JF-17 - Updates, News & Discussion

[AeronautIR]

LOL...... This reminds me of a well-known Chinese figure.

Xu Yongling. Test pilot in the PLAAF Test Pilot Brigade. Air Force Senior Colonel.

He was a decorated test pilot in China, an instructor at the Chinese Test Pilot Academy, and a top test flight expert...
He participated in the test flights of the J-8/J-10 series fighter jets and was deeply involved in the compilation of the pilot manuals for these aircraft.
He is also the only pilot in China who, after experiencing multiple emergency parachute jumps due to flight accidents, continued to work as a test pilot. (He suffered serious injuries in one of these incidents.)
In short, he is a highly accomplished pilot.

But......

After his retirement, he began working in the media. He participated in many military commentary programs and also produced some media programs himself.
However, when he commented on military/international political content outside of aviation, he often made many elementary mistakes. This led to him being widely criticized and controversial on Chinese social media...

A lesson I've learned:
The more specialized a person is, the more blind spots they have in their knowledge......

He should have stuck to aviation topics only in media... but salute to his service as a Test Pilot

 

[bravo_1]

Only because MP5s are still popular in the civilian market, POF is good at and ONLY good at making cold war German licensed guns and in 2025 no military is soy facing over those.

Basically shitshow, idk what's this guy obsession with g-series

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[Pakistan Space Agency]

Reminder that iskandar Ali mirza in one of the shockingly competent things that he did do was try to start a nuclear weapons program but it was Ayub who ended it ...

Start with what exactly?

 

[Toxic]

Basically shitshow, idk what's this guy obsession with g-series

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It's not just an obsession it's the only things these people know, if the CZ bren was chosen they would have been producing it for the next 100 years.

 

[puttputt]

My friend, do you have a source for what you said about China preventing Pakistan from obtaining uranium and China requiring Pakistan to purchase reactors? Is there any evidence of China pressuring Pakistan? Could you share some materials from Pakistan? If the sources are Western media, then forget it, because in their eyes, whatever China does is bad, and the deforestation in Brazil is attributed to China buying Brazilian soybeans.

Lol. "Give me a source, but only a source I will agree with."

The uranium issue is known in diplomatic circles and the Pakistani nuclear scientist community, especially within PAEC. Those who routinely work with or interact with Pakistan's nuclear scientists will already know this. Of course, Babus and their benefactors don't mingle with such communities, as is evident from the IQ on display in their posts and comments.

When PAEC's leadership proposed the SMR route to the Pak Gov't, it was around the time a uranium purchase deal with Russia was being finalized (which would also involve Kazakhstan).

To their credit, a retired PAF ACM and a certain interim PM were playing a big role in getting this uranium deal through the door because they had believed in the vision of developing the rural areas while empowering our scientific community. Sadly, big powers -- i.e., China -- decided to step in and pressure all sides to stop the initiative.

If you disagree with me, then do explain to us why your gov't refuses to directly sell uranium to Pak, i.e., without the strings of buying your reactor tech?

Reminder that iskandar Ali mirza in one of the shockingly competent things that he did do was try to start a nuclear weapons program but it was Ayub who ended it and focused on civilian program entirely. Not until the mid 60s was the civilian program even given much focus. That is to say with competent decisions Pakistani nuclear program could’ve progressed much faster

With peanuts or grass?

Do you see the utter disdain this man has for his own country? These are the types of people who have been running Pakistan. So, if you wonder why things are as bad, here you go. This is what our so-called leaders think of their people. @Ibbi32 @Ak01 @Toxic

Anyways, for the crowd: Pakistan's nuclear program was built on a genuine R&D base. So, in the early 1960s or so, Pakistan's scientists urged the then gov't to pursue the available commercial channels open to us at the time to build the full nuclear fuel cycle. This is the foundation of a nuclear weapons program, basically. India was already doing it at the time, and our community caught onto it and wanted to ensure we wouldn't be left behind.

When the scientists brought this matter up to the gov't, the Babus sitting up top said, "Why should we. If we need nuclear weapons, China will sell us." I am not kidding. Anyways, India went ahead and did the thing, and we were caught having to build the entire cycle the hard way. This resulted in our own weapons program being about 10-15 years behind where it could've been had Babu sahibs didn't swallow the ladus in their mouths to speak.

Anyways, whenever someone says, "Why partner with Turkey" or "Why make ABC, we'll buy from China," know who they are. They're Babus, the dimwitted, unintentional 5th column of Indian and other foreign interests in our country.

