Pakistan-India Conflict 2025: News Updates and Discussion

[JamD]

we take the offensive from the start and knock out their missile TELs as they're mobilizing.

which is the plan of military high command who hasn't gotten drunk on ISPR koolaid. Just see Khalid Kidwai's statements. All of these forum claims are (hopefully) just noise that hasn't percolated to our actual decision makers at actually serious ranks.

 

[Oscar]

The PAF got the better of the Indians on the opening night, but they did pivot their strategy and showcased how they can erode our defensive posture via BrahMos strikes.

The next time the Indians want to ratchet up the situation, they likely won't bank on the IAF but, instead, launch preemptive missile strikes in mass against us. They know they can break through our IADS with just enough scale, so they'll leverage that and hit the PAF while it's on the ground.

Indians win when they fight like snakes, like they had in 1971. It'll be the same the next time UNLESS we take the offensive from the start and knock out their missile TELs as they're mobilizing.

Yet there is that unknown tripwire of "What is their tolerance threshold".

The three biggest issues I see are:

1. Decision Loops: This is an unknown to all of us. If you see recent clips of US SOCOM types or even interviews of pilots from Desert Storm - there is one part of it that is common, everyone knew their job but the execution differs from experience to ability.
The SOCOM for e.g. if you see their comms, responses in comms and even what they discuss while under fire - it is less hollywood and more brief callouts, discussing last nights dinner and relying on near muscle memory. The same could be applied to pilots - there are those who do better in exercises and then apply it in pressure and those who do not, but the best know by instinct when to notch, where to look and when and those that remember most of it and then those that may not.

THIS IS GREAT BUT - can the same be said on a leadership level? When I read AFM and write ups on ACM being in ops room, guiding everything that sounds all good but(and not from a Judge but analyze view) was every decision he was taking being made with the best and latest info? Was every decision within the right OODA loop clock or were loops skipped and opportunities lost? Did every pilot in the air do their jobs exactly? We dont know this as an unknown but when air forces that have overwhelming technological and numerical superiority still make operational mistakes - a AEW controller misses a near collision etc. Then while we hold PAF to the highest standard we must factor in the hard realities of Pakistani economy, general culture as @HemlockKhalid/AeronautIR is pointing out and the overall scenario.

2. Leadership Cohesion: Now go beyond PAF into the overall Pakistani leadership - Was(as is claimed) the FM in the same loop as ACM or CNS? Was it a loop of "I trust you" or "DONT DO THIS OR DO THAT"?
Was it a regularly pinged line or was it FM more making calls, SS and PMLN ringing their phone and ringing back?
We know now of the conflict and chaos in the initial hours of 2019 as those in favor of backing down went at loggerheads with those wanting a response.

3. No Plan survives contact with the Enemy: India found this out rather well - Plans work when everyone in the team knows how to execute them within their systems. The IAF failed as a system on the first day but other systems did not. Their IACCS seems to have worked at least in knowing emissions baiting by PAF and when to simply hold back.
The Brahmos launches were well coordinated and were also rotating @side-winder (can confirm)
Perhaps BuM had systems within that plan that worked and some that plainly didnt. Systems not working means there is a gap in training, in practicing execution and those nodes need to be tied up. You work on a limited budget, to assume you can make everything even is folly and shows a novice approach.

Having worked in both Project Management and front line solutions - there are times you pick and choose which battles to fight - instead of going feature to feature you focus on differentiating on a few and then you focus on the execution of the value messaging with it. Pakistan needs to do the same and those asking for different are in my view unfortunately in Lalaland from an understanding of resources(which includes the most important ones called Pakistanis) and environment.

 

[AeronautIR]

which is the plan of military high command who hasn't gotten drunk on ISPR koolaid. Just see Khalid Kidwai's statements. All of these forum claims are (hopefully) just noise that hasn't percolated to our actual decision makers at actually serious ranks.

Gen Khalid Kidwai's statements about India failed to achieve any objective, or some other statement?

 

[Falcon26]

Yeah let’s kill as many civilians in ‘urban centres’ as we can and then see where that goes. So how many Pakistani civilians including women and children you also condemning to death with your keyboard bravery?

By urban centers I meant military targets near major urban centers so the Indian population that beats the drums of war experience what war is. Not deliberately targeting civilians which is a war crime. Pakistan also should designate Shiv Sena, and other far right Hindu nationalists as terrorists and target them if India targets Pakistani citizens in Pakistan.

But you wouldn’t comprehend this because you an immature clown who’s interested in laughing emojis and making corny comments.

