AMCA vs KAAN vs KF-21 India Turkey & Korea’s Fighter Jets Battle For Air Supremacy—Who Leads The Pack? OP-ED

[Deino]

You are only liar here
in 2019-2020 , You said that KAAN is ultra nationalist propaganda and you are still calling every post as a propaganda

Other Chinese users called KAAN a plastic mock up and they said KAAN can not fly before 2040

again You calling TF-35.000 project as propaganda and Chinese users says TF-35.000 can not fly before 2040

You go crazy when you see Türkiye's amazing defense industry

except You and Chinese users , nobody attacking Turkish Defense Industry here

No I did not you bloody liar!

Yes I was most critical towards Kaan - and in fact still I am - since initially it wasn't planned to fly Pt-00, which was indeed a surprise and I more than one openly admitted I was wrong!

What I said - and that's what I'm still convinced - that a fully indigenous Kaan with the TF35000 in service won't fly until 2030 if ever!

2040 was never said! So again you are lying, or show where this was posted!

My point and the one presented by other critics was always and is still, that flying a demonstrator - aka more or less an empty shell for prorpaganda purpose to please Sultan Erdogan is one thing, but to fly a serial production 5th generation fighter powered by an indigenous engine is something totally different. And in fact so far NOTHING presented by your or even reliable official sources gives me confidence that I am wrong.

Yes, you will fly Kaan Pt.01 next year powered by F110 but a dated F110 for your monster-fighter is just an interim since adequate: The F110 is surely a fine engine, but for a fighter like Kaan it is not a top-modern engine and is still much too weak! Also, yes, Kaan will maybe fly with a demonstrator TF35000 but operational and in serial production before 2030 is IMPOSSIBLE!! Mark my words.

Period!

But as it seems, and as we all know you here since years: You are not interested in a honest factual discussion. You are only spreading insults & offence against anyone who has a different and especially critical opinion besides your endless rants of propaganda who graet Turkey is.

And yes, Turkey is a great country but even Turkey must obey the lows of Physics & Engineering and simply cannot develop such a super-engine in less time than any other established country on that segment.

But again, it's useless to discuss with you ... come back in 2030 when Kaan is still not operational with the TF35000 and we will accept your humble apology!

With the amount of reports on this thread, I would appreciate if the exchange of views is done in a decent manner, I understand our Chinese brothers and Turkish brothers both are proud of their achievements (and they should be) but at the end of the day this is not a "rub it on your face" discussion, this is supposed to discuss "achievements"

just my 2 cents!

Thanks, but if you check who is the one who is constantly insulting since he rates any argument against his propaganda-view an insult and lying all around without giving proof even against any arguments and explanation and who is trying desperately to explain and argue, I think it is more than clear, who is the trouble-maker?!

 

[Michael]

Fortunately, we won't have to wait long to see the answer to this. Right?

By the way, not all Turkish members of the forum see opposing arguments as insults. @MMM-E is in a different league.

I'm pleased to see that a Turkish member is willing to seriously discuss this issue. (MMM-E is certainly an exception.)

Modern turbofan engines are often referred to as the crown jewel of industry. This carries profound implications.

It is essentially a complete collection of modern industries. Only when a country reaches the world's leading level in all industrial sectors can it achieve 100% domestic production of modern turbofan engines. Note that we are talking about manufacturing capability, not design capability. Even 100% domestic copying of engines from other countries requires this capability.

In any country, military technology is highly classified. Many countries, for the sake of military threat, exaggerate or conceal their true military technological strength. We are unlikely to know definitively whether a country truly possesses certain capabilities. However, we can judge the authenticity through many publicly disclosed industrial capabilities.

Let me give an example:
Hypersonic missiles. (Many countries claim to possess hypersonic missiles.)
The basic conditions for developing hypersonic aircraft are that you need to have a hypersonic wind tunnel; or you need to obtain relevant data through numerous launch tests and technological iterations. If neither of these conditions is met, and you claim to have independently developed a hypersonic missile, then you are definitely lying. If you manufacture hypersonic missiles by obtaining technological support from other countries, that's manufacturing capability, not research and development capability.

The manufacture of modern turbofan engines integrates the pinnacle of technology across all industrial sectors. Once you can independently manufacture a modern turbofan engine 100%, it means you are among the world's leading nations in all industrial categories. I think if you are rational enough, you should understand what this means.

