Pakistan-India Conflict 2025: News Updates and Discussion

[Falcon26]

Not dozens of satellite images of frontline PAF bases but I get your point now. I think @Starlord is right about closing this thread because our difference in thinking is about importance of perception vs reality. You think perception is more important whereas for me actual destruction of target is enough.

Good conversations all around. Thanks for being gracious enough to engage us. Differences of opinion will exist, but we appreciate the time you have devoted to the discussion and for bringing your perspectives and insights. It’s not everyday members get to interact with PAF veterans.

Cheers.

 

[AeronautIR]

1. No one here said the IAF downed a PAF jet. That was never even on the table.

Instead, we're all here disputing whether BuM was actually as successful as ISPR is making it out to be, and we're saying that the proof for that claim wasn't there. Rather, the Indians lined up lots of proof about being able to hit PAF air bases with their missiles -- we did not show anything to support our claims. Do you see the problem?

I don't know what ISPR is making of BuM as per your claims. I just know PAF achieved the targets and have complete BDA through multiple sources. Whether or not that evidence will be shared with public,I have absolutely no idea.

2. Yes, and besides multiple Tejas production lines, India also makes much, much more of the Su-30MKI indigenously than we do with the JF-17. Indians have much more proof of their work on the AMCA than we do with the PFX.

Again, don't take offense but this is a wrong comparison. We will digress from the topic if I start talking about IAF 2-front doctrine and requirement of 42 squadrons. They ordered 12 Su-30MKI in 2020 and they are nowhere to be seen. I can produce more JF if I need. AMCA was announced in 2008 and it is still on paper only. I am sure you know timeline of Tejas that it started in 1983.

3. We honestly don't give a sh!t about the Indian military; we care about Indian warfighting, which is derived from their growing industrial footprint.

It's much easier to fix leadership than to create an industry, and the Indians have mastered the latter. Not only that, but India has the killer instinct within to produce strong leaders, who WILL use the existing industrial capacity to screw us if we're not careful.

Again, I don't know what this all means. You have some unresolved anger about leadership and though you have every right to your views, the manifestation is wrong because I don't see that military industrial complex in India to which you are pointing. Pakistan is a far smaller economy and can't match India quantitatively. But the delays in Indian projects are huge and that is why I don't believe your comment about they can screw us using existing industrial capacity.

 

[AeronautIR]

The Swift Retort thread ran for 3 years on much less drama -

I am new here guess I will learn about this drama in due time.

 

[Bilal]

Kindly tell me that basic argument.

Let me take the liberty (at risk of mistakes)

1/ the argument has evolved from the initial discussion on indian capability/capacity to knock out all
PAF bases. People are discussing something else which will follow in below point(s).

2/ air to air success is not being questioned or challenged

3/ the argument is that the claims of ground target destruction should have been qualified with proper BDA for the world to see. Why?

a/ because while Indian government and military may know full well about these damages. They themselves are hostage to indian public opinion.

b/ in Indian public opinion due to lack of clear satellite BDA images no such damage happened on their side and they are celebrating it as victory.

c/ this has led to a breakdown of deterrence since the deciding factor (Indian public opinion and pressure) has not been dissuaded by clear and undeniable evidence to show the cost they suffered and will suffer if the continue their jingoistic madness.

d/ And to establish that there is an equal or heavier price to pay (vis a vis their ground installations) and the reality is not what they think, i.e., they can’t carry out action against Pakistan unscathed. In fact, they will suffer equal or greater losses.

 

[AeronautIR]

Good conversations all around. Thanks for being gracious enough to engage us. Differences of opinion will exist, but we appreciate the time you have devoted to the discussion and for bringing your perspectives and insights. It’s not everyday members get to interact with PAF veterans.

Cheers.

I also want to thank you for explaining that argument. For me, completing the mission is enough so maybe that's the reason I don't feel that strongly about not releasing the imagery.
Anyway, the decision to release the BDA evidence is above my pay-grade. Let's see if it is made public at some point or not.
Take care

 

[AeronautIR]

Let me take the liberty (at risk of mistakes)

1/ the argument has evolved from the initial discussion on indian capability/capacity to knock out all
PAF bases. People are discussing something else which will follow in below point(s).

2/ air to air success is not being questioned or challenged

3/ the argument is that the claims of ground target destruction should have been qualified with proper BDA for the world to see. Why?

a/ because while Indian government and military may know full well about these damages. They themselves are hostage to indian public opinion.

b/ in Indian public opinion due to lack of clear satellite BDA images no such damage happened on their side and they are celebrating it as victory.

c/ this has led to a breakdown of deterrence since the deciding factor (Indian public opinion and pressure) has not been dissuaded by clear and undeniable evidence to show the cost they suffered and will suffer if the continue their jingoistic madness.

d/ And to establish that there is an equal or heavier price to pay (vis a vis their ground installations) and the reality is not what they think, i.e., they can’t carry out action against Pakistan unscathed. In fact, they will suffer equal or greater losses.

