PTI News, Updates and Discussion

[Watandar]

But all "VERDICTS" have same legal value and that is not a rule made in a factory in Faisalabad

Depends on each case. Some verdicts are overturned legally, others remain on the books despite the judges who gave that verdict later saying it was under threat and pressure.

 

[Watandar]

It is the SAME court system.

It would be logical to either trust it, or NOT.

To pick and choose would be utterly HYPOCRITICAL.

This same court system later admits it was responsible for judicial murder of a Prime Minister and regrets it provided cover to lawbreakers and dictators.

Therefore you look at each case individually.

 

[Meengla]

The courts in Pakistan are corrupt and subservient to the Establishment. Once in a blue moon a judge shows defiance and decides a case on its merits and the law. Therefore your demand to take all court cases at face value is disingenuous.
This is a judiciary that hanged a Prime Minister and later admitted it was judicial murder.

Right. But then why cry about the Superior Judiciary's autocratic powers being curtailed? You know the Suo Motos alone by Justice Iftikhar caused a lot of damage to Pakistan's economy and stability. Yes, the same Judge which Imran supported during the Lawyer's Movement.
I am surprised after you had conceded a few days ago that even your favorite Imran had not followed the Law--I think it was about the NCM vote--you still try to support the guy. And, yes, we should hold him to much higher standards then the Sharifs and the Bhuttos; if we wanted another old crook, then no need for the 'change', especially by one who professes to create a 'Riyasat e Medina'. But he was working for a 'Riyasat e Machivelli' instead.

 

[Watandar]

It is not about the "case" but the "final verdict" - every final verdict has the same legal value and it's not something difficult to understand because that is a legal fact which you can deny to acknowledge.

The ad hominems doesn't help your argument either

It's not always a "final verdict" as we have seen many times of previous convictions being overturned and cases quashed.

 

[meh_analysis]

Firstly, I despise both Imran and Nawaz equally! And that's because of the severe 'personality flaws' I have been harping about for a long time.
And secondly, your 'whatabouttism' won't help: Because ZAB was a product of the military, because Nawaz was, doesn't make Imran a better product of the military. Enough of the whataboutism.
What Pakistan needs is a prolonged period of focus, continuity of policies, deterrence against India and of 'governance' and as far as I can see, the current arrangement is the best Pakistan has since Zia's death in 1988. BTW, I hate Zia more than any single leader of Pakistan. I had lived through his damn rule in the 80s. Me and @VCheng : We know about him and we know about the Pakistan Establishment except my views have diverged from VCheng on the path forward.

I understand your views from a person who wants a stable government and some cases I agree that it's correct. However I believe that human freedom and choices are better than economic and political stability. We have enough conventional deterrence to close a war with India, even if India's military might grows twice. It's basic cost to profit ratio, India and it's politicians are better off having Pakistan alive than to try to destroy it by sustaining heavy losses. The idea that India wants us dead is just a slogan used to rally up both nations to ignore major problems. Hence comes my second point, if the politicians are free and come through votes then it's far better than a hybrid regime. I'm not saying take all power from the military, I think Pakistan's military might despite so much inefficiency is primarily due to the military having complete control of the defence sector. But their involvement in Politics, economics and other parts of the civillian sector should be removed. Again to reiterate, people do not dislike the military but dislike it's footprint in sectors where it should frankly should not be there. Not to mention if politicians were chosen freely then their crimes could be judged more freely by the literate class. However the establishment despite being in complete control since 1955, hasn't evolved the education system substantially nor has it ever seen the voices of the people. The reason why Bengal, Karachi, Balochistan and other happens is because of the establishment. These people want their rights to be heard, their freedom to be given yet the establishment answers with force. I'll agree that people are also quite opportunistic, they'll only call out unfairness when it only effects them. Best example is Punjabi, many of whom never complained about the system until jobs shrank and the perche system started to effect them. The same goes to IK, he was fine with the system till he had problems with it. Call it hypocritical all you want, the fact of the matter is that unlike others IK never negotiated with the military. As unlike PMLN or PPP, he realized that if allowed then the system would only reward loyalty instead of work which would ruin Pakistan. Since it's inception, this is the worst period for Pakistan. No democracy, rampant corruption, decline of freedom at an alarming rate, fascist ideology increase, emigration at new levels, brain drain, high levels of unemployment, no industrial growth compared to inflation, shrinking of economic growth rate, bad infrastructure and worst of all the complete abandonment of freedom of rights of the people. What is the difference between the IOK Kashmiri and us then? Out people also get shot and killed by the establishment if we oppose.

 

[VCheng]

This same court system later admits it was responsible for judicial murder of a Prime Minister and regrets it provided cover to lawbreakers and dictators.

Therefore you look at each case individually.

No, such a record means that NONE of its verdicts are trustworthy.

 

[Meengla]

The same goes to IK, he was fine with the system till he had problems with it. Call it hypocritical all you want, the fact of the matter is that unlike others IK never negotiated with the military.