 

[Falcon26]

The amount of times indians change their goal post, wont be surprised if Pakistan provided public domain satellite picture like Ukraine did of destroyed Russian S400 the indians would probably say that only trucks were destroyed.
View attachment 167269

How come Pakistan didn’t provide such evidence for the supposed s-400 kills?

 

[puttputt]

Now I am getting a bit tired of this hypothesis about Indians can destroy us next time.
They can't. We inflicted more damage on them and it doesn't matter who believes it or not.

It's not a 'hypothesis' but an inference based on an assessment of objective reality.

The objective reality being X number of BrahMos, SCALPs, etc., were able to penetrate our IADS layer (FACT) and hit our air bases (FACT).

So, if the Indians quantifiably increase the scale of their missile attacks to (1) over-stress our IADS and (2) do so faster, without us having time to vacate our assets, they WILL land a critical blow by striking our assets while they're on the ground.

which is the plan of military high command who hasn't gotten drunk on ISPR koolaid. Just see Khalid Kidwai's statements. All of these forum claims are (hopefully) just noise that hasn't percolated to our actual decision makers at actually serious ranks.

Yes, and CJCSC also said that the next war will be devastating unless the international community steps in to manage the crisis.

 

[Ak01]

Then you must have been asleep.

India said it struck nine "terrorist infrastructure" sites, some of them linked to an attack by Islamist militants that killed 25 Hindu tourists and one local in Indian Kashmir last month.

Let me break it down for you:

-objective
strike sites they believe we're linked to terrorist orgs.
-result
struck...

-objective, achieved.

Can you tell me if the IAFs goal was to enter Pakistani airspace, why theyd launch salvos of BrahMos then lol. The cope here is getting a bit pathetic. Why we refuse to just accept and improve on our shortfalls is beyond me.

Bare in mind, we lost 40 civillians. All we did was 'show restraint'... clearly, India=Deterred.

Heck, if shooting down a jet means deterrence achieved, why was it after balakot India was able to strike pak and pak ONCE AGAIN was caught with its pants down, springing into action ONLY after its territory was struck. Strange deterrence there mate...



If the PAF wants more CM400AKG's, it phones up the OEM, puts in an order.

If the PAF wants more Ra'ads, it must setup a shell to import components, then smuggle them into Pak, then assemble them, then test, certify and deliver. Can you tell me which one sounds easier?


Erm, you can replace Afghanistan with whoever you want, Iran, et al, point doesnt change.


Is that so lol... is that why our favourite source trump sahib harped on and on about preventing a nuclear war?

Heck, wanna pull up this same argument against Khalid Kidwai? He also said that it was our nuclear arsenal that kept India in check... do you wanna ask him about his sources inside the NCA too? https://www.dawn.com/news/1942537


Well, in this case we should also believe that Pakistan is capable of producing a wholly indigenous FGFA. Khwaja asif also claimed we captured indian personnel, tarar claimed we captured an indian border post, etc etc. Are we still serving them tea?


Bruh, Indonesia and Pakistan are both slated to be a part of the Gaza stabilisation force...


Really pathetic attempt at a jab there mate, your attempt at being condescending there does nothing to deflect the stereotype that ex servicemen can be pompous pricks who will do nothing but blindly sip the koolaid of their superiors.

Of course mate, you personally inspected the coffins of their dead.

Its a pathetic attempt at coping, we lost 40 people, plus servicemen, yet all you're concerned about is scoring hits and internet points. The situation is dire, and its the likes of yourself that allow it to get worse...


View attachment 167281

Let's go to other thread and then you can tell me all about those terrorist camps that were hit in first 2 minutes and yet the fight continued for 50 more minutes even after accomplishment of mission.

So you agree, the Indians hit their objectives lol? For all we know, we could have erased the IAF, but my question is, were Indian objectives met?

You must give me that top level source before more snide remarks that tells you CM-400 is just a phone call away but we can't produce cruise missiles in years.

Are we really playing this game? Are you a child? Dont sit here and expect us to really believe this nonsense about the PAF having huge stocks of cruise missiles lol...

And situation is not dire because you say so. Tone down the hyperbole and let's continue it in the right thread.

Indians did literally whatever they wanted to that day=situation not dire
Pakistan caught with its pants down TWICE= Situation not dire
Had to pull out the nuclear card AGAIN =everything is under control

PS: Is Gen Khalid Kidwai also an ex servicemen pompous prick or you just resort to name calling to those who disagree with your baseless ranting? Have you read the last paragraph of this article about Indian failure in achieving objectives?

was your inability to read the reason you did not make it beyond sqn leader?

