PTI News, Updates and Discussion

[Distant_Observer]

Well, If IK’s party emerging as the most popular force, securing the highest number of seats and the largest share of the popular vote in an election where the entire state machinery was deployed against him, doesn’t qualify as a "tangibly observable result " of his popularity in anyone's view, then nothing ever will...

And your attempt to downplay IK’s nationwide popularity which transcends ethnic, religious, sectarian, provincial, social, gender, and generational divides as mere “popularity among a particular demographic” is, at best, biased and, at worst, plainly disingenuous...


And now coming to the "not enough outrage" part that you have just added, as previously noted, sire, electoral popularity does not necessarily translate into militant support or revolutionary zeal.... Hence, that line of argument too remains inherently weak.

We are not talking about popularity. We are talking about effectiveness.

PTI and PPP have proven to be incompetent. This is creating the case to abolish the 18th amendment and these provinces will need intervention to rescue them from their regimes.

 

[Meengla]

Interesting perspective. This is a bit of "spit balling" but if Pakistan were to have a free and fair election, who will emerge as the top leader/party? The sword definitely cuts both ways, so if he was overreaching, misusing the government machinery, now its been done to him. That the thing about politics - sooner or later, the shoe is on the other foot and if you haven't done "justice" to the set-up, you end up in jail more or less. In India, there is no military involvement but politicians are vindictive - so its either quid pro quo relationships or just all out war.

Maybe, just maybe Imran's party will win but you can count on him rapidly losing popularity and the Opposition up in arms against him and to suppress them and the critical media, he would need the Establishment's help. So the cycle would continue. I have seen this dance since Zia's death in 1988 and I have noticed how the Pakistan of pre 1990 has gone backward because of the destructive dance.

BTW, it is to be noted that no political party in Pakistan ever even secured 40% of the popular votes. Not even ZAB! Not the 'heavy mandate' Nawaz Sharif of 1990/97 elections, not Imran, not Benazir. So for some to imply that one person is liked by most Pakistanis is absolutely not factual. Pakistan can survive such leaders out of power and Pakistan has been surviving. But in the current 'do or die' situation, only the continuity of policies and focus matters.

 

[samsite84]

Maybe, just maybe Imran's party will win but you can count on him rapidly losing popularity and the Opposition up in arms against him and to suppress them and the critical media, he would need the Establishment's help. So the cycle would continue. I have seen this dance since Zia's death in 1988 and I have noticed how the Pakistan of pre 1990 has gone backward because of the destructive dance.

BTW, it is to be noted that no political party in Pakistan ever even secured 40% of the popular votes. Not even ZAB! Not the 'heavy mandate' Nawaz Sharif of 1990/97 elections, not Imran, not Benazir. So for some to imply that one person is liked by most Pakistanis is absolutely not factual. Pakistan can survive such leaders out of power and Pakistan has been surviving. But in the current 'do or die' situation, only the continuity of policies and focus matters.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. How do you balance the top-down continuity of policies and focus with the bottom-up execution though?

In another thread, it was posted that many incompetent (or at least inexperienced) retired Brigs/colonels etc. are taking over specialized positions.

When the allocation of resources is sub-optimal and there is no appraisal mechanism, even policy continuity will not yield results. The counter argument can be that no matter who comes in (to those positions), he/she will make a marginal difference given context, culture, deep-rooted structures. And that is fair but common people get more cynical, a particular section (army/establishment) get more power with limited checks. As we know, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Its true in India's case as well - good to keep people in power in check lest they start thinking themselves like Khuda - parotciular sub-continent problem where people are used to jee hazoori

We will see over the next 5-6 years I guess. Will be tracking Pakistan's real growth rate (inflation adjusted), geopolitical clout (though subjective) and QOL indicators...

 

[VCheng]

Well, If IK’s party emerging as the most popular force, securing the highest number of seats and the largest share of the popular vote in an election where the entire state machinery was deployed against him, doesn’t qualify as a "tangibly observable result " of his popularity in someone's view, then nothing ever will...

And your attempt to downplay IK’s nationwide popularity which transcends ethnic, religious, sectarian, provincial, social, gender, and generational divides as mere “popularity among a particular demographic” is, at best, biased and, at worst, plainly disingenuous...


And now coming to the "not enough outrage" part that you have just added, as previously noted, sire, electoral popularity does not necessarily translate into militant support or revolutionary zeal.... Hence, that line of argument too remains inherently weak.

Let me put it this way: I have no preferred horse in this race, given that my only motivation here would be for Pakistan to do well by its citizenry and nothing else.

Whether it is IK or someone else simply does not matter at all to me. Hence, my observations are not meant to influence your, or anyone else's views, on who they would prefer to lead the change that so many seek.

Calling my views disingenuous, is in fact, exactly that in reverse, given the above.

"IK’s nationwide popularity which transcends ethnic, religious, sectarian, provincial, social, gender, and generational divides"

Okay. Accepted. Now what happens after that? Nothing? Or just that something will happen, some time in the future? Yawn.

You may think as highly of IK as you wish. I have no reason to change your admiration of him as Pakistan's savior. I do not see him as that at all. That is all I have to say.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Calling my views disingenuous, is in fact, exactly that in reverse, given the above.

"

I never said your views are inherently disingenuous per se... my comment was directed at one specific, factually incorrect assertion you made on a particular point.... and even there, I merely suggested it might stem from bias, nothing more...

And since you say your intentions are genuinely for Pakistan, that’s respectable, despite our differences... Ideas on improving the country are always welcome...

Regards

 

[Meengla]

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. How do you balance the top-down continuity of policies and focus with the bottom-up execution though?

Bangladesh is a good case study for what Hasina's long rule achieved. Not a great country but the country looks better after she left then it was before she assumed power. That's my impression of the country anyway and visuals support that. She was not some miracle lady: She just had the focus for a long time. In case of Pakistan, one PM starts some initiative, the next comes in just 2-4 years and uproots that. Going on for a long time. Enough.

In another thread, it was posted that many incompetent (or at least inexperienced) retired Brigs/colonels etc. are taking over specialized positions.

It is one more myth about the 'Establishment' of Pakistan: They are NOT some foreign entity. They come from all walks of Pakistan and have many ethnic groups represented. They eat the same food as some farmer or trader does. Same schooling. Some indoctrination. So what if they end up in some businesses?? They are also Pakistanis who have found a niche like the construction groups or other groups.

When the allocation of resources is sub-optimal and there is no appraisal mechanism, even policy continuity will not yield results. The counter argument can be that no matter who comes in (to those positions), he/she will make a marginal difference given context, culture, deep-rooted structures. And that is fair but common people get more cynical, a particular section (army/establishment) get more power with limited checks. As we know, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Policy continuations at least attempt to stop the cycle of destruction Pakistan has been facing since Zia's death in 1988.

Its true in India's case as well - good to keep people in power in check lest they start thinking themselves like Khuda - parotciular sub-continent problem where people are used to jee hazoori

Corruption is endemic in India too but Indians have the focus for decades, barring a few years in late 80s/early 90s.

We will see over the next 5-6 years I guess. Will be tracking Pakistan's real growth rate (inflation adjusted), geopolitical clout (though subjective) and QOL indicators...

As I keep saying, I see Pakistan's star is rising and I see, probably for the very first time, a large part of the political class in an alignment with the military in this 'do or die situation'. Pakistan was close to an actual fiscal bankruptcy just 3-4 years ago, with horrible consequences for Pakistan given its internal fissures and external threats. That has led to the two major provinces of Pakistan (Sindh and Punjab) to join the military and try to save Pakistan itself, politics be damned.

 

[VCheng]

And since you say your intentions are genuinely for Pakistan, that’s respectable, despite our differences... Ideas on improving the country are always welcome...

Thank you for saying that. Quite often our inability to respect differences of opinion, even despite common goals, becomes a distraction from the crux of the important matters at hand.

I would say yet again that the military is Pakistan's biggest curse, but I also recognize that it is the only remaining cohesive entity left standing in the country, by virtue of all the conscious actions, choices and decisions taken over the last half century.

How one brings about effective change from the situation above is the real conundrum. I do not think any one leader or demagogue, no matter how popular, is capable of doing that for the foreseeable future. Change must come from a far wider section of society at all levels if it is to succeed.

And that, Sir, will take a good long while yet. Decades more, at least, is my current assessment. Maybe events will help me change my estimate. I can but only observe.

 

[Respect4Respect]

The reason of institutions not respecting their prescribed limits is well-known, to be sure. But knowing that does not help the genie get back into the bottle. That is the hold up. As I said, getting to there from here will not happen unless there are actual actions to back up all the noble verbiage.

Thus far, there are none

The genie will return to the barracks if public starts to resist, and that resistance has finally begun. When the army ousted Imran Khan people didn’t celebrate or distribute sweets, instead they protested marking a shift in public response to military interferences.

For the first time regions like Balochistan, KPK, Sindh, Kashmir and parts of Punjab have stopped blaming politicians and identified GHQ as the real source of their suffering. When every discontented group points to the same institution is not a coincidence, it means GHQ is the common trigger. If it isn't then why aren’t other state institutions like PCB or PIA blamed?

Whether you like it or not, Imran Khan is the one who will decide where this country goes because he’s the only one paying the price for that right. Nawaz Sharif, Maulana Fazal and the rest surrendered their ideologies to him when things got hard. They chose comfort and their children’s future while IK chose hardship at an age most people retire. Whether they let him walk out alive is another question but those who still believe know his fate isn’t theirs to decide.

 

[VCheng]

The genie will return to the barracks if public starts to resist, and that resistance has finally begun.

Great. I will see what results accrue from this resistance that has begun, if indeed it has.

 

[VCheng]

Whether you like it or not, Imran Khan is the one who will decide where this country goes

As I said above, it simply does not matter to me who leads this change. If it is indeed IK as you claim, more power to him too. I will wait to see actual results, but that is just me, of course.

 

[Respect4Respect]

PTI and PPP have proven to be incompetent.

Oh the irony, your so called leader Nawaz Sharif lost to Yasmin Rashid in his own backyard. After four decades of power, endless resources and establishment support he couldn’t hold the fort and you dare call others incompetent?

 

[Respect4Respect]

Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

The person you're interacting with is the definition of hypocrisy. He enjoys a comfortable life in the U.S, exercises all his rights and benefits from a system that protects him but when it comes to Pakistan, he openly supports oppression, human rights violations and dictatorship.

In the U.S., he gets swift justice, sends his kids to school, and can afford basic necessities like water, electricity, heating, healthcare and food. That’s not the reality for millions in Pakistan. Families are forced to sell household items just to pay electricity bills. There have been heartbreaking cases of parents taking their own lives because they couldn’t feed their children. Teenagers risk everything to reach Europe hoping to secure a future for their families. And if you end up on the wrong side of someone rich or powerful you and your family will be destroyed, don’t expect justice from the courts. As for hospitals you already know how things are in a third world countries.

So don’t take people like him seriously. If he thinks Pakistan is so perfect then he should bring his family and live it.

 

[M. Sarmad]

You may think as highly of IK as you wish. I have no reason to change your admiration of him as Pakistan's savior. I do not see him as that at all. That is all I have to say.

No, sir, I am no great admirer of IK, save for where he has stood valiantly against tyranny and the entrenched status quo..... His policies and governance have been imperfect. Yet, in a democracy, the will of the majority must prevail..... I support him not as a saviour or Messiah, but as the legitimately elected leader illegally detained by the Army and denied the right to lead his country.... Any leader in his position, under similar circumstances, merits the same support.... But, in my opinion, what truly sets him apart is that no other leader in Pakistan’s history has dared to sacrifice personal gain for the nation’s greater good.....

 

[VCheng]

No, sir, I am no great admirer of IK, save for where he has stood valiantly against tyranny and the entrenched status quo..... His policies and governance have been imperfect. Yet, in a democracy, the will of the majority must prevail..... I support him not as a saviour or Messiah, but as the legitimately elected leader illegally detained by the Army... and any leader in his position, under similar circumstances, merits the same support.... But, in my opinion, what truly sets him apart is that no other leader in Pakistan’s history has dared to sacrifice personal gain for the nation’s greater good.....

I respect your views as clarified above, and I can join you in wishing IK the best of luck in his goals for himself - as well as for Pakistan.

The present system in Pakistan, regardless of whether one supports it or not, is clearly failing its people, and quite miserably at that. It must be reformed and changed, undoubtedly, and the sooner the better.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@Meengla sb

To me, Pakistan of 2023-25 looks like IND of 1991-93, apparently stagnating but in reality reforms were creating the base for a take-off (something not in the scale, scope or pace of China for reasons that cannot be covered in this thread). What helped India was stability in the next 25 years (barring the 1996-98 interlude) as @Respect4Respect points out. If the Fauj is sensible enough to let the civvies breathe and have at least 5 years innings, no reason why Pak can't achieve a 5-6% growth at least for the next 25 years.

Regards