 

[Toxic]

With peanuts or grass?

Something Something about eating Ghass no? I wonder who said that

 

[Ibbi32]

With peanuts or grass?

With all the american money pouring in from getting into a pact with the Americans. Just how zia did it, and in 1950s without other issues to worry on this program wouldve been much easier to progress.

 

[Night Memory]

I was one of the hosts of the quwa podcast and none of us made this claim

My apologies then to rest of the members for sharing incorrect info, maybe i mis-remember. I will try to listen to the podcast again in my free time.

Also why did you guys stop doing them?

 

[baqai]

Just a reminder, this thread is about JF-17, a lot of discussion has gone off track, this thread is being monitored

 

[puttputt]

With all the american money pouring in from getting into a pact with the Americans. Just how zia did it, and in 1950s without other issues to worry on this program wouldve been much easier to progress.

Thing is, what our scientists wanted to do (in 1960) was perfectly fine and legal at the time. It was India that tainted the waters by using the full nuclear fuel cycle for nukes; otherwise, Pakistan was permitted to build said cycle (for civilian purposes).

The point was to build the cycle ahead of time so that, should the need arise, we could expedite our nuclear weapons program.

Imagine a scenario, for example, where we in late 1970 or early 1971 we caught onto India's antics in East Pakistan and went ahead with a cold test or issue an overt threat to nuke the bastards if they keep interfering in our affairs. Or, would the Indians even try meddling in East Pakistan had they known we also owned the full nuclear fuel cycle?

This is the type of multi-step thinking that our Babu sahibs are incapable of. For them, it's as simple as "buy from China," without answering what would happen without a strong, high-value export base to fund those imports (via ForEx).

Science? Bah
Economics? Bah
Industries? Bah

Babu sahibs just want to score a quick buck by exploiting the public exchequer, ignoring (or now changing) laws, and not doing anything driven by vision or actual nation-building.

Returning to the JF-17. This directly ties back to the JF-17 because we couldn't make this our very own fighter due to the structural problems created by you-know-who.

We don't have an officially licensed d-level MRO site for the RD-93, despite being a licensed d-level MRO site for the Mirage III/5 and its engine (to the point where we were the regional MRO centre for Middle Eastern jets for a time).

We have trouble with integrating our preferred munitions to the platform due to a lack of strong institutional knowledge of the actual platform -- and what experts we did have, they have long left the PAF and were unable to instill a lasting system of ongoing fighter development culture.

Sorry for steering things off-topic, but there are times where the fundamental issues need to be discussed so that we can understand why or how the current course is heading.

We went from a time where we could restore Mirage III/5s and closely collaborate with our counterparts in Dassault and Denel to figure out niche customizations to putting our hands out for handouts, and having like the Babu up here tell us, "Well beggars can't be choosers" after he and his ilk got us into our current situation in the first place.

It's absolutely disgraceful and should anger every patriotic Pakistani.

 

[Ibbi32]

Thing is, what our scientists wanted to do (in 1960) was perfectly fine and legal at the time. It was India that tainted the waters by using the full nuclear fuel cycle for nukes; otherwise, Pakistan was permitted to build said cycle (for civilian purposes).

The point was to build the cycle ahead of time so that, should the need arise, we could expedite our nuclear weapons program.

Imagine a scenario, for example, where we in late 1970 or early 1971 we caught onto India's antics in East Pakistan and went ahead with a cold test or issue an overt threat to nuke the bastards if they keep interfering in our affairs. Or, would the Indians even try meddling in East Pakistan had they known we also owned the full nuclear fuel cycle?

This is the type of multi-step thinking that our Babu sahibs are incapable of. For them, it's as simple as "buy from China," without answering what would happen without a strong, high-value export base to fund those imports (via ForEx).

Science? Bah
Economics? Bah
Industries? Bah

Babu sahibs just want to score a quick buck by exploiting the public exchequer, ignoring (or now changing) laws, and not doing anything driven by vision or actual nation-building.

Returning to the JF-17. This directly ties back to the JF-17 because we couldn't make this our very own fighter due to the structural problems created by you-know-who.

We don't have an officially licensed d-level MRO site for the RD-93, despite being a licensed d-level MRO site for the Mirage III/5 and its engine (to the point where we were the regional MRO centre for Middle Eastern jets for a time).

We have trouble with integrating our preferred munitions to the platform due to a lack of strong institutional knowledge of the actual platform -- and what experts we did have, they have long left the PAF and were unable to instill a lasting system of ongoing fighter development culture.

