Hangor Class Submarine | Updates & Discussion

[Toxic]

If any country needs nuclear submarine. They must have their own design. Its not easy to procure or afford let alone be sold with old tech.

Pakistan shipyard apart from aircraft carrier can make any ship that was statement of Naval chief at least decade ago.

Make ur own nuclear submarine whether it takes 10 years more or not.

Paise nahi hai boss

 

[Michael]

You’re right that Chinese military products seem to have a 20 year development cycle if one does a retrospective analysis of when projects began. But, considering this project has been talked about and the PLAN has experience with the reactors on the Type 093B, as well as the reactors underdevelopment for the Type 095, it likely there is a small reactor currently at an advanced stage of development.

The Type 09X series nuclear submarines have been under development for many years and have undergone multiple iterations. However, they all belong to the medium-to-large strategic nuclear submarine category. Previous development efforts by China primarily focused on other aspects of submarine construction technology, such as large pressure hull technology, noise reduction technology, and detection technology. While their nuclear propulsion systems have seen some upgrades, the fundamental changes have been minor.

According to relevant Chinese technical papers, the Type 041 submarine employs a new generation of small nuclear reactor technology. This is completely different from the nuclear reactor technology of the Type 09X series submarines, representing a generational leap. This will require a considerable amount of time to verify its reliability.

 

[Psyko70]

Paise nahi hai boss

Paisa tou hai bas lagana nai. Bahar se mehengi milegi. Just like ghar ka khana is better make indigenous.

 

[Ibbi32]

That's impossible. It will take at least 10-20 years.

The Type 041 submarine is China's first small nuclear-powered submarine. Its small nuclear power plant requires a long period of testing (military maturity verification is far more rigorous than that of civilian products).

China itself has not yet officially commissioned this type of submarine. It is still in the testing phase.

Only after it has been in service with the PLA Navy for a considerable period and has undergone maturity verification can it be exported. ------ Submarines are inherently high-risk weapon systems, and nuclear submarines have an even higher risk index. The Pakistani Navy would not want to become a testing ground.

After that, it will require lengthy procurement negotiations and customized production.

I believe that if the Pakistani Navy is truly interested in purchasing it, it will take approximately 15-20 years before it actually enters the Pakistani Navy's arsenal.
But... given Pakistan's current economic situation and development trend, it is unlikely that it will have enough funds to own this submarine.

China has previously been shown to support Pakistan by giving assets of strategic importance. For example in 1989 when soviets were leasing their own nuclear submarine to india china offered 1 of its much smaller number of nuclear submarines in a type 091 class for lease.

 

[Michael]

China has previously been shown to support Pakistan by giving assets of strategic importance. For example in 1989 when soviets were leasing their own nuclear submarine to india china offered 1 of its much smaller number of nuclear submarines in a type 091 class for lease.

Don't discuss these fabricated rumors. It's pointless.

 

[Toxic]

Don't discuss these fabricated rumors. It's pointless.

It's not fabricated.

 

[SABRE]

I believe the Type U-214 German Boats deal was accepted by the German Government and the deal was 99% completed? The U-boat 214 was best you can buy then. It all fell through?

Whether the deal was done or not depends on how one interprets the term "deal." I think 'negotiations' were almost completed but the 'deal' couldn't go through. @Quwa would probably know better, but if am recalling it correctly, German parliament delayed approving the transfer of certain sensitive techs - including AIP and engines - which would be deal breaker. Political landscape also changed in Pakistan in the meanwhile. One submariner I knew long ago said that they had very cleverly pitched only the Type-214 to the government to avoid the lengthy bureaucratic routines and parochial interests that come with evaluation process involving two or more assets. However, with the delays the negotiations/deal finalisation rolled over to the newly elected government. I suppose PN's hustling couldn't hustle the hustler at the top of the new government. The top hustler froze the negotiations and - if memory serves me right - advised PN to consider more Agosta-90Bs. But by 2009 (i think) the government and PN had moved on to the Chinese submarines.

 

[kimjongun]

Turkey's military surely knows what is a hypersonic ballistic missile better than you or me.. ..

