JF-17 PFX program

[Ali_Baba]

Yes, something like the F-35A or Su-75.

On their own, I agree, the Pakistani engineers have not demonstrated domestically capacities to do most of this on their own. It would definitely involve the procurement of a design or major assistance to the design team from a Chinese firm, especially if the plan is to go with the WS-10 engine.

But if they bite the bullet and go for this modestly next gen design, they could not only deal with the enemy Sam network, but what appear to be the bulk of the Indian fleet being Sukhois, Rafales, and Tejas variants with quality over quantity. The alternative is more J-10s or slightly better JF-17 in the form of the JF-17 PFX-A. If the issue is funding, then, IMHO, The PAF and PAC would be there off trying putting their efforts into get GCC funding for a full fledged PFX program; training engineers, procuring equipment, funding Chinese expertise consulting, buying off the shelf design elements, etc.

Honestly, if you end up with another "joint" project with China, then just save the time and money and buy more J-35A's.

If Pakistan wants to develop a local ability to design fast jets, then why not kick off a project to replace the K8? Or build something like the L-15 and build that solution at home? It will be less technically challenging and there is more opportunity for success. It will help train the required engineers, and it will develop a capability that Pakistan will need by the time the replacement is finished and K8s airframe hours run out ??? You can even make it stealthy if you want. Or a large stealthy UCAV as it will be more appropriate >

 

[MirageV3ff]

Honestly, if you end up with another "joint" project with China, then just save the time and money and buy more J-35A's.

If Pakistan wants to develop a local ability to design fast jets, then why not kick off a project to replace the K8? Or build something like the L-15 and build that solution at home? It will be less technically challenging and there is more opportunity for success. It will help train the required engineers, and it will develop a capability that Pakistan will need by the time the replacement is finished and K8s airframe hours run out ??? You can even make it stealthy if you want. Or a large stealthy UCAV as it will be more appropriate >

Its been mentioned here before that PFX should rather be refocused into a large UCAV instead. Something that's technically less challenging in comparison to say a fighter jet.

And I agree with you we should take the K-8 replacement approach. Something that the Koreans did before they went and developed the KF-21.

Pakistan needs to look at this project from a long term perspective while trying to build an industrial base and an ecosystem that can support the "idea and the development" of a fighter jet.

At the current standing we are struggling to produce the shahpar 3 series drones and yet we have a flagship program like PFX in the other corner

 

[Ak01]

And I agree with you we should take the K-8 replacement approach. Something that the Koreans did before they went and developed the KF-21.

why not go even easier.

Why dont we just bring the JF-17 in house...

we order nuts, bolts, seals etc. Why dont we start making as much as we can at home. modifying, designing, etc.

 

[FuturePAF]

Honestly, if you end up with another "joint" project with China, then just save the time and money and buy more J-35A's.

If Pakistan wants to develop a local ability to design fast jets, then why not kick off a project to replace the K8? Or build something like the L-15 and build that solution at home? It will be less technically challenging and there is more opportunity for success. It will help train the required engineers, and it will develop a capability that Pakistan will need by the time the replacement is finished and K8s airframe hours run out ??? You can even make it stealthy if you want. Or a large stealthy UCAV as it will be more appropriate >

Because Pakistan seems to want to move up the value added chain, while seeking the Saudis fund it. They get done what they can, outsource what they can’t yet to Chinese expertise advising local engineers. The goal might be spin off products that can earn some revenue, as well as bring GCC countries into the Chinese ecosystem on the basis of a Pakistani platform. Pakistan as the middle man gets its defense industry funded and its inventories across all services stocked. If the Saudis are willing to fund the project, Pakistan should go for all the specs it deems necessary; performance as a fighter, as a UCAV command post, and as a launch platform for large and long range missiles from an internal weapons bay; just as the Turks would do if they got GCC funding. The Saudis get the first fully developed variants, and then once Saudi and Pakistani needs are meet, it’s a decent enough product for the export market, just like the JF-17 Block 3 is today.

 

[gamaji]

Honestly, if you end up with another "joint" project with China, then just save the time and money and buy more J-35A's.

If Pakistan wants to develop a local ability to design fast jets, then why not kick off a project to replace the K8? Or build something like the L-15 and build that solution at home? It will be less technically challenging and there is more opportunity for success. It will help train the required engineers, and it will develop a capability that Pakistan will need by the time the replacement is finished and K8s airframe hours run out ??? You can even make it stealthy if you want. Or a large stealthy UCAV as it will be more appropriate >

In my humble opinion, kicking off a project to replace the K8 trainer will probably serve the sole purpose of achieving a solid capability to design and develop a training plane inhouse. Does Pakistan has the luxury of enough time to first complete a project for 100% manufacturing of a training jet in Pakistan and then initiate a 4.5G jet project, and after that becomes fruitful, launch a project for 5G fighter plane? I think answer would be a no.