Once you've invested heavily in and succeeded in developing a specific technology within a particular field, the demand for turbofan engines is clearly insufficient to meet the associated investment needs. You need to further expand its industrial capacity.

For its manned space program, China developed basalt fiber cloth (the national flag displayed by China in space is made from this material). Subsequently, this industry rapidly achieved large-scale industrialization in China. Now, it is widely used in the civilian sector and continues to evolve. We use it in the construction industry, composite materials industry, precision industry, and even today we can buy clothing made of basalt fiber on Chinese e-commerce platforms.

As for the specific sub-technologies and materials technologies involved in turbofan engines, I won't go into detail here. You can find the answers by consulting relevant resources.

However, due to different social environments and perceptions, we have completely different understandings of "homemade."

 

[MMM-E]

Note that we are talking about manufacturing capability, not design capability. Even 100% domestic copying of engines from other countries requires this capability.

Chinese Users should learn what about TEI then come to discuss

TEI has developed everything

1 -- Single crystal blade casting

2 -- blisks and spools manufacturing technologies

3 -- for the first time in the world, TEI produced an engine combustion chamber using the additive manufacturing method

4 -- There are only a few Countries in the world that can process aircraft engine turbine blades with the additive manufacturing Nickel Superalloy method and Turkiye is one of them

5-- Materials and progress technologies

-- high temperature applications
-- super alloys
-- titanium casting and nickel superalloy casting technologies
-- coating technologies
-- ceramics and porous structures


---------------

TEI had to produce even the first Pure Nickel and the first Pure Cobalt in Turkiye
because they were also coming from abroad. while producing Engines

and over 1.500 parts for 50 different types of military and commercial engine programs at its current position.


Official source from TEI

https://www.tei.com.tr/en/activity-areas/parts-and-module-manufacturing

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Chinese users are insulting Turkiye and lying
Who are you to say the TF-35.000 Engine can not before 2040-2050 ?

When TEİ General Manager AKSIT says : “We will fly KAAN with a domestically produced engine in 2029–2030.”

Source

Türkiye accelerates domestic engine development with TF6000, TF10000 - Türkiye Today

Mahmut Faruk Aksit, the General Manager of Turkish Aerospace Industries Engine Industries (TEI), provided key updates on Türkiye’s progress in developing indigenous engine technology.

www.turkiyetoday.com

I always gave source and evidance .. this troll team called even official source as propaganda

So you will develop supersonic engines for 5th gen jets in merely in few years? Where superpowers like USA/Russia/China takes decades to develop suitable engines for 5th gen jets and they have lot of experience to designing and developing turbofan Engines of decades

And Turkiye has no experience to develop super engines for KAAN in such short period of time and this is your first time to develop high thrust class engines, isn't unlogical and ridiculous that Turkiye will have such engines in such a short period of time

 

[MMM-E]

So you will develop supersonic engines for 5th gen jets in merely in few years? Where superpowers like USA/Russia/China takes decades to develop suitable engines for 5th gen jets and they have lot of experience to designing and developing turbofan Engines of decades

Who said in a few years ?
Turkiye officialy has started developing Engine for KAAN in 2018


in 2029-2030 for the first flight
and integration-mass production by 2032-2035 period

2018-2035 : max 17 years


-----------------------

Prof .Dr Mahmut Faruk Aksit, General Manager of TEI

"The target is for KAAN to fly with a local engine by 2029-2030," Aksit explained. "The Eurojet engine took 17 years to develop. If we took 17 years, we would face strong criticism," he said.

"We don’t have the luxury of that much time. Our engineers are working within three constraints: budget, time, and weight. They must meet all of these challenges. Given unlimited time, even the least experienced person could succeed, but we don’t have that luxury," he added.

Türkiye accelerates domestic engine development with TF6000, TF10000 - Türkiye Today

Mahmut Faruk Aksit, the General Manager of Turkish Aerospace Industries Engine Industries (TEI), provided key updates on Türkiye’s progress in developing indigenous engine technology.

www.turkiyetoday.com

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Who said in a few years ?
Turkiye officialy has started developing Engine for KAAN in 2018
View attachment 158357

in 2029-2030 for the first flight
and integration-mass production by 2032-2035 period

2018-2035 : max 17 years


-----------------------

Prof .Dr Mahmut Faruk Aksit, General Manager of TEI

"The target is for KAAN to fly with a local engine by 2029-2030," Aksit explained. "The Eurojet engine took 17 years to develop. If we took 17 years, we would face strong criticism," he said.

