PAF F-16 | Discussions

It is simply the BEST multirole aircraft in the world currently (while contesting non-stealth scenarios) when you take the ability to carry out a multitude of operations, capabilities enhancements, serviceability and cost into consideration.
 
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It was funny to hear them talk about "having taken down an Erieye" and "F16s" in Sindoor.

You would have thought that their professional integrity meant something to them, and they would have decided to utter false made up claims etc...

The only thing they said that was correct, is that the PAF F16s were going to become alot smarter with these upgrades and there was a technical pathway to the D variants of the AMRAAMs with these changes.
Indian media is a clown-show. Their wishful thinking has no bounds. After repeated reverses at the hands of the PAF, they are trying their best to back-peddle and try to win the narrative as such, any or all outlandish claims (without an ounce of evidence) are thrown around.
Indian awam eats up this nonsense because the RSS/BJP programming has been so intense over the last 2 decades that they have no ability (and more so, no desire) left to ask hard questions.
 
10x
Indian awam eats up this nonsense because the RSS/BJP programming has been so intense over the last 2 decades that they have no ability (and more so, no desire) left to ask hard questions.
As per the KITAP, they perennially remain in delusion....

....Indeed, the disbelievers are only ˹lost˺ in delusion (67:20)
 
All of our Peacegate 1 F-16s (the original purchase) were MLU'd to blk52 specifications, radar, avionics and weapons.

Pakistan was approved for 60 kits to refurbish its PG1 F-16s and any additional A/Bs we were shopping around for then.

These kits included the following Blk-52 avionics including Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits:

  • APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar;
  • Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
  • AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
  • AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
  • Have Quick I/II Radios;
  • Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT);
  • SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability;
  • Reconnaissance pod capability;
  • Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (for training);

MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits;
  • 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
  • 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
  • 1 Unit Level Trainer;
  • 10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets.
Why number are 60 , so mean PAF is going to retire remaining 15 in coming years
 
So I did the relevant homework to my knee jerk reaction, and here's what I found:

US's FSM/EUM conditions of use upon PAF's F-16 Fleet can be conceptually broken down into 4 Tiers (based on weapons system available to Pakistan):
  1. A2A Weapons (authorized)
  2. Tactical A2S Weapons (authorized)
  3. Conventional Stand-Off / Deep Strike / Maritime Strike Weapons (restricted)
  4. Nuclear Weapons (restricted)
Source - 2006 congressional hearing on F-16 sale to Pakistan. The concerns raised by Congress were related to leakage of US tech to China, China/Pakistan tinkering the F-16 fleet for nuclear delivery and potential subsequent use of it. The DoD representative was clear on how those concerns were already mitigated in the terms and conditions specified in LOA.

Even if nuclear delivery was/is the concern - it doesn't apply to Harpoon missile, here's why:

After studying AGM-84 Harpoon in more depth, this is what I found out:
  1. Harpoon was never designed as a nuclear delivery system.
  2. Its warhead geometry, center-of-gravity constraints, fuzing logic, and structural and thermal limits make nuclear integration impractical per Physics.
  3. Integrating a nuclear warhead would require essentially redesigning the Harpoon, effectively creating a new missile.
  4. For Pakistan, any such modification, even in theory, is already restricted by US FMS/ITAR/EUM contacts.
Trivia: US EAR imposed a similar restriction for Conventional and Nuclear weapons export to India until 2005's 123 Agreement b/w the 2 countries - India began a major defense relation with the US, separated it's civil and military nuclear programs, and ever since has been receiving EAR concessions. Here's a recent example

However, the EAR concessions to India is related to civil nuclear programs and not military. So the restriction on Air Force variant of Harpoon for both Pakistan and India isn't based on the nuclear strike presumption but regulating the operational use case tied to delivery platform so as to maintain the power balance b/w Pakistan and India. Both Pakistan and India employ Harpoon on their naval assets, and if US is to provide airforce variant of Harpoon then it'd be for both countries but India doesn't operate a US aircraft.