The current approach that Pakistan is following in this regard is the most logical and offers the shortest critical path. PAF is trying to leverage whatever the critical knowhow learned from Thunder program and then embark upon more complex undertakings, such as working on semi stealth PFX and getting exposure to imported fifth gen plane (i.e. J-35) while developing/working on this type of tech (i.e. KAAN) in parallel.

You don't need to produce every single net, bolt, screw, plastic, rubber, and other components 100% in Pakistan. If Pakistan can successfully pick and chose the right combination of systems, sub-systems, and components, integrate them all in a highly effective functional fighter jet then that will be considered 100% success. Why people get entangled with pity things like manufacturing 100% components from the raw materials right in Pakistan? No one in world do that.

 

[Oscar]

The language used portrays an absolute decision and policy statement.

Pakistan China collaboration and cooperation happen at the highest levels of leadership. Do not undermine the leadership of the China and Pakistan with posts that sound like absolute decision and state policy of China while actually they are your personal opinions.

Be respectful to the two states, don’t create confusions and clearly use a language that shows it to be your opinion.

He does use a translation software so at times exact emotions or meanings cannot be conveyed by him to you or you to him.

Let's not overread into "lost in translation" mon ami.

He does have a valid point regarding China-Turkey relationships and inevitable impact on the balance Pakistan needs to do.

 

[Oscar]

why not go even easier.

Why dont we just bring the JF-17 in house...

we order nuts, bolts, seals etc. Why dont we start making as much as we can at home. modifying, designing, etc.

Because sourcing a local nut on contract requires the nut to be made to spec and consistent - Find a Pakistani factory to do that.
Then, you put the contract local you can at best charge 50% commission on top of it because somewhere someone will catch it and try to beat you.

Get a foreign supplier and you can charge 500% commission and can wedge yourself in as trusted supplier(with personal link backed guarantee for life)

 

[Michael]

Is the J-35A able to control UCAV/CCA?

Official reports did not mention its specific capabilities.

Official reports emphasized its extremely strong stealth capabilities and battlefield situational awareness. Therefore, we generally infer that it possesses limited UCAV/CCA command and control capabilities, but these capabilities cannot be compared to those of the J-20S.

==========================================

The MUM-T operational concept, consisting of UCAVs/CCAs and their command aircraft, is essentially a derivative of modern air combat systems. It's an extension of the concept of an air combat group composed of AEW&C aircraft and numerous manned fighter jets, where UCAVs/CCAs replace the manned fighters, and the command aircraft acts like a small, stealthy AEW&C.

In traditional air combat groups, the AEW&C itself is highly vulnerable and has extremely poor aerial maneuverability, requiring it to stay far from enemy fire. By miniaturizing its powerful battlefield situational awareness capabilities and integrating them into a stealth fighter, it can operate closer to the battlefield, leading a large number of UCAVs/CCAs deep into enemy territory for combat.

This is a brief and general explanation.

 

[FuturePAF]

Official reports did not mention its specific capabilities.

Official reports emphasized its extremely strong stealth capabilities and battlefield situational awareness. Therefore, we generally infer that it possesses limited UCAV/CCA command and control capabilities, but these capabilities cannot be compared to those of the J-20S.

==========================================

The MUM-T operational concept, consisting of UCAVs/CCAs and their command aircraft, is essentially a derivative of modern air combat systems. It's an extension of the concept of an air combat group composed of AEW&C aircraft and numerous manned fighter jets, where UCAVs/CCAs replace the manned fighters, and the command aircraft acts like a small, stealthy AEW&C.

In traditional air combat groups, the AEW&C itself is highly vulnerable and has extremely poor aerial maneuverability, requiring it to stay far from enemy fire. By miniaturizing its powerful battlefield situational awareness capabilities and integrating them into a stealth fighter, it can operate closer to the battlefield, leading a large number of UCAVs/CCAs deep into enemy territory for combat.

This is a brief and general explanation.

Any info on the expected sales price of the J-35A to the PAF?

 

[Michael]

Any info on the expected sales price of the J-35A to the PAF?

No information available.

My personal estimate: 600-800 million RMB

1. Theoretically, transactions between China and Brazil would be conducted in RMB. The exchange rate between the US dollar and the RMB fluctuates over time.
2. The earlier you purchase, the higher the price might be. ------ The production process affects production costs.

 

[Pakistanithinktank]

Honestly, if you end up with another "joint" project with China, then just save the time and money and buy more J-35A's.

If Pakistan wants to develop a local ability to design fast jets, then why not kick off a project to replace the K8? Or build something like the L-15 and build that solution at home? It will be less technically challenging and there is more opportunity for success. It will help train the required engineers, and it will develop a capability that Pakistan will need by the time the replacement is finished and K8s airframe hours run out ??? You can even make it stealthy if you want. Or a large stealthy UCAV as it will be more appropriate >

Good point, but trainers are required in far smaller numbers than frontline fighters. I don’t think Pakistan wants to locally develop a trainer. Pakistan will produce Turkish UCVA under license.