This alone shows how far from reality you are: Imran's rise to be the PM is owed to the military, Imran's hold on power was owed to the military, and Imran's attempts to get around the NCM was routed via the military. Those are incontrovertible facts. You could benefit from reading Dawn.com's archives leading to the NCM vote.
As to you implying that Imran is not taking any 'deal': That's an assumption for which I have not found any evidence. He was inciting a mutiny in the Pakistani military--a crime gone too far even by the low standards of Pakistan's sordid power play. A crime so grave no less than No. 2 most powerful person in Pakistan like General Faiz is facing a Court Martial.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

Noone is forcing you to worship jackboots who have ruined Jinnah's Pakistan , and yet you continue in your misbehavior. Afsos.

I support the progress of the nation, doesn't matter who leads it.

I don't need to follow some Pervert Messiah who likes installing cameras in women's washrooms and wants his Shaikh Chillis to call him the Leader of Ummah.

He is so deluded, he and his coward delusional cabal believe Pakistan only exists because of him, Pakistan's "Akhri Umeed".

 

[hnn]

Depends on each case. Some verdicts are overturned legally, others remain on the books despite the judges who gave that verdict later saying it was under threat and pressure.

Yes as long as the verdict isn't overturned it has legal value so if a verdict has acquitted IK he's not legally a felon in that case and same applies to everyone else - so all politicians who have been acquitted in legal cases against them are not felons anymore as well - so our current PM is not a corrupt leader because he's been acquitted and found not guilty on the corruption charges against him. It's the logical implication of your argument, as well as the legal implication in practice.

 

[VCheng]

unlike others IK never negotiated with the military.

That is because he left himself with nothing to negotiate with, not that he suddenly discovered his integrity once he lost power the same way he gained it in the first place.

 

[hnn]

It's not always a "final verdict" as we have seen many times of previous convictions being overturned and cases quashed.

Yes ok not final because it can be overturned but still a verdict has legal value and implication unless overturned. So the verdict you presented for IK then as a"fact" is not a fact and can be overturned later, and thus doesn't really provide an evidence that he's not guilty of violating OSA. Please pick which argument you want to go forth with

Hint: whichever route you take the end result is the same i.e. either IK and all other politicians are felons, or none of them are

 

[Meengla]

No, such a record means that NONE of its verdicts are trustworthy.

I am often so tempted to start digging into Dawn.com's archives from late 2021 and show them various news items leading to the NCM vote in April 2022 but then, as you said, None are more blind then those who refuse to see. My understanding is that in August 2021 when the Americans left Afghanistan, Imran's head started to get bigger and bigger and he forgot his place. And very soon news started to circulate about controversies around the next Army Chief's appointment; the news were worthy enough for Imran's Cabinet member like Fawad Chaudhry to deny such a rift.
Bottom line is that this was another classic Pakistani power game between Imran and some Generals; in that, some Generals, for their own and Imran's benefits, were working with Imran and some wanted to be totally neutral, and some were against Imran. All the drama had nothing to do with the Americans, Cypher or not. And bringing up the Cypher from a low level American diplomat to topple a so-called 'elected govt' of Pakistan is really an insult to Pakistan but then we know to what lows Imran can fall. Or maybe we have not seen the Abyss yet.

 

[hnn]

https://www.voanews.com/a/former-pa...-negligence-for-rising-terrorism/6958983.html

Sir @Meengla ye link app k lie ha. Juicy part begins at 6:40. Pareshan nai hona mere pehle post se jis pe aap ne wala react kia ha lol

 

[VCheng]

Or maybe we have not seen the Abyss yet.

That is something I fear is likely true.

 

[meh_analysis]

This alone shows how far from reality you are: Imran's rise to be the PM is owed to the military, Imran's hold on power was owed to the military, and Imran's attempts to get around the NCM was routed via the military. Those are incontrovertible facts. You could benefit from reading Dawn.com's archives leading to the NCM vote.
As to you implying that Imran is not taking any 'deal': That's an assumption for which I have not found any evidence. He was inciting a mutiny in the Pakistani military--a crime gone too far even by the low standards of Pakistan's sordid power play. A crime so grave no less than No. 2 most powerful person in Pakistan like General Faiz is facing a Court Martial.

Mutiny against what? Think about, it's against the rampant control of the establishment on other sectors. Everyone knows what Gen Bajwa did and how the secret of the establishment was exposed. People clinged onto Faiz and considered him a better person simply because of the relations of him and IK. The establishment is a group of powerful people, they would not let one have complete control. Even FM Asim Muneer is a cog in a wider machine, those who try to ruin the machine are thrown away. So Faiz could also be kicked out because of his growing influence and rapid rise with the public, rather than IK bond. Even if we agree that Faiz was arrested for inciting a mutiny, IK could have very well taken up to the negotiation table to cover up the face of the establishment as early as Sep much like earlier polticians. Even if he liked it or not, people had finally grown tired of the establishment. IK reiterated countless time that it's not the military, just America. When people and the military threw Gen Bajwa under the bus, only then he talked about his involvement. Even if we take your idea that IK was involved with the establishment and ployed a rebellion, he would have already weighted the consequences of having a mutiny instead of negotiation. The fact of the matter is, the people came out and it changed everything. It's very likely they didn't want to make it so big, however once he realized the people he would've understand that it's better to have a more transparent government than establishment rule. So even if we take your opinion, it comes to the same conclusion of IK wanting a more transparent government. Simply because it benefitted him, however we benefit from him doing said thing as the saying goes, "He is led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention."