JF-17 - Updates, News & Discussion

[AeronautIR]

Spot on: USA's advancing Link 16/Link 22 with 5G integration for HD video feeds in JADC2 networks, while China's XS-3 and CETC hypersonic data links enable ultra-high-bandwidth sharing across PLA forces. Those old GSM/CDMA/TDMA techs? Ancient history—modern TDLs use advanced waveforms like Orthogonal Frequency Division Multiplexing (OFDM) for the massive throughput.

Goodness, I didn't even understand CDMA/TDMA and here comes OFDM
I think I will stick with aerodynamics and let you handle the next gen TDL

 

[MasterChief]

Then why is Pakistan not joining?

Where are the kickbacks in doing that?

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

Not my area of expertise but I would assume MIMO and beam forming too. Looks like an application for AESA tech being mastered by Pakistan?

After Radar, I would hope they do communication and EA application of the tech too.

I am doing an educated guess and i maybe wrong but i think 5th-gen and next-gen TDLs (MADL on F-35, China’s new links, future Link-16 upgrades) may all be using or trying to integrate MIMO + AESA-style digital beamforming for directional, jamming-resistant, and high-speed comms.

We should work in this direction and we can take technical help from china and start from today

arslank is the guy who can explain but i cannot tag him. Maybe he has deactivated his account?

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

I would not be that sure if those are truly PAF aircraft. Why specifically those starting with 24 serial number were sent to Azerbaijan? There is no indication that those aircrafts ever returned to Pakistan. The tanker aircraft that accompanied them in their journey to Azerbaijan returned for Pakistan a month ago, without JF-17s.

no one knows at this point but the serial numberings say they can be ours..

 

[Bilal]

I am doing an educated guess and i maybe wrong but i think 5th-gen and next-gen TDLs (MADL on F-35, China’s new links, future Link-16 upgrades) may all be using or trying to integrate MIMO + AESA-style digital beamforming for directional, jamming-resistant, and high-speed comms.

We must also should work in this direction and we can take technical help from china.

arslank is the guy who can explain but i cannot tag him. Maybe he has deactivated his account?

He is now AK01.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

Goodness, I didn't even understand CDMA/TDMA and here comes OFDM
I think I will stick with aerodynamics and let you handle the next gen TDL

I am an AI guy but my roommate was doing research in 5th/ 6th gen so i heard from him discussing OFDM/OFDMA.. @Ak01 should handle this next gen TDL. He knows alot on this topic.

 

[Ak01]

Already under development by USA and China where bandwidth is so high that even videos can be shared, though I don't understand its technicalities of GSM, CDMA, TDMA etc.

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this covers a bit, it should give you a fundamentals on the differences and issues etc, then just tag me with any follow up questions

 

[AeronautIR]

thats me,

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this covers a bit, it should give you a fundamentals on the differences and issues etc, then just tag me with any follow up questions

Great... thank you... I have talked to Bilal Khan from Quwa account on X in a space... will try to understand the technical process behind this invisible network.

 

[UndercoverJIX]

You forgot the millennium falcon, if everything goes to plan we should be getting at least 40 of those between 2028 and 2035

View attachment 162961

according to some news, it appeared above France recently,

 

[WARSIDT]

"Dependent"? On what? On China for supplying weapons to Pakistan?

Are you seriously expecting Pakistan to produce heavy military hardware on its own, or co-produce with a tiny budget everything that China produces?

Is that even feasible for Pakistan? The country doesn't even have enough money to build roads and rail to date where whole of Pakistan is interconnected.
---
And, is that not happening currently within the limits that Pakistan faces? Are you under the impression that Pakistan does not want to produce anything at home but only wants to import military hardware from abroad?

What do these guys do?

GIDS - Home

www.gids.com.pk

https://www.karachishipyard.com.pk/

https://www.pac.org.pk/

---
Turkiye is the second largest military in NATO, yet it's flying upgraded F-16s still. On the other hand, Turkiye's tiny NATO members are flying fifth generation fighters, some of them even operate aircraft carriers.

Turkiye can't even switch on S-400 without American greenlight if I am not mistaken. They tried to get more goodies from Russia but CATSA dictated otherwise.

With the answers you gave to the other guy you already answered your own point without noticing it.

Let us talk through Türkiye and the USA. You said it yourself. Türkiye bought weapons from the US for many years and even before the Cyprus operation in 1974 the US was already threatening embargoes. Then the operation happened and Türkiye was left with almost no spare parts and even bullets were limited. That is when most of the major defence companies were created and that is how Türkiye reached its current production power.

So Türkiye was dependent on a superpower and paid the price. In the T129 project both Pakistan and Türkiye suffered from this situation. Even now we buy very few products and still face the consequences. Like you said we bought the S400 system and were removed from the F35 program. Before the S400 Türkiye wanted to buy an air defence system from China. The US threatened again. Then we said let us buy Patriot and they did not sell. Then we bought the S400 and Türkiye was kicked out of the F35 program while producing the mid body section and more than 900 parts including engine related components and even developing weapons for the jet.

So what did Türkiye do. It built its own air defence. Then went even further and built everything needed for an Iron Dome like system. Now think about Pakistan. If China applies an embargo and says you cannot get the KAAN jet or I will stop selling you aircraft parts what can you do. The US will not open its arms for you. Pakistan will stand alone right next to a country like India.

You may say why would China do that. What if it does. If your country thinks the way you think it will experience exactly what Türkiye experienced in 1974. The problem is Pakistan is next to a much larger country and is in active tension with it. That keeps Pakistan stuck in these dilemmas. That is why you should expand your thoughts because many of your comments sound like China will always give and always sell. Türkiye also thought that way back in 1974.

You also need to turn to your own country and ask, "What if China stops supplying us with weapons, or India becomes more opposed to the US, and the trio of China, Russia, and India grow closer, what can Pakistan do then?"

 

[puttputt]

And, when exactly do you think Pakistan started it's nuclear program?

View attachment 163268

Nice try, I clearly said "nuclear weapons" -- NOT the civilian energy program. The scientific base for nuclear obviously predated the military program. Indeed, that's when the scientists who led the civilian program urged the then Pakistani government (around the late 1950s and early 1960s) to build the nuclear fuel-cycle at home to acclerate our nuclear weapons program. But the babus at the time, like you, said, "Why? If we need it, China will sell us."

With that "wise" decision, babus like you had Pakistan sit on its hands while the Indians did exactly what our scientists advised (i.e., use the open commercial environment to create the entire nuclear fuel-cycle). The Indians then carried out their cold tests, and from there, the US came hard on Pakistan to prevent us from securing our nuclear weapons. Now, thanks to babus like you, we had to start from 10 years behind where we originally were, and against the US-led sanctions regime.

But, alhamdulillah, by the Grace of Allah (SWT), babus like you couldn't get in the way (though your lot tried) and we were able to build the entire fuel cycle indigenously.

Do you know we developed this entire fuel cycle? Well, here's a hint: CHINA HAD LITTLE TO DO WITH IT.

It was because we had scientists, diplomats, bureaucrats, etc, all forging ties with middle-powers across the world to rapidly learn what they had and to reverse-engineer or develop from scratch in Pakistan. Yes, China was among the many, many who were able to get some technology from, but it was WE who put it all together and indigenously create our own original fuel cycle.

Today, we now have the capacity to design and build our own SMRs; basically revolutionize electricity delivery across every rural area in Pakistan and exponentially accelerate our nuclear warhead production if we should choose. Do you know who stops us from this by denying us access to enough uranium? The US and, surprise-surprise, China.

Instead, our entire current uranium supply channel is dictated upon us by the Chinese, which comes with the condition to buy their reactor technology (which is fine, to be fair, but doesn't quite line up with the optimal direction that works best for Pakistan, while also putting an artificial limiter on our warhead production).

BTW, do ask your benefactors about that time China squashed a bilateral Pakistan-Kazakhstan deal by pressuring them to lay off "their" market. Or about that time China did the same thing with a potential Pakistan-Russia deal.

"Dependent"? On what? On China for supplying weapons to Pakistan?

Are you seriously expecting Pakistan to produce heavy military hardware on its own, or co-produce with a tiny budget everything that China produces?

Is that even feasible for Pakistan? The country doesn't even have enough money to build roads and rail to date where whole of Pakistan is interconnected.

Spoken like a true babu who hates the potential of his own country; I'm 100% sure you're only there loot and plunder with your benefactors.

We indigenously developed the entire God-damn nuclear fuel-cycle, we can do anything provided we impose discipline on how we manage resources, build a genuine environment for private sector growth in manufacturing, dedicate funding for organic R&D and building our scientific community. Can't exactly do that effectively if we're ignoring partnership opportunities with willing middle powers and shuttling our precious ForEx to fund Chinese imports.

And, is that not happening currently within the limits that Pakistan faces? Are you under the impression that Pakistan does not want to produce anything at home but only wants to import military hardware from abroad?

What do these guys do?

https://www.gids.com.pk/
https://www.karachishipyard.com.pk/
https://www.pac.org.pk/

1. GIDS is a marketing front of NESCOM. It lacks the ability to scale up production to the necessary levels because of babus like you helming the decision-making cadres.

2. KSEW can only construct from imported KoMs. It will only go indigenous once the private industry is able to source key inputs like steel, etc indigenously. It's a real shame we couldn't do it yet, had it not been for babus like you nationalizing our industry.

3. PAC? Babus like you ruined it from the potential it had (once being a French licensed Mirage rebuild and ATAR MRO site with people who could garner respect from Denel, TAI, etc) to the PowerPoint factory it is today.

