PTI News, Updates and Discussion

[Jango]

Indeed. The middle class did believe in what he promised 100%. But he was able to deliver none of what he promised. So either he knowingly over-promised, or simply failed. It is time to accept one of those two unsavory possibilities.

Hard to judge when you got booted out after 3 years because the COAS had an issue with you not towing his line all the time, don't you think.

Successes or failures are judged by elections, not political upheavals performed by ISI.

Even now, they are insisting on a path that is not likely to lead yo any improvement in their overall chances of getting back into power.

Yes, I'd rather you remain on the right side and call a wrong a wrong, rather than be a weasel only for power, ala Nawaz Sharif or Zardari. Ham log usay smart kehte hain, syasat kehte hain, aik Zardari sab par bhari, while in reality it's beghairti.

The very fact that this country calls people like Zardari cunning, smart, politically able, and fantasize his politics, while in reality it's nothing but thuggery, bribery, corruption, and blackmail, should tell you all you need to know about our morals and principles.

Surely, a group that was smart enough to capture the imaginations of the middle class so successfully, should be able to come up with a better plan going forward as well, instead of persisting with the mistakes that led them here to begin with.

Yeah maybe that group isn't anywhere in the picture right now? Because they are in jail or on the run? Woah congratulations...maybe now you realize that is what the establishment wanted!

Oh, and you ban all meetings with IK in jail with his party, and yet expect him to come up with a coherent political strategy. Unbelievable.

 

[ghazi52]

 

[Meengla]

I believe that IK is indeed wise and knows exactly what he is doing. Let him. He is also responsible for the outcomes of the decisions that he chooses to make.

'Wise'? Ask anyone privately in his top leadership--whether jailed or free--how Imran's actions, driven by his mighty ego, has caused their party's fortunes to plummet to the depth of no way out in the foreseeable future.
But you are right: He is solely responsible for his decisions and consequences--as he is finding out.

 

[VCheng]

Hard to judge when you got booted out after 3 years because the COAS had an issue with you not towing his line all the time, don't you think.

3 years is not a full term, yes, but it is also enough time to deliver on at least some, if not many, of the things IK promised. There was much that could have been done without a direct confrontation with the COAS, but IK decided to go after bigger things that he could not handle just halfway though his first term, and eliminated any chances of building enough foundation for a second term, which could have had more momentum.

One does not run before learning how to walk.

Yes, I'd rather you remain on the right side and call a wrong a wrong,

Yes, and I do: The military is absolutely wrong in its supra-Constitutional illegal usurpation of power that places it above all accountability. The real question here is the wisdom to formulate a viable plan against such an entrenched and powerful adversary.

The very fact that this country calls people like Zardari cunning, smart, politically able, and fantasize his politics, while in reality it's nothing but thuggery, bribery, corruption, and blackmail, should tell you all you need to know about our morals and principles.

And yet this is the same nation that IK and PTI wished to lead and solve corruption in 90 days? Did they really think it would be that easy?

Yeah maybe that group isn't anywhere in the picture right now? Because they are in jail or on the run?

And do you think their own choices had a role to play in putting them in such a disadvantaged position?

Oh, and you ban all meetings with IK in jail with his party, and yet expect him to come up with a coherent political strategy.

His family can meet as provided by rules, but prisoners cannot expect to be able to conduct political campaigns while behind bars.

Besides, surely PTI must be bigger than just one person. There were enough wise PTI leaders outside of jail to formulate a strategy that could help, but even they chose to follow Pied Piper into the river. What a pity.

 

[Meengla]

Hard to judge when you got booted out after 3 years because the COAS had an issue with you not towing his line all the time, don't you think.

I guess the 'same page' fell apart, eh?! BTW, Imran only turned his guns against the Army Chief when the Chief decided to wash his hands off supporting the failing Project Imran. You may benefit from reading Dawn.com archives going into 2022. Otherwise, well, plenty of evidence that Imran was willing to lick the Chief's feet to stay in power.

Successes or failures are judged by elections, not political upheavals performed by ISI.

Picking and choosing! So the Parliamentary requirement of the No Confidence Motion was not 'elections' per the Constitution??

 

[VCheng]

'Wise'? Ask anyone privately in his top leadership--whether jailed or free--how Imran's actions, driven by his mighty ego, has caused their party's fortunes to plummet to the depth of no way out in the foreseeable future.
But you are right: He is solely responsible for his decisions and consequences--as he is finding out.