And If I was trying to be condescending, would have used language like you are using. I simply meant that a pilot will not blindly fly to Adampur after sipping koolaid from superiors with copium of destroyed S-400.

yes, s400 destroyed amirite, but we are nobodies, PAF/PA doesnt need to prove anything to anyone, hence why they choreographed videos and banners for posting so the public can see lol. Give it a break.



"they dont need to prove anything to you"...lol

 

[JamD]

Gen Khalid Kidwai's statements about India failed to achieve any objective, or some other statement?

Exhibits A and B: It is Pakistan's nuclear arsenal keeping Indian military designs in check (not PAF shooting down Indian jets for example).
Exhibit C: ARFC being established as a step on the conventional deterrence ladder before nuclear deterrence.

So no, not his statement about india failed. Also, I do not appreciate the cheeky attempt at trying to twist what I was clearly saying. It shows a certain dearth of civic sense and decency. Ive dealt with many people like you in my career interacting with the PAF. And I know the best way to deal with you. Welcome to my ignore list. Contrary to your very strong belief, you are not worth my time and are generally bringing the quality of the forum down for me at least.

 

[AeronautIR]

So you agree, the Indians hit their objectives lol? For all we know, we could have erased the IAF, but my question is, were Indian objectives met?


Are we really playing this game? Are you a child? Dont sit here and expect us to really believe this nonsense about the PAF having huge stocks of cruise missiles lol...


Indians did literally whatever they wanted to that day=situation not dire
Pakistan caught with its pants down TWICE= Situation not dire
Had to pull out the nuclear card AGAIN =everything is under control



was your inability to read the reason you did not make it beyond sqn leader?


yes, s400 destroyed amirite, but we are nobodies, PAF/PA doesnt need to prove anything to anyone, hence why they choreographed videos and banners for posting so the public can see lol. Give it a break.

View attachment 167303

"they dont need to prove anything to you"...lol

You are doing this lol lol to hide the fact that you don't know why the fight continued for an hour if objectives were met. Don't change the subject.
If the objectives were met in first 2 min, why the fight continued? Just give a simple answer instead of any whatsboutism.

If it is nonsense, confirm it from your high level sources instead of spreading lies about cruise missiles not being used because of less numbers. You have no evidence to support this claim except "trust me" and insulting anyone who doesn't agree with your false deductions.

Again, answer directly: If IAF aircraft are inside Indian airspace, can I shoot them if they have not launched any weapon? An objective answer please and not any rhetoric like caught with pants down.

A sqn ldr still knows more than a wannabe analyst who tries to humiliate others by quoting Gen Khalid Kidwai. Let me copy that paragraph for you here.
“India not only failed to achieve any of its politico-strategic-military objectives, but it also suffered major military reverses, especially in the IAF,” he pointed out.

Next time, do some thorough reading, instead of just the headline, to understand it completely before peddling your all is doomed narrative.

Now, if you can give some objective answers, we can continue with it. Otherwise, it is just wastage of time to tell you that you have an inflated sense of Self-importance and entitlement. Nobody owes you any explanation if you are not ready to answer the questions yourself.

 

[AeronautIR]

View attachment 167295
Exhibits A and B: It is Pakistan's nuclear arsenal keeping Indian military designs in check (not PAF shooting down Indian jets for example).
Exhibit C: ARFC being established as a step on the conventional deterrence ladder before nuclear deterrence.

So no, not his statement about india failed. Also, I do not appreciate the cheeky attempt at trying to twist what I was clearly saying. It shows a certain dearth of civic sense and decency. Ive dealt with many people like you in my career interacting with the PAF. And I know the best way to deal with you. Welcome to my ignore list. Contrary to your very strong belief, you are not worth my time and are generally bringing the quality of the forum down for me at least.

Of course, I think nobody called you out before me.

“India not only failed to achieve any of its politico-strategic-military objectives, but it also suffered major military reverses, especially in the IAF,” he pointed out.

This is the statement from the same article, which you conveniently missed to include in your cheeky analysis. I don't know whether it is intellectual dishonesty or dearth of decency, but you all seriously need to read complete statements before quoting only that part which supports your narrative.

I also have the transcript of that whole speech which goes far beyond these exhibits. I can ask Gen Kidwai for you whether he believes PAF claims or not because many people here call it just copium. I mean even he is lying under ISPR koolaid unless some imagery is shown to public.

 

[AeronautIR]

It's not a 'hypothesis' but an inference based on an assessment of objective reality.

The objective reality being X number of BrahMos, SCALPs, etc