ITS FREAKIN COMMON SENSE MAN...The hypersonic claim is for PR...
1)It is not a hyperonci cruise missile powered by a ramjet.
2)It is not a HGV that can manuver at hypersonic speeds in upper atmoshphere
3)It is does not have a MARV that can maneuver at termianal phase
Its just a simple ballistic missile.
.from what i have heard it doesnt even have a QUASI trajectory(in this point i can be wrong)

 

[FuturePAF]

The Type 09X series nuclear submarines have been under development for many years and have undergone multiple iterations. However, they all belong to the medium-to-large strategic nuclear submarine category. Previous development efforts by China primarily focused on other aspects of submarine construction technology, such as large pressure hull technology, noise reduction technology, and detection technology. While their nuclear propulsion systems have seen some upgrades, the fundamental changes have been minor.

According to relevant Chinese technical papers, the Type 041 submarine employs a new generation of small nuclear reactor technology. This is completely different from the nuclear reactor technology of the Type 09X series submarines, representing a generational leap. This will require a considerable amount of time to verify its reliability.

Fair enough. As you said, 15-20 years from now; so late 2030s till early 2040s falls in line with what we expect as well.

Btw, some would speculate that the Type 041 is similar in design concept to the Russian Projectile 20120 Sarov:

Russian submarine Sarov - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Quwa]

Whether the deal was done or not depends on how one interprets the term "deal." I think 'negotiations' were almost completed but the 'deal' couldn't go through. @Quwa would probably know better, but if am recalling it correctly, German parliament delayed approving the transfer of certain sensitive techs - including AIP and engines - which would be deal breaker. Political landscape also changed in Pakistan in the meanwhile. One submariner I knew long ago said that they had very cleverly pitched only the Type-214 to the government to avoid the lengthy bureaucratic routines and parochial interests that come with evaluation process involving two or more assets. However, with the delays the negotiations/deal finalisation rolled over to the newly elected government. I suppose PN's hustling couldn't hustle the hustler at the top of the new government. The top hustler froze the negotiations and - if memory serves me right - advised PN to consider more Agosta-90Bs. But by 2009 (i think) the government and PN had moved on to the Chinese submarines.

Germany was also unsure of extending a loan to the PN for buying the submarines, which held things up as well. Moreover, the PN adjusted its requirements to require more submarines, so costing was an issue -- hence interest in the Chinese submarines (originally 6 and then revised to 8).

That said, the PN's original submarine program could reopen some doors in odd ways. Who knows, maybe some aspects of the Type 214 work could, eventually, make their way to the PN. Worth recalling that when it was bidding for the PN's original submarine project, STM proposed the xTS1700 design, which drew on the Turks' experience with absorbing Type 214 tech.

 

[Michael]

Fair enough. As you said, 15-20 years from now; so late 2030s till early 2040s falls in line with what we expect as well.

If Pakistan is only considering its second-strike nuclear capability when purchasing Chinese nuclear submarines, my personal opinion is:

Instead of pursuing nuclear submarines, Pakistan should consider purchasing Type 32 conventional submarines from China.

The Type 32 conventional submarine is currently the world's largest conventionally powered submarine. It has a submerged displacement of 6,628 tons, a length of 92.6 meters, and a beam of 10 meters. The PLA Navy currently only has one Type 32 submarine for experimental and testing purposes. It is primarily used for testing detectors and sensors, and submarine-launched intercontinental ballistic missiles (SLBMs).

Its most distinctive feature is its two massive SLBM launch bays. These bays can be divided into compartments to accommodate multiple cruise missiles or smaller ballistic missiles.

If Pakistan purchases a Type 32 conventional submarine, it can be customized into a combat submarine. Its massive platform offers formidable modification capabilities. Furthermore, as a conventionally powered submarine, it will not cause any diplomatic disputes or protests from third countries. Nuclear submarines, on the other hand, are prone to diplomatic conflicts. However, its actual combat effectiveness is no less than that of a nuclear submarine.

Whether PN will modify the "Shaheen" series ballistic missiles into submarine-launched ballistic missiles and install them in the Type 32 conventional submarines after purchasing them is entirely up to PN.