I will give IK enough leeway to say that maybe he knows more than others in deciding what is the best way forward. And we agree that he remains responsible for the path forward that he wishes to take himself, his party and his followers upon. The consequences will show us all whether he chose well, or not.

 

[Meengla]

There was much that could have been done without a direct confrontation with the COAS, but IK decided to go after bigger things that he could not handle just halfway though his first term,

Imran's focus was destroying his political opponents and that's not surprising given how he has made his political party into an absolute cult with no room for course correction and dissent or even a protege. The PM Imran, despite having the ISI robbing the elections from his opponents and incarcerating their leadership, wanted to totally destroy his opponents who were already on their knees. Imran's plan was for a ten-year tenure, working with some top Generals, to fix Pakistan as he saw fit.
Those of us who had seen him as a cricketer in the 70s and 80s shouldn't be surprised by his arrogance and authoratianism especially when he tasted power backed by the military starting 2011.

 

[VCheng]

Imran's focus was destroying his political opponents and that's not surprising given how he has made his political party into an absolute cult with no room for course correction and dissent or even a protege. The PM Imran, despite having the ISI robbing the elections from his opponents and incarcerating their leadership, wanted to totally destroy his opponents who were already on their knees. Imran's plan was for a ten-year tenure, working with some top Generals, to fix Pakistan as he saw fit.
Those of us who had seen him as a cricketer in the 70s and 80s shouldn't be surprised by his arrogance and authoratianism especially when he tasted power backed by the military starting 2011.

Well, IK took the decisions he thought were best. And now he also has the responsibility for the consequences of the decisions that he took.

I see no problem with that, either.

 

[Jango]

I guess the 'same page' fell apart, eh?! BTW, Imran only turned his guns against the Army Chief when the Chief decided to wash his hands off supporting the failing Project Imran. You may benefit from reading Dawn.com archives going into 2022. Otherwise, well, plenty of evidence that Imran was willing to lick the Chief's feet to stay in power.

Mate, I've seen that time up close, so I don't really need to read articles on what was happening. Chief had a problem with him from day one, but he let it go keh dekh lain gay agay, and due to other "majboorian". It eventually came to a head when IK also wanted to give input for the ISI position. The same page was more like we have the same book in mind.

Picking and choosing! So the Parliamentary requirement of the No Confidence Motion was not 'elections' per the Constitution??

If you consider kidnapping and bribing and blackmailing MNA's to get a vote of your choice as a fair election, then sure!

 

[Jango]

3 years is not a full term, yes, but it is also enough time to deliver on at least some, if not many, of the things IK promised. There was much that could have been done without a direct confrontation with the COAS, but IK decided to go after bigger things that he could not handle just halfway though his first term, and eliminated any chances of building enough foundation for a second term, which could have had more momentum.

One does not run before learning how to walk.

So you remove a government by kidnapping MNA's? Are you people even listening to yourself?

Many were delivered. WACOG, solar initiatives for residential users, power renegotiations, hydro power projects, (all the Islamabad projects that you see being inaugurated by Shehbaz Sharif and Mohsin Naqvi these days were started in PTI tenure), housing schemes, revised pension schemes, health insurance, and on on and on. Sure, there might have been hiccups in implementations, but alot of things were in motion.

No one's saying it was all milk and honey, but NOTHING gives a fauji the right to get an elected government packing home.

Yes, and I do: The military is absolutely wrong in its supra-Constitutional illegal usurpation of power that places it above all accountability. The real question here is the wisdom to formulate a viable plan against such an entrenched and powerful adversary.

Again, same thing, I cannot repeat it again and again.

And yet this is the same nation that IK and PTI wished to lead and solve corruption in 90 days? Did they really think it would be that easy?

How is that relevant to anything at all?

And do you think their own choices had a role to play in putting them in such a disadvantaged position?

Of course, but had their choices been in an electoral strategy, or governance strategy, or anything else, I would have agreed with you. But you expect a person to keep getting punched and abused, and then still play goodie two shoes. That doesn't happen in real life.

His family can meet as provided by rules, but prisoners cannot expect to be able to conduct political campaigns while behind bars.

No, even his family can't. Nawaz Sharif used to meet 80 people every Thursday in jail jbtw.

And while we are on prison rules, can we also discuss the sham case, the sham prosecution, the sham witnesses?

Or are we only selectively applying the law here where we see it fit?

Besides, surely PTI must be bigger than just one person. There were enough wise PTI leaders outside of jail to formulate a strategy that could help, but even they chose to follow Pied Piper into the river. What a pity.

Such as...?