After the collapse of the AZM project, Pakistan’s PFX program shifted toward the medium weight category, larger than the JF-17, closer in size to the J-10C, yet designed with greater stealth features according to p.
As I mentioned two years ago, the concept could well resemble a double engine KAAN style design in medium weight class. Recall that Turkey originally unveiled three distinct KAAN configurations.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Because Pakistan seems to want to move up the value added chain, while seeking the Saudis fund it.

Pakistan has no foundations in aircraft design or engineering to "move up from". Nothing. Nada. There is no moving up, because there is no foundation in place. Why can't people see that ? The sheer concept that Pakistan can deliver a new fighter jet, is absurd. Truly. It will not happen because Pakistan, regardless of "Chinese" assistance, cannot do it. Pakistan can barely get its own UAV's with stable airframe designs to work, barely get its UAVs operational. PFX as a new design, is not going to happen.

 

[Ali_Baba]

In my humble opinion, kicking off a project to replace the K8 trainer will probably serve the sole purpose of achieving a solid capability to design and develop a training plane inhouse. Does Pakistan has the luxury of enough time to first complete a project for 100% manufacturing of a training jet in Pakistan and then initiate a 4.5G jet project, and after that becomes fruitful, launch a project for 5G fighter plane? I think answer would be a no.

The current approach that Pakistan is following in this regard is the most logical and offers the shortest critical path. PAF is trying to leverage whatever the critical knowhow learned from Thunder program and then embark upon more complex undertakings, such as working on semi stealth PFX and getting exposure to imported fifth gen plane (i.e. J-35) while developing/working on this type of tech (i.e. KAAN) in parallel.

The current Pakistani approach is the most illogical approach you can adopt to develop an aviation industry. Turkieye did it the correct way, the template is there to copy. Pakistan is trying to do it backward, and will fail.

Do not confuse Pakistan "needs" with its "technical abilities". They are two different things.

You don't need to produce every single net, bolt, screw, plastic, rubber, and other components 100% in Pakistan. If Pakistan can successfully pick and chose the right combination of systems, sub-systems, and components, integrate them all in a highly effective functional fighter jet then that will be considered 100% success. Why people get entangled with pity things like manufacturing 100% components from the raw materials right in Pakistan? No one in world do that.

No one here is getting involved in 100% of anything. The point, which is being lost on people is that it takes hundreds of engineers of various disciplines to design and build an airframe design and do all the integration of all the subsystems(even if all subsystems are purchased). Pakistan does not have that many aviation engineers that have done that "once", let alone can take the lead on aircraft design. The suggestion that Pakistan "can" fundamentally shows the lack of understanding of the sheer amount of intellectual knowledge required for that activity.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Good point, but trainers are required in far smaller numbers than frontline fighters. I don’t think Pakistan wants to locally develop a trainer. Pakistan will produce Turkish UCVA under license.

After the collapse of the AZM project, Pakistan’s PFX program shifted toward the medium weight category, larger than the JF-17, closer in size to the J-10C, yet designed with greater stealth features according to p.
As I mentioned two years ago, the concept could well resemble a double engine KAAN style design in medium weight class. Recall that Turkey originally unveiled three distinct KAAN configurations.


View attachment 164263

This picture is fantasy make believe, this will never happen regardless of orders from above, wishes or needs.

Which organisation in Pakistan is taking the lead on this, what are their credentials on this front ? Had Pakistan worked to develop an organisation who sole purpose was to grow into an aerospace design, hired lots of civilian engineers at various levels of their career including graduates and then got them to work on the JF17 project, then I could have "gotten on board" with the idea of PFX. However, Pakistan did not do that, it did not build an organisation with institutional knowledge, but instead used military officers who did it as projects on their career promotion roadmap. That approach has led to this situation where Pakistan has no organisation to do this type of project that is capable of pulling it off. That is why I am saying it is not going to happen.

People maybe wondering why I have posted on this particular topic so much, it is because the approach is madness. It is backwards and this will fail. Truly. The only thing I can think of, is the whole project is a scam to "pat-down" the Saudi's for money ?

 

[FuturePAF]

Pakistan has no foundations in aircraft design or engineering to "move up from". Nothing. Nada. There is no moving up, because there is no foundation in place. Why can't people see that ? The sheer concept that Pakistan can deliver a new fighter jet, is absurd. Truly. It will not happen because Pakistan, regardless of "Chinese" assistance, cannot do it. Pakistan can barely get its own UAV's with stable airframe designs to work, barely get its UAVs operational. PFX as a new design, is not going to happen.

This is true, but doesn’t mean PAC can’t start now. Let’s scale back the ambition and say it is just a modification of the JF-17 design (no internal bay); it still would mean considerable engineering work to create what would be a new design.

My only point is, if they can get the funding, the designs are out there, And engineers can be trained, facilities built, and the development process gone through. Sure there is a steep learning curve, but like any start up, if they have the funding and can get the talent, faculties and assistance, a known design can be redeveloped locally.