"We don’t have the luxury of that much time. Our engineers are working within three constraints: budget, time, and weight. They must meet all of these challenges. Given unlimited time, even the least experienced person could succeed, but we don’t have that luxury," he added.

Türkiye accelerates domestic engine development with TF6000, TF10000 - Türkiye Today

Mahmut Faruk Aksit, the General Manager of Turkish Aerospace Industries Engine Industries (TEI), provided key updates on Türkiye’s progress in developing indigenous engine technology.

www.turkiyetoday.com

Still much shorter time period compared to other super engines like f119/AL-51F1 and WS-15

And did your company starts testing it on the ground/bench testing? Before you will fly it on testbed in 2030?

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Even the ignorant CHP members among us don't know the point Türkiye has reached who called KAAN a Radiator

View attachment 158363

in a short time , Building and flying this type of cutting-edge Aircraft, is not something every Country can do

1 -- India can not produce even TEJAS MK-2

2 -- Russian SU-57 can not match with the KAAN in stealth capabilities and production quality

3 -- S.Korea developed KF-21 but almost full of American-Israeli-European technologies

KAAN use only American GE F-110 Engine and British MARTIN-BAKER ejection seat
TEI and TAI develops engine and ejection seat to make the KAAN full of indigenous

Talk when then your engine and ejection seats will complete lol

 

[MMM-E]

Still much shorter time period compared to other super engines like f119/AL-51F1 and WS-15

Because we have no time to wait for years
The US embargo is causing the Turkish Air Force to lose significant strength in the region.

American - European engineers worked 8 hours in a day
Our engineers worked for 16 hours . even they did not go to their homes for weeks when they developed KAAN

We also work on engine development with the same principle.

 

[MMM-E]

Talk when then your engine and ejection seats will complete lol

All of You said same thing about the KAAN too
And I was right about KAAN

in 2029 , everybody will see ... dont worry
but you have no shame ...

 

[MMM-E]

Hey Fatman17 dont take side for Chinese users and know your place
dont delete my posts ... You are not WAZ or MUSINGS or MR.X

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Because we have no time to wait for years
The US embargo is causing the Turkish Air Force to lose significant strength in the region.

American - European engineers worked 8 hours in a day
Our engineers worked for 16 hours . even they did not go to their homes for weeks when they developed KAAN

We also work on engine development with the same principle.

So you're compromising standard safety procedures for building/developing engine for KAAN to develop it early as possible I'm afraid to say that if you tests it that early on KAAN it might be possible that you will have incident/accident with this engine on KAAN

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

All of You said same thing about the KAAN too
And I was right about KAAN

in 2029 , everybody will see ... dont worry
but you have no shame ...

It's not about shame its about logic and common sense that you won't have

Not on KAAN but on the testbed

 

[MMM-E]

It's not about shame its about logic and common sense that you won't have

Not on KAAN but on the testbed

Who said on the testbed ?
CEO of TEI says on KAAN in 2029-2030 ...... and I gave you a source

No , I forgot you called official source as propaganda

No need to discuss with same team who has a big problem with Turkiye
the time will show who is right

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Who said on the testbed ?
CEO of TEI says on KAAN in 2029-2030 ...... and I gave you a source

No , I forgot you called official source as propaganda

No need to discuss with same team who has a big problem with Turkiye
the time will show who is right

So you're compromising safety of the pilot and airframe of the jet for testing on KAAN that early and skipping international standard for developing turbofan ( bench/ground testing then testbed testing) for perfecting/tweaking the engine

I'm afraid to say installing un-mature and unfinished engine on its intended platform could bring something really really bad to KAAN (accident/incident)

 

[Musings]

Hey Fatman17 dont take side for Chinese users and know your place
dont delete my posts ... You are not WAZ or MUSINGS or MR.X

Stop pushing your luck. He is a respected member and mod that follows rules to the later. Debate with respect especially with ALL mods or i may have to remove you from the thread….