SMQ, jail. Yasmin Rashid, jail. Hammad Azhar, on the run. Pervez Khattak, turned. Murad Saeed, on the run. Please tell me who from the functional core committee is now present?

Come on man. IK koi farishta nhn hai, but don't be this intellectually dishonest.

 

[Meengla]

It eventually came to a head when IK also wanted to give input for the ISI position.

Ahh, so it was not 'the Cypher' or the Americans who toppled Imran?!! You know, the Caliph of Riyasat e Medina brilliantly duped Pakistanis by appealing to their Anti Americanism for a year for his ouster. Such a 'Sadiq and Ameen' guy, a role model for the New Pakistan!! But I am sure you'd have excuses for his lying about Americans too.

If you consider kidnapping and bribing and blackmailing MNA's to get a vote of your choice as a fair election, then sure!

I think you are referring to the 2018 elections where the military literally armtwisted smaller parties like MQM to support Imran's position in the Parliament. Don't believe me: Ask any MQM and other parties people.

You see: You keep making excuses for the terrible choices Imran made but your excuses simply don't convince anyone except maybe the most diehard Cultists of Imran.

 

[Jango]

Ahh, so it was not 'the Cypher' or the Americans who toppled Imran?!! You know, the Caliph of Riyasat e Medina brilliantly duped Pakistanis by appealing to their Anti Americanism for a year for his ouster. Such a 'Sadiq and Ameen' guy, a role model for the New Pakistan!! But I am sure you'd have excuses for his lying about Americans too.

I think you are referring to the 2018 elections where the military literally armtwisted smaller parties like MQM to support Imran's position in the Parliament. Don't believe me: Ask any MQM and other parties people.

Yeah...once they got into the parliament...to make a government. And it was more anti-N sentiment at that time rather than pro-IK, at least for a large part of the think tank of the time. Similar to now TBH, it's more the hate for IK than love for N in the establishment (well some of them do love Shahbaz though ).

You see: You keep making excuses for the terrible choices Imran made but your excuses simply don't convince anyone except maybe the most diehard Cultists of Imran.

No one's making any excuses for IK or PTI. But don't worry, fauji apologists won't ever get it, because baki poora mulk un kay liay choontion ki tarah hai.

 

[VCheng]

No one's saying it was all milk and honey, but NOTHING gives a fauji the right to get an elected government packing home.

Agreed 100%.

It was wrong when NS (Edit: not NS, but Abbasi) was removed to install IK by those tactics. And it was wrong when IK was removed to install SS by those tactics.

Equally.

Again, same thing, I cannot repeat it again and again.

Neither can I.

How is that relevant to anything at all?

It shows a failure of the leadership to understand the nation they are trying to lead, at the very least, or even intentionally lying about what they could achieve to mislead people into supporting them, at worst.

Of course, but had their choices been in an electoral strategy, or governance strategy, or anything else, I would have agreed with you. But you expect a person to keep getting punched and abused, and then still play goodie two shoes. That doesn't happen in real life.

Exactly. Those who tried to play cute goody two shoes got beat up. That is indeed real life.

No, even his family can't.

Because his family is trying to make a political circus out of those visits. Remember the "shahadat, shahadat, shahadat" slogans raised by his sisters? Why?

SMQ, jail. Yasmin Rashid, jail. Hammad Azhar, on the run. Pervez Khattak, turned. Murad Saeed, on the run. Please tell me who from the functional core committee is now present?

They still have the KP CM. And SMQ is out. You play chess with the pieces you have left on the board, not the ones you lost by using a failing strategy.

 

[Meengla]

Yeah...once they got into the parliament...to make a government. And it was more anti-N sentiment at that time rather than pro-IK, at least for a large part of the think tank of the time. Similar to now TBH, it's more the hate for IK than love for N in the establishment (well some of them do love Shahbaz though

You see, your understanding of Pakistani politics is so bad. Just look at the bolded parts in your quoted post. PTI is a threat to MQM, was a threat, and will be a threat. The Noonies are not a threat to MQM--they are kind of natural allies against the PPP.
But you start with a blind love for Imran and so you end up with absurd arguments while giving slap on the wrist to Imran by saying meaningless 'Imran is not an angel but...' kind of arguments.
But who am I to disabuse you of your delusions. You and the blogspace can try as much as you want to but Imran's fortunes are not getting any better. The idiot has sunk his own boat. My words don't matter.

 

[VCheng]

Imran's fortunes are not getting any better. The idiot has sunk his own boat. My words don't matter.

But IK's decisions do matter. It is up to him to decide as he wants, and bear the good and the bad consequences that arise from those choices he makes.