Turkiye is the second largest military in NATO, yet it's flying upgraded F-16s still. On the other hand, Turkiye's tiny NATO members are flying fifth generation fighters, some of them even operate aircraft carriers.

Turkiye can't even switch on S-400 without American greenlight if I am not mistaken. They tried to get more goodies from Russia but CATSA dictated otherwise.

Yes, and Turkiye has greater industrial grasp of its F-16s than we do our JF-17s. If the US and China cut Turkey and Pakistan off tomorrow, respectively, I am 100% sure that the Turks will have an easier time keeping their F-16s airworthy -- if not outright reverse engineer it -- than Pakistan will with JF-17.

And re: S-400... It's old talk now as the Turks move onto SIPER and Steel Dome. Of course, I'm sure you don't care, you're probably in the babu party lining up their Swiss accounts for Cheeni Dome.

 

[Gripen9]

In the international military trade field, there is a common but unspoken unwritten rule:

If you don't buy my overpriced weapons, I will punish you (through sanctions, proxy wars, direct military threats, etc.).

How many countries do you think can defy this rule?

Or bring democracy to your kingdoms

 

[Ak01]

What do these guys do?

https://www.gids.com.pk/

Markets toys deveoped by nescom etc, however, as you can see, the only real competitive product on offer is the fatah series, the rest is fluff that some uncle hopes we can flog off in hopes of raising capital. Half of gids offerings are theoretical and the others have measly production rates, heck, the only thing gids consistently exports are dumb bombs, even those now the arabs are turning to india forhttps://www.gids.com.pk/

https://www.karachishipyard.com.pk/

KSEW has no capacity to research, or develop, NRDI is a good organisation, but has no budget and thus, it hand needs to be held, hence why programs like Jinnah class just ended up being derivatives of something asfat designed. KSEW just builds kits.

https://www.pac.org.pk/

nothing, pac is a shitshow, its actually a really embarrassing excuse of an organisation and its such a shame seeing how far it fell

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

With the answers you gave to the other guy you already answered your own point without noticing it.

Thanks for your feedback

Let us talk through Türkiye and the USA. You said it yourself. Türkiye bought weapons from the US for many years and even before the Cyprus operation in 1974 the US was already threatening embargoes. Then the operation happened and Türkiye was left with almost no spare parts and even bullets were limited. That is when most of the major defence companies were created and that is how Türkiye reached its current production power.

I did not say any of this. I wasn't even aware of it.

So Türkiye was dependent on a superpower and paid the price. In the T129 project both Pakistan and Türkiye suffered from this situation.

US denied us AH-1Z helicopters and US/Turkiye denied us T-129 ATAK helicopter.

We are in middle of a war and Pakistan need attack helicopters, so the only viable option left is China. Would you not agree?

Even now we buy very few products and still face the consequences.

We simply stopped buying from the US except parts for legacy programs. This is because we can't afford to waste time fulfilling American demands with every single purchase.

Like you said we bought the S400 system and were removed from the F35 program. Before the S400 Türkiye wanted to buy an air defence system from China. The US threatened again. Then we said let us buy Patriot and they did not sell. Then we bought the S400 and Türkiye was kicked out of the F35 program while producing the mid body section and more than 900 parts including engine related components and even developing weapons for the jet.

The reason Pakistan has joined with China at the hip is because the US imposed military sanctions on Pakistan between 1991-2001 which stalled the modernisation of Pakistan Air Force. Pakistan went to China and produced the JF-17 Thunder by 2007.

So what did Türkiye do. It built its own air defence. Then went even further and built everything needed for an Iron Dome like system.

We don't have a track record of building something major like an attack helicopter by ourselves simply because our economy is too small and our population is too large.

Tension with India and instability in Afghanistan is a constant drain on Pakistan's resources.

Now think about Pakistan. If China applies an embargo and says you cannot get the KAAN jet or I will stop selling you aircraft parts what can you do. The US will not open its arms for you. Pakistan will stand alone right next to a country like India.

We learnt our lesson from the consequences of having a close relation with the US, and that's why Pakistan has realigned it's foreign policy with China instead.

China has never demanded anything from us for anything in return. Never (well I'm not aware of anything anyway). Please correct me if I am wrong.

You may say why would China do that. What if it does.

Yes, why exactly? Do you think China goes around stopping progress of other nations through war and sanctions if it doesn't need them for its own national interests?

No China does not have such a policy. Only West has been practicing such an inhumane policy since the end of World War Two.

If your country thinks the way you think it will experience exactly what Türkiye experienced in 1974. The problem is Pakistan is next to a much larger country and is in active tension with it. That keeps Pakistan stuck in these dilemmas. That is why you should expand your thoughts because many of your comments sound like China will always give and always sell. Türkiye also thought that way back in 1974.