Addressing your second assertion, by comparison, other exporters handle restrictions differently than US:
  1. France, similar to US, restricts the export of nuclear delivery systems per national and international laws e.g. French Defence Code, EU Common Position 2008/944/CFSP, MTCR, NPT, NSG, and etc. - and polices any attempt to adapt/integrate domestic nuclear missiles with their aircraft (inferred from the laws mentioned and evident from refusal to share source code for Rafales with India) - However, subject to same laws, prior licensing and approval, France does allows the export of conventional stand-off/deep/maritime strike weapons. And, any conventional weapons system once licensed and sold aren't operationally policed as evident from the use case of SCALP-EG from Dassault aircraft by India.
  2. Russia and China, similar to France, allow the export of conventional stand-off/deep/maritime strike weapons under license and approval, and do not operationally police these systems once sold. Similarly both Russia and China restrict the export of nuclear delivery system, however, there are nuances involved and their restrictions aren't explicit as in the case of the West.
  3. Russia adheres to Wassenaar Arrangement and Federal Law No. 183-FZ (Military-Technical Cooperation), and doesn't sell any nuclear delivery system itself but also doesn't restrict cooperation as evident from use case of BrahMos (dual capable) with Sukhoi aircraft. BrahMos is an India-Russia joint development, both countries acknowledge its dual capability, yet Russia helped India on BrahMos's integration on Sukhoi by sharing the architectural source code of the aircraft. So in practice, Russia is showing "no concern" if not implicitly permitting the use of its aircraft for nuclear strike.
  4. Similar to Russia, China has recently reinforced it's export laws concerning the dual-use materials (source) However, JF-17 is a joint development of Pakistan/China and being adapted (if not already) for nuclear delivery system (for Pakistan). Moreover, though the authorized level of integration on J-10CE is not publicly disclosed, it's not operationally policed by China (at least on offensive roles and A2A strikes as evident from use case in May 2025).
So contrary to your earlier assertion Russia and China are already showing least concern and implicitly permitting their systems to be used for nuclear delivery in practice (albeit project specific) in contrast to the West.

And yes, the US places Pakistan’s F-16s in a strict operational straightjacket (as described by @Ali_Baba), this restriction is more directed at operational control, maintaining the regional power balance, and keeping the escalation ladder b/w Pakistan and India in check for US supplied systems - rather than a direct restriction only concerning nuclear strike capability of either. Hence, all the more reason to transition from US systems to alternatives such as Chinese platforms, especially as India benefits from French and Russian support for advanced tech and delivery systems.

Note:
not an argument against the capability of F-16 but rather highlighting the restrictions it comes with.

@Ibbi32
There is an incident that occurred in the 80s with a visiting PLAAF General to Sargodha with US personnel present supporting the nacent F-16 deployment.
Suffice to say the PLAAF General immediately started doing “measurements” on the aircraft which caused some concern to the GD personnel there.

Pakistan’s restrictions are not just due to nuclear aspects but the Chinese angle- everything from carting off the tomahawks to alleged F-16 accident airframes being studied by the Chinese exist. The result is you have much more controls than your typical F-16 user.

But, whose fault is that.
So while there are no kill codes. Crypto keys are generated with knowledge of US attache and if you try to access the Sniper pods beyond the basic maintenance a little alert goes off in an office somewhere.
 
Question is are we getting something extra for block 52 plus or not in this deal ... Which can lead future possible V updates
 
But, whose fault is that.
So while there are no kill codes. Crypto keys are generated with knowledge of US attache and if you try to access the Sniper pods beyond the basic maintenance a little alert goes off in an office somewhere.

That I totally agree with and why I used the congressional hearing as the core premise for my argument against the nuclear strike presumption.

However, today the same restrictions apply, and I have even opined in a previous post that unless US is ready to make make concession to the restrictions more F-16s may not be procured.

What's the point of having a toy you can't play with the way you want? The "mistake" committed in the past, since you are mentioning the 80s incident, wasn't the last one either - so at a strategic crossroad we find ourselves today why not just go with the original plan (unless phase 1 of it is still ongoing)?
 
There is an incident that occurred in the 80s with a visiting PLAAF General to Sargodha with US personnel present supporting the nacent F-16 deployment.
Suffice to say the PLAAF General immediately started doing “measurements” on the aircraft which caused some concern to the GD personnel there.

Pakistan’s restrictions are not just due to nuclear aspects but the Chinese angle- everything from carting off the tomahawks to alleged F-16 accident airframes being studied by the Chinese exist. The result is you have much more controls than your typical F-16 user.

But, whose fault is that.
So while there are no kill codes. Crypto keys are generated with knowledge of US attache and if you try to access the Sniper pods beyond the basic maintenance a little alert goes off in an office somewhere.
Interesting,

regarding crypto keys, can you elaborate more on it? Like what exactly it is and why is it used? We need crypto keys to access the SNIPER pods every time to establish communication with them?