Note: When I say I'm buying Type 32 submarines, I don't mean the original PLA Navy version, but a PN customized version based on the Type 32 submarine. The manufacturing and maintenance costs of conventionally powered submarines are far lower than those of nuclear-powered submarines. This is in line with Pakistan's current economic capabilities.

 

[FuturePAF]

If Pakistan is only considering its second-strike nuclear capability when purchasing Chinese nuclear submarines, my personal opinion is:

Instead of pursuing nuclear submarines, Pakistan should consider purchasing Type 32 conventional submarines from China.

The Type 32 conventional submarine is currently the world's largest conventionally powered submarine. It has a submerged displacement of 6,628 tons, a length of 92.6 meters, and a beam of 10 meters. The PLA Navy currently only has one Type 32 submarine for experimental and testing purposes. It is primarily used for testing detectors and sensors, and submarine-launched intercontinental ballistic missiles (SLBMs).

Its most distinctive feature is its two massive SLBM launch bays. These bays can be divided into compartments to accommodate multiple cruise missiles or smaller ballistic missiles.

If Pakistan purchases a Type 32 conventional submarine, it can be customized into a combat submarine. Its massive platform offers formidable modification capabilities. Furthermore, as a conventionally powered submarine, it will not cause any diplomatic disputes or protests from third countries. Nuclear submarines, on the other hand, are prone to diplomatic conflicts. However, its actual combat effectiveness is no less than that of a nuclear submarine.

Whether PN will modify the "Shaheen" series ballistic missiles into submarine-launched ballistic missiles and install them in the Type 32 conventional submarines after purchasing them is entirely up to PN.

Note: When I say I'm buying Type 32 submarines, I don't mean the original PLA Navy version, but a PN customized version based on the Type 32 submarine. The manufacturing and maintenance costs of conventionally powered submarines are far lower than those of nuclear-powered submarines. This is in line with Pakistan's current economic capabilities.

The issue with that submarine, is due to its large displacement and limited power on conventional Or even AIP propulsion is it won’t have the speed to evade subs hunting it, and won’t have the means to go further out at speed.

But with nuclear power, it can hide in a larger area, and sprint away if it is likely to be detected.

In the mean time, VLS addition to the hangor can add second strike capabilities for cruise missiles to be fired from Pakistan’s EEZ. IMHO, I think the last three hangor class subs should have a dozen VLS tubes (of the standard 0.85 m diameter of the Chinese UVLS) to be able to fire missiles like the YJ-17 or YJ-20 as well as hypersonic cruise missiles like the YJ-19, and stealthy cruise missiles like the AKF98A.

 

[Tank131]

Whether the deal was done or not depends on how one interprets the term "deal." I think 'negotiations' were almost completed but the 'deal' couldn't go through. @Quwa would probably know better, but if am recalling it correctly, German parliament delayed approving the transfer of certain sensitive techs - including AIP and engines - which would be deal breaker. Political landscape also changed in Pakistan in the meanwhile. One submariner I knew long ago said that they had very cleverly pitched only the Type-214 to the government to avoid the lengthy bureaucratic routines and parochial interests that come with evaluation process involving two or more assets. However, with the delays the negotiations/deal finalisation rolled over to the newly elected government. I suppose PN's hustling couldn't hustle the hustler at the top of the new government. The top hustler froze the negotiations and - if memory serves me right - advised PN to consider more Agosta-90Bs. But by 2009 (i think) the government and PN had moved on to the Chinese submarines.

Fell through due to "financial issues" You do realize that Pakistan paid more for these Chinese subs then what they would have been paying for those U-214s?

Germany was also unsure of extending a loan to the PN for buying the submarines, which held things up as well. Moreover, the PN adjusted its requirements to require more submarines, so costing was an issue -- hence interest in the Chinese submarines (originally 6 and then revised to 8).

That said, the PN's original submarine program could reopen some doors in odd ways. Who knows, maybe some aspects of the Type 214 work could, eventually, make their way to the PN. Worth recalling that when it was bidding for the PN's original submarine project, STM proposed the xTS1700 design, which drew on the Turks' experience with absorbing Type 214 tech.