Sorry for steering things off-topic, but there are times where the fundamental issues need to be discussed so that we can understand why or how the current course is heading.

We went from a time where we could restore Mirage III/5s and closely collaborate with our counterparts in Dassault and Denel to figure out niche customizations to putting our hands out for handouts, and having like the Babu up here tell us, "Well beggars can't be choosers" after he and his ilk got us into our current situation in the first place.

It's absolutely disgraceful and should anger every patriotic Pakistani.

The inherent problem with building a nuke earlier is our leaderships inability to see things out further. The Pakistani nuclear program only happened because bhutto zia and aq khan fought tooth and nail to protect it. Mirza Ayub and yahya were too simple minded to understand its true significance and especially that drunken yahya would be the first to shut down the program if the littlest pressure came from the Americans. The Americans would send us an option like nickel grass for east Pakistan and the man would be head over heels in abandoning nuclear prospects.

 

[puttputt]

The inherent problem with building a nuke earlier is our leaderships inability to see things out further. The Pakistani nuclear program only happened because bhutto zia and aq khan fought tooth and nail to protect it. Mirza Ayub and yahya were too simple minded to understand its true significance and especially that drunken yahya would be the first to shut down the program if the littlest pressure came from the Americans. The Americans would send us an option like nickel grass for east Pakistan and the man would be head over heels in abandoning nuclear prospects.

Yaar, it wasn't about the nukes per se. It was about foresight. In 1960 our scientists asked Ayub Khan to invest in the full fuel cycle. That was available to us back then (legally, no problems). It also happened to be the foundational layer for nukes if we needed nukes, but the intent wasn't to build nukes. Rather, the scientists wanted the ability to do so (via the fuel cycle) should the need arise.

Ayub Khan, etc., didn't get the point or see the value because the Babus under him were "advising" him that it'd be a waste of money (the fuel cycle). They didn't appreciate scientific endeavours and were all stuck on the mantra that we were a bunch of poor brown Mozlems who didn't know birth control. Let's not worry about making Pakistan more prosperous, no, let's bag on the Bengalis for being too brown or not Aryan-looking enough and having too many kids. This was the problem.

Today, that same mentality is shifting over to other marginalized socio-ethnic groups because, God forbid, it ain't our (Babu) fault for mismanaging the country.

 

[Ibbi32]

But you're missing the point, this isnt about nukes

Its about mindset. The same mindset applies to jf-17. It is a shame we managed to do something as impressive as this project only to not take it much further and idigenise the plane further. PFX is a step in the right direction but incompetent decisions that lack foresight for the last 30 years have greatly hindered Pakistan. I am not totally in favour of working with turkey but sitting on our asses and hoping china hears our pleas isnt much better. Reality is we need new partners, we need to leverage our relationships with south africa and brazil further and take full ownership of our relationships with jf-17 customers to make sure we can handle the entire process without relying on china. But how are we gonna do all that if we dont even have particular MRO facilities for rd93 at this point we shouldve been looking at full licensed production to build our engine knowledge base by this point.

Be it jf-17 or nuclear program great programs require absolutely determined leaders with a can do mindset. The babus who think so pessimisticaly about our own nation infuriate me so much because they genuinely dont want to further the scope further

 

[Ak01]

Unfortunately, you give us far too much credit.

Its about mindset. The same mindset applies to jf-17. It is a shame we managed to do something as impressive as this project only to not take it much further and idigenise the plane further.

I really dont see this is as anything crazy, heck, id actually say keeping the mirages airworthy and doing all the work on them is far more impressive, far more indigenous and far more involved than what the JF-17 is now. We license produced a design we had inputs on, its no different to what the Babur Class is, or perhaps Al-Khalid is, but to a far lesser extent.

PFX is a step in the right direction but incompetent decisions that lack foresight for the last 30 years have greatly hindered Pakistan.

You've fell for the hopium. You are sitting here under the impression that PFX is a step in the right direction...yet neither you, nor i, know for sure what PFX actually is. Nobody has said anything other than drop a photo of a CFD still showing a JF-17... What if PFX tomorrow was just a JF-17 modification that PAC contracted to China for example... The point is, we're very quick at giving credit and patting ourselves on the back, yet neither you, nor i know what the project is, we can only speculate.