Turkiye only started developing after the European Union got fed up of Turkish demands and requests to join the bloc. Instead, the EU opened their markets to Turkiye without allowing it to join the bloc and at the same time they encouraged / helped Turkiye to be successful in its Look East policy. Only after the Turkish economy boomed, it could finally expand it's industrial base and that's how Turkiye got to where it is today.

You also need to turn to your own country and ask, "What if China stops supplying us with weapons, or India becomes more opposed to the US, and the trio of China, Russia, and India grow closer, what can Pakistan do then?"

Around 2003/2004, on this very forum the Indian members would tell us that as the Indian market is much larger than Pakistan's, China will eventually have no choice but to dump Pakistan and side with India. That was two decades ago.

Again, where does this thinking come from that Pakistan does not want to develop everything by itself?

We develope our own things wherever we can. We just can't afford to be too ambitious. Project Azm is a good reminder.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

Nice try, I clearly said "nuclear weapons" -- NOT the civilian energy program. The scientific base for nuclear obviously predated the military program. Indeed, that's when the scientists who led the civilian program urged the then Pakistani government (around the late 1950s and early 1960s) to build the nuclear fuel-cycle at home to acclerate our nuclear weapons program. But the babus at the time, like you, said, "Why? If we need it, China will sell us."

With that "wise" decision, babus like you had Pakistan sit on its hands while the Indians did exactly what our scientists advised (i.e., use the open commercial environment to create the entire nuclear fuel-cycle). The Indians then carried out their cold tests, and from there, the US came hard on Pakistan to prevent us from securing our nuclear weapons. Now, thanks to babus like you, we had to start from 10 years behind where we originally were, and against the US-led sanctions regime.

But, alhamdulillah, by the Grace of Allah (SWT), babus like you couldn't get in the way (though your lot tried) and we were able to build the entire fuel cycle indigenously.

Do you know we developed this entire fuel cycle? Well, here's a hint: CHINA HAD LITTLE TO DO WITH IT.

It was because we had scientists, diplomats, bureaucrats, etc, all forging ties with middle-powers across the world to rapidly learn what they had and to reverse-engineer or develop from scratch in Pakistan. Yes, China was among the many, many who were able to get some technology from, but it was WE who put it all together and indigenously create our own original fuel cycle.

Today, we now have the capacity to design and build our own SMRs; basically revolutionize electricity delivery across every rural area in Pakistan and exponentially accelerate our nuclear warhead production if we should choose. Do you know who stops us from this by denying us access to enough uranium? The US and, surprise-surprise, China.

Instead, our entire current uranium supply channel is dictated upon us by the Chinese, which comes with the condition to buy their reactor technology (which is fine, to be fair, but doesn't quite line up with the optimal direction that works best for Pakistan, while also putting an artificial limiter on our warhead production).

BTW, do ask your benefactors about that time China squashed a bilateral Pakistan-Kazakhstan deal by pressuring them to lay off "their" market. Or about that time China did the same thing with a potential Pakistan-Russia deal.


Spoken like a true babu who hates the potential of his own country; I'm 100% sure you're only there loot and plunder with your benefactors.

We indigenously developed the entire God-damn nuclear fuel-cycle, we can do anything provided we impose discipline on how we manage resources, build a genuine environment for private sector growth in manufacturing, dedicate funding for organic R&D and building our scientific community. Can't exactly do that effectively if we're ignoring partnership opportunities with willing middle powers and shuttling our precious ForEx to fund Chinese imports.

1. GIDS is a marketing front of NESCOM. It lacks the ability to scale up production to the necessary levels because of babus like you helming the decision-making cadres.

2. KSEW can only construct from imported KoMs. It will only go indigenous once the private industry is able to source key inputs like steel, etc indigenously. It's a real shame we couldn't do it yet, had it not been for babus like you nationalizing our industry.

3. PAC? Babus like you ruined it from the potential it had (once being a French licensed Mirage rebuild and ATAR MRO site with people who could garner respect from Denel, TAI, etc) to the PowerPoint factory it is today.


Yes, and Turkiye has greater industrial grasp of its F-16s than we do our JF-17s. If the US and China cut Turkey and Pakistan off tomorrow, respectively, I am 100% sure that the Turks will have an easier time keeping their F-16s airworthy -- if not outright reverse engineer it -- than Pakistan will with JF-17.

And re: S-400... It's old talk now as the Turks move onto SIPER and Steel Dome. Of course, I'm sure you don't care, you're probably in the babu party lining up their Swiss accounts for Cheeni Dome.

I read two-thirds of your emotional speech and I have to admit, you win hands down.

All hail puttputt.
All hail puttputt.
All hail puttputt.

So, it's been decided then that as soon as I die (or 'you lot' kill me), Pakistan will rise at the hypersonic speed.

Once again please,
All hail puttputt.