If memory serves the sale was appeoved provisionally by the German govt but it was held up pending elections in 2005. Basically Merkle needed to win for the deal to go through, and she did. If memory serves me, they did have reservations about the deal (specifically addition of AIP and ToT) and but after elections (merkle won) deal was approved with $1billion credit line but in 2008/2009 the PN added additional considerations and the financial situation in Pakistan continued to deteriorate and in fact the need of PN grew from 2-3 subs as the doctrine for PN specifically the submarine arm changed. I recall when the 039C deal was made, everyone was shocked and in disbelief at the terms of the deal (8 subs).

@Toxic bro of course PN paid more and could pay more for the chinese subs. As it is the german sub deal was for 2 with option for 3rd. Chinese deal was for 8 subs. So of course it would cost more than the german deal. What would you suppose the deal would have cost for 8 U-214? Id wager far more than the Hangors. Additionally dont forget that China has often sold items to Pakistan on soft loans.

The PN could not afford the U214s as Germany only extended $1 billion line of credit $1.4bllion deal for 2+1 subs and then the political climate in Pakistan and its deteriorating relationship with NATO led to deal being scrapped by 2009/2010.

@Quwa can check the dates better than i

 

[Faani83]

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[Michael]

The issue with that submarine, is due to its large displacement and limited power on conventional Or even AIP propulsion is it won’t have the speed to evade subs hunting it, and won’t have the means to go further out at speed.
But with nuclear power, it can hide in a larger area, and sprint away if it is likely to be detected.
In the mean time, VLS addition to the hangor can add second strike capabilities for cruise missiles to be fired from Pakistan’s EEZ.

1. Nuclear submarines are too sensitive. China is currently strongly criticizing the US for helping Australia build nuclear submarines. If China were to provide nuclear submarines to Pakistan, it would clearly be inconsistent with China's national policy. This possibility is virtually nonexistent, at least for a long time to come.

2. The Type 32 conventional submarine is not suitable for use as an attack submarine. However, if it is only used as a second-strike platform, the Type 32 conventional submarine is a reasonable choice. China's current Type 32 conventional submarine was built more than a decade ago for experimental purposes. Its platform is essentially an enlarged version of the Type 039 submarine. If new construction were to begin now, it would certainly incorporate more of China's latest technological advancements from the past decade, such as propulsion systems and VLS.

My view is: Based on the Type 32 submarine platform, customize it according to Pakistan's actual needs, rather than directly purchasing Type 32 submarines. Alternatively, based on the Type 095 nuclear-powered submarine platform, convert it to a conventional-powered submarine.

You can think of it as a completely new submarine custom-made for Pakistan.

Of course, since the PLAN itself doesn't have this need (for ultra-large displacement conventional submarines) to share the related R&D and technology costs, if Pakistan is interested, it will either need to pay substantial additional R&D costs for the modification, or it will need to purchase in sufficient quantities.

The focus is on the submarine platform itself, not a single technical feature.

However, this is merely my personal opinion. It's for entertainment purposes only and shouldn't be taken seriously.

IMHO, I think the last three hangor class subs should have a dozen VLS tubes (of the standard 0.85 m diameter of the Chinese UVLS) to be able to fire missiles like the YJ-17 or YJ-20 as well as hypersonic cruise missiles like the YJ-19, and stealthy cruise missiles like the AKF98A.

1. Hangor-class submarines do not have a VLS. They use torpedo tubes (533mm) to launch missiles or torpedoes. There is no space for a VLS.

2. China's surface warships currently primarily use two types of VLS: the HT-1 (850mm) and the AKJ-16 (650mm).

3. Submarine-based VLSs are mainly equipped on strategic ballistic missile nuclear submarines. Official detailed parameters have not been released, but their dimensions are estimated to be very large (no less than 1500mm). They are used to launch submarine-launched ICBMs. Attack submarines use VLSs smaller than this, but no data is currently available. It is generally believed that their size is larger than the HT-1.