Regarding F-16 airframes and tomahawks, the thing is, Chinese are so far ahead now that it is the other way now......J-35s in Pakistan would need restrictions from prying eyes of Americans or anyone associated with them....since most likely PAF will be the only airforce to field a 5th Gen Chinese aircraft outside of China itself. I think this was also the reason even a lone J-10CE was not allowed to fly to RIAT or Dubai Airshow even though it was the star performer in May 7 battle....... in 5-10 years, American tech secrecy wouldn't matter a bit. What the basic fundamental design cues Chinese needed have now been surpassed and improved within their own industrial complex.
 
That I totally agree with and why I used the congressional hearing as the core premise for my argument against the nuclear strike presumption.

However, today the same restrictions apply, and I have even opined in a previous post that unless US is ready to make make concession to the restrictions more F-16s may not be procured.

What's the point of having a toy you can't play with the way you want? The "mistake" committed in the past, since you are mentioning the 80s incident, wasn't the last one either - so at a strategic crossroad we find ourselves today why not just go with the original plan (unless phase 1 of it is still ongoing)?
not sure what exact profession background you are from........but thats how normally it happens....OEMs dont want their products being worked upon by other OEMs and anyone other than the OEM itself. And it can be due to various reasons......in case of weapons it is of course diplomatic and security and espionage........

Have you ever heard where you can swap out automotive parts from one OEM on the other? Even though the part might be doing the exact same function?

In industrial settings even, OEMs restrict what the end user can do.....and sometimes thats for the benefit of end user itself to not screw something up.

F-16s are sold as a package and a commitment. If you modify them, you are reneging on your own words and digging deeper into trouble.
 
not sure what exact profession background you are from........but thats how normally it happens....OEMs dont want their products being worked upon by other OEMs and anyone other than the OEM itself. And it can be due to various reasons......in case of weapons it is of course diplomatic and security and espionage........

Have you ever heard where you can swap out automotive parts from one OEM on the other? Even though the part might be doing the exact same function?

In industrial settings even, OEMs restrict what the end user can do.....and sometimes thats for the benefit of end user itself to not screw something up.

F-16s are sold as a package and a commitment. If you modify them, you are reneging on your own words and digging deeper into trouble.

I am not talking about modification 🥲
 
That I totally agree with and why I used the congressional hearing as the core premise for my argument against the nuclear strike presumption.

However, today the same restrictions apply, and I have even opined in a previous post that unless US is ready to make make concession to the restrictions more F-16s may not be procured.

What's the point of having a toy you can't play with the way you want? The "mistake" committed in the past, since you are mentioning the 80s incident, wasn't the last one either - so at a strategic crossroad we find ourselves today why not just go with the original plan (unless phase 1 of it is still ongoing)?
First impressions and all that. But once bitten twice shy. Regardless of most of what could be offered on the V to Pakistan being technologically “redundant” to Chinese wants - what has been enshrined in congressional memory cannot be erased overnight save for El Trumperino’s override.
 
Interesting,

regarding crypto keys, can you elaborate more on it? Like what exactly it is and why is it used? We need crypto keys to access the SNIPER pods every time to establish communication with them?

Regarding F-16 airframes and tomahawks, the thing is, Chinese are so far ahead now that it is the other way now......J-35s in Pakistan would need restrictions from prying eyes of Americans or anyone associated with them....since most likely PAF will be the only airforce to field a 5th Gen Chinese aircraft outside of China itself. I think this was also the reason even a lone J-10CE was not allowed to fly to RIAT or Dubai Airshow even though it was the star performer in May 7 battle....... in 5-10 years, American tech secrecy wouldn't matter a bit. What the basic fundamental design cues Chinese needed have now been surpassed and improved within their own industrial complex.
The present has little relevance to what has happened in the past. It’s on record.
Regardless of whether you are a law abiding citizen”friend” of the US they wont forget that you “cheated” on them just as you don’t forget they “cheated” on you.
 
because when iraq 'played with' their F-16s, they ended up leaving spanners inside engines etc.

we need them approvals

Funny what the Iraqis did.

Again, "play with" was meant to be analogous to "operational use" not "modification"
 
Funny what the Iraqis did.

Again, "play with" was meant to be analogous to "operational use" not "modification"
they didnt even modify- they tried to maintain w/o contractor support.
 

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