Excellent I was still waiting to wrap up point 1 since yesterday.
The argument isn't about Brahmos threat anymore but BDA evidence.

 

[Bilal]

Excellent I was still waiting to wrap up point 1 since yesterday.
The argument isn't about Brahmos threat anymore but BDA evidence.

Yes. That discussion has been wrapped up. Your point pretty much well taken. (But expect it to pop up again in the future).

And yes, welcome to PDF (again)

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

Excellent I was still waiting to wrap up point 1 since yesterday.
The argument isn't about Brahmos threat anymore but BDA evidence.

I have two questions
First, you hinted that IAF mission on may 7 was throw bomb but what were they doing for around 1 hour in air when we shoot them down? Very interesting which initially cross my mind but later i thought maybe they were overconfident that they can get kills in a-to-a as well? Whats your source is telling why didnt they went back after releasing payload?

Second, and more relevant for you how can we counter or can counter in future their long range ALCMs like scalp EG and brahmos when their aircraft can be well behind 200 km inside border? And their air defence like s400 ready to hit any intrusion? We cannot stop them from ALCM? Or can we?

 

[AeronautIR]

Yes. That discussion has been wrapped up. Your point pretty much well taken. (But expect it to pop up again in the future).

And yes, welcome to PDF (again)

Thank you, trying to navigate through it by learning quickly. Though I must appreciate your post once again. That to the point break down made it easy for me because deciphering facts which are wrapped in emotional outbursts is not my strong suit.

 

[Bilal]

Thank you, trying to navigate through it by learning quickly. Though I must appreciate your post once again. That to the point break down made it easy for me because deciphering facts which are wrapped in emotional outbursts is not my strong suit.

My pleasure brother.

 

[side-winder]

Excellent I was still waiting to wrap up point 1 since yesterday.
The argument isn't about Brahmos threat anymore but BDA evidence.

Getting back to the point of brahmos threat and can it disable the PAF bases.

Yes, they have it in large numbers but can they launch in large numbers at a certain time? No -- so it's a threat if the conflict sustains for a longer period.

PAF bases can absorb 10-15 direct hits and can still keep generating the response. The ORI at bases makes sure of it. I guess no one here has really experienced the rigorous audit and inspection that is done for all bases -- except you, i and perhaps only a couple others

On the events of 10th may part, it's totally fair for the people who only have OSINT as their source of information to have doubts and be skeptical. It's totally fine. In fact, i would appreciate the fact that we have people with ability to think rationally with available evidence -- so it's best to move on from this point.

 

[Bilal]

I guess no one here has really experienced the rigorous audit and inspection that is done for all bases

What’s the military equivalent to Business continuity management?

Getting back to the point of brahmos threat and can it disable the PAF bases.

You shouldn’t have brought it up so soon. It was sealed in box and sent away for far future and you opened the box.

 

[AeronautIR]

I have two questions
First, you hinted that IAF mission on may 7 was throw bomb but what were they doing for around 1 hour in air when we shoot them down? Very interesting which initially cross my mind but later i thought maybe they were overconfident that they can get kills in a-to-a as well? Whats your source is telling why didnt they went back after releasing payload?

Second, and more relevant for you how can we counter or can counter in future their long range ALCMs like scalp EG and brahmos when their aircraft can be well behind 200 km inside border? And their air defence like s400 ready to hit any intrusion? We cannot stop them from ALCM? Or can we?

I was part of a veteran's group that visited NASTP, cyber command and NIIAOC recently. We were briefed in the ops room and the answer to your question was displayed to us on the screen. The IAF packages, especially the one in Punjab, was again and again trying to ingress towards Lahore area. It was clear as day that they wanted to establish a TARCAP inside Pakistani territory. That was their actual mission under the pretext of bombing so called terrorist camps.

About 2nd question, we are improving our layered IADS with more SHORADS so interception rate will improve. Now, I don't know you believe me or not, but the S-400 umbrella is no more effective and we already know about our BVR advantage. It won't be easy for them to launch in numbers.

 

[Meengla]

Didn't know where to post it but can't deprive this forum the great fun watching our favorite Indian General Bakshi ranting about Pakistan in his latest video. English captions available. Enjoy!

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[AeronautIR]

Getting back to the point of brahmos threat and can it disable the PAF bases.

Yes, they have it in large numbers but can they launch in large numbers at a certain time? No -- so it's a threat if the conflict sustains for a longer period.

PAF bases can absorb 10-15 direct hits and can still keep generating the response. The ORI at bases makes sure of it. I guess no one here has really experienced the rigorous audit and inspection that is done for all bases -- except you, i and perhaps only a couple others

On the events of 10th may part, it's totally fair for the people who only have OSINT as their source of information to have doubts and be skeptical. It's totally fine. In fact, i would appreciate the fact that we have people with ability to think rationally with available evidence -- so it's best to move on from this point.

Thank you very much. I have absolutely no problem with people having different views and not agreeing with me on any topic.
But I was not able to follow the conversation because it went from objective realities to venting out emotional frustrations very quickly.