U-214/S-80 vs Hangor

[Pingle]

Hi friends as we all know that very hi-tech AIP equipped Hangor class submarines are set to enter and start operations in our western waters.....

We already have very modern and capable scorpeans but right now they're probably without suitable torpedoes given their caliber.....

Now we are on the verge of finalizing either S-80 or U214 as our next SSK.... which I believe anyone between them will be the most advanced SSKs in Asia.....

But I want to hear from experts will they be really able to challenge Hangors??

 

[harpy1]

For me I hope they go for the s80
At over 3000 tonnes it's very large sub do weapons load endurance should massive.
Six of these will.complement the smaller stealthier scorpene subs really well

S80 will operate further out beyond the aribian sea and upto Malacca straights where as scorpene will.be very much closer to our shores

 

[Pingle]

For me I hope they go for the s80
At over 3000 tonnes it's very large sub do weapons load endurance should massive.
Six of these will.complement the smaller stealthier scorpene subs really well

S80 will operate further out beyond the aribian sea and upto Malacca straights where as scorpene will.be very much closer to our shores

I never expected Spanish to be advanced in submarine technology especially SSKs.... what kind of armaments she would carry and how would technically compare S80 with U boats and Hangor.....

 

[Pingle]

@harpy1
I just saw complete video you posted but I see U214 having more advantages when it comes to speed, underwater duration, more torpedoes and overall firepower even U214 can shot down submarine hunter killer plain then why are you promoting S80 over U214?
Can you shed some light on this because maybe more than this video you maybe knowing other things which we don't know...

 

[Afif]

I never expected Spanish to be advanced in submarine technology especially SSKs.... what kind of armaments she would carry and how would technically compare S80 with U boats and Hangor.....

Spain developed the first fully electric military submarine in the world.

Spanish submarine Peral - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Pingle]

Spain developed the first fully electric military submarine in the world.

Spanish submarine Peral - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You mean to say this is electric powered submarine and does not need Diesel? Sorry for my poor technical knowledge...

 

[Afif]

You mean to say this is electric powered submarine and does not need Diesel? Sorry for my poor technical knowledge...

I mean, battery powered. You can read the details at the link.

 

[harpy1]

@harpy1
I just saw complete video you posted but I see U214 having more advantages when it comes to speed, underwater duration, more torpedoes and overall firepower even U214 can shot down submarine hunter killer plain then why are you promoting S80 over U214?
Can you shed some light on this because maybe more than this video you maybe knowing other things which we don't know...

Spanish S-80 Plus Submarine Viable Candidate to Replace Aging Indian Kilo-Class : Source – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

This may help your answer

The size advantage
The existing relationship because scorpene is french Spanish design
The cost
For me the Germans have too many conditions they have critical of Indian foreign policy in past especially Ukraine war

I go with s80 and I think they will win contract
Btw six is the initial order it's believed India will order second batch six more post 2030

 

[harpy1]

Spain's S-80 Vs. Germany's Type 214 submarine

Spain's S-80 and Germany's Type 214 submarines, equipped with air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems, compete for a crucial naval contract.

www.republicworld.com

Here's another link
TBF the German boat is very modern and powerful but I really like the s80

 

[Pingle]

Spanish S-80 Plus Submarine Viable Candidate to Replace Aging Indian Kilo-Class : Source – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

This may help your answer

The size advantage
The existing relationship because scorpene is french Spanish design
The cost
For me the Germans have too many conditions they have critical of Indian foreign policy in past especially Ukraine war

I go with s80 and I think they will win contract
Btw six is the initial order it's believed India will order second batch six more post 2030

Yes I agree in fact I actually do not want U boats because of the reason Germany cannot be trusted.... they have habit of poking their nose in to the internal matters of customers... My question was purely from the technical point of view.... If France too is involved in S80 then no worries... But still I miss presence of Shortfin Barracuda submarine in this competition....

 

[harpy1]

The cost of barracuda was extortionate

Both the scorpene and s80 technology wise are more than match for both Pakistani and Chinese subs

And we have no other adversaries to worry about in future

Pak subs though Aip are two decades old and I'm sure scorpene and s80 top line European modern subs can tackle Chinese built hangor

 

[Flotilla]

The cost of barracuda was extortionate

Both the scorpene and s80 technology wise are more than match for both Pakistani and Chinese subs

And we have no other adversaries to worry about in future

Pak subs though Aip are two decades old and I'm sure scorpene and s80 top line European modern subs can tackle Chinese built hangor

Also Spain developed a revolutionary AIP based in ethanol which is much safer to storage and much cheaper than other solutions like Hidrogen or even pure Ion lithium batteries (japanese Soryu class) that can be problematic if they contact with salt water

 

[Falcon26]

The Hangor and the S-80 are roughly the same size and both feature 6x 533 mm torpedo tubes. I am not sure about the hull quality but in terms of electronics and weapon systems should match the U-214. Why do I say this? Because the Turkish U-214 feature Turkish electronics and weapon systems (with Turkey insisting that their U-214s should feature Turkish software rather than the original German ones) and Turkey recently executed a mid life upgrade of the PN Agosta 90B submarines in a competitive bid that edged out the DCNS, which is the OEM of the Agosta 90B submarines. Since the Hangors are slated to be PN’s next generation submarines, I would highly doubt if their electronics and weapon systems are inferior to the upgraded Agosta 90Bs.

