.

I really don't want many things. I want armored cockpit and ejection system.

Rest is just "nice to haves"

About navalized gökbey, why do you think I said this?

And I want T-929 outright cancelled.

lol