For PFX, i have not noticed any new facilities at PAC or NASTP, nor have we seen any major players enter the market, so while we sit here patting ourselves on the back, how do you know that tomorrow PFX isnt going to be another import job, stamped green... you dont, we just blindly sip on the koolaid provided to us

I am not totally in favour of working with turkey but sitting on our asses and hoping china hears our pleas isnt much better. Reality is we need new partners, we need to leverage our relationships with south africa and brazil further and take full ownership of our relationships with jf-17 customers to make sure we can handle the entire process without relying on china.

You cant, the project from its conception relied heavily on China, the JF-17 was meant to create an industry, it was meant to create strategic autonomy, yet all it actually created was a dependance.

But how are we gonna do all that if we dont even have particular MRO facilities for rd93 at this point we shouldve been looking at full licensed production to build our engine knowledge base

First lets work on getting the RD-93's manuals, we dont have those, we have Chinese manuals and schematics with Chinese part numbers so we arent able to buy direct from Klimov, this once again means we must contact CATIC, who will tack on a middleman fee, who will then buy from Klimov and re export to us.

 

[东风夜放花千树]

Lol. "Give me a source, but only a source I will agree with."

The uranium issue is known in diplomatic circles and the Pakistani nuclear scientist community, especially within PAEC. Those who routinely work with or interact with Pakistan's nuclear scientists will already know this. Of course, Babus and their benefactors don't mingle with such communities, as is evident from the IQ on display in their posts and comments.

When PAEC's leadership proposed the SMR route to the Pak Gov't, it was around the time a uranium purchase deal with Russia was being finalized (which would also involve Kazakhstan).

To their credit, a retired PAF ACM and a certain interim PM were playing a big role in getting this uranium deal through the door because they had believed in the vision of developing the rural areas while empowering our scientific community. Sadly, big powers -- i.e., China -- decided to step in and pressure all sides to stop the initiative.

If you disagree with me, then do explain to us why your gov't refuses to directly sell uranium to Pak, i.e., without the strings of buying your reactor tech?





Do you see the utter disdain this man has for his own country? These are the types of people who have been running Pakistan. So, if you wonder why things are as bad, here you go. This is what our so-called leaders think of their people. @Ibbi32 @Ak01 @Toxic

Anyways, for the crowd: Pakistan's nuclear program was built on a genuine R&D base. So, in the early 1960s or so, Pakistan's scientists urged the then gov't to pursue the available commercial channels open to us at the time to build the full nuclear fuel cycle. This is the foundation of a nuclear weapons program, basically. India was already doing it at the time, and our community caught onto it and wanted to ensure we wouldn't be left behind.

When the scientists brought this matter up to the gov't, the Babus sitting up top said, "Why should we. If we need nuclear weapons, China will sell us." I am not kidding. Anyways, India went ahead and did the thing, and we were caught having to build the entire cycle the hard way. This resulted in our own weapons program being about 10-15 years behind where it could've been had Babu sahibs didn't swallow the ladus in their mouths to speak.

Anyways, whenever someone says, "Why partner with Turkey" or "Why make ABC, we'll buy from China," know who they are. They're Babus, the dimwitted, unintentional 5th column of Indian and other foreign interests in our country.

I am only asking for non-Western sources. Different social classes and professions have varying levels of exposure to events, which can easily lead to different understandings. Diplomatic circles, the Pakistani nuclear scientist community, within the PAEC—do you work in any of these departments?

During the years Pakistan was developing nuclear weapons, China and the Soviet Union had a very bad relationship. There was a war between China and the Soviet Union in 1969. After the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, Russia became pro-Western. After the Crimea incident in 2014, Russia's relations with the West worsened. China-Russia relations began to improve after being upgraded to a "New Era China-Russia Comprehensive Strategic Partnership" in 2019, and after the Russia-Ukraine war, Russia agreed to further develop the relationship and cooperate with China in developing the Far East region. Pakistan had nuclear weapons in 1980—so which year did the things you mentioned happen?

The U.S. has imposed multiple sanctions, arms embargoes, tariffs, and disrupted weapon import contracts with Pakistan—all of these are verifiable news. If you have evidence, I will accept your accusations against China.

I understand that you want the country to be strong enough not to rely on others, but for that, you need to study or work hard to build the country, rather than rely on hearsay to accuse other nations. This behavior is like Israelis using the Bible to claim that Palestine belongs to Israel—completely unfounded.

If you have non-Western evidence, present it. If not, don’t reply. By your logic, if I hear that the U.S. prevented aliens from transferring technology to China, I should go check what actually happened. Conspiracy theories are appealing. India even claims that China’s permanent seat on the Security Council should belong to them.