It’s fair for one to deduce that European hull design and acoustic signature might edge the Chinese but given the extreme secrecy around Chinese technology and the incredible pace of Chinese technical advancement, the Pakistanis might be the only ones to know the true potential as they have access to the Turkish U-214s through exercises and other engagements.

But I am reasonably confident the Europeans excel in propulsion technology and this might be where the real value of the S-80 & U-214s lie. AIP is a major issue for submarines and this is where the Europeans lead the pack.

I am actually surprised to learn the IN doesn’t have active any AIP submarine, something the Pakistanis had for decades.

 

[Pingle]

The Hangor and the S-80 are roughly the same size and both feature 6x 533 mm torpedo tubes. I am not sure about the hull quality but in terms of electronics and weapon systems should match the U-214. Why do I say this? Because the Turkish U-214 feature Turkish electronics and weapon systems (with Turkey insisting that their U-214s should feature Turkish software rather than the original German ones) and Turkey recently executed a mid life upgrade of the PN Agosta 90B submarines in a competitive bid that edged out the DCNS, which is the OEM of the Agosta 90B submarines. Since the Hangors are slated to be PN’s next generation submarines, I would highly doubt if their electronics and weapon systems are inferior to the upgraded Agosta 90Bs.

It’s fair for one to deduce that European hull design and acoustic signature might edge the Chinese but given the extreme secrecy around Chinese technology and the incredible pace of Chinese technical advancement, the Pakistanis might be the only ones to know the true potential as they have access to the Turkish U-214s through exercises and other engagements.

But I am reasonably confident the Europeans excel in propulsion technology and this might be where the real value of the S-80 & U-214s lie. AIP is a major issue for submarines and this is where the Europeans lead the pack.

I am actually surprised to learn the IN doesn’t have active any AIP submarine, something the Pakistanis had for decades.

Yes that is really sad to see that IN till date do not have any AIP submarine... when deal for scorpeans was signed I thought we are getting AIP equipped submarine but not sadly....

 

[DDG-80]

I am actually surprised to learn the IN doesn’t have active any AIP submarine, something the Pakistanis had for decades.

INS Kalvari will receive its indigenous AIP system next year

DRDO’s Fuel Cell-Based AIP Technology will Revolutionize India’s Submarine Capabilities The underwater trials of indigenous fuel based Air Independent Propulsion system is expected to start next year. The trial will be conducted by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). AIP...

defencepk.com

The largest indigenous component designed and developed will be the DRDO PAFC AIP. DRDO’s AIP system relies on the innovative Phosphoric Acid Fuel Cell technology. This process is more rugged, tolerant of fuel impurities, offers longer life and efficiency, and is much safer since it does not require hazardous hydrogen to be stored onboard.

While based on a proven fuel cell technology type, i.e., PAFC, NMRL’s AIP system, nonetheless, incorporates a set of innovations that make it a rather contemporary system. For one, NMRL’s AIP package has an onboard hydrogen generation plant, which produces hydrogen ‘in situ,’ unlike many other AIP configurations where hydrogen for a mission has to be carried onboard.

Moreover, onboard hydrogen production in NMRL’s/DRDO's AIP does not require any kind of combustion. NMRL’s AIP supplies hydrogen ‘in situ’ by reacting hydrogen ‘rich’ sodium borohydride with water to generate hydrogen and sodium metaborate. The advantages of this kind of ‘borohydride hydrolysis’ (BH) to generate hydrogen vis-a-vis other forms of onboard hydrogen generation. NMRL’s/DRDO's BH process generates a considerable amount of hydrogen without entailing the release of any gaseous effluents which add to system noise and can compromise submarine stealth. Moreover, BH plants also have long operational lives.

What NMRL/DRDO has done is further develop basic PAFC-related know-how to come up with indigenous PAFC stacks that are ruggedized and compact enough to be suitable for underwater marine applications with the relevant safety margins. NMRL has registered a number of innovation patents on its way to the development of indigenous PAFC stacks related to the catalysts used, sealants, acid holder matrix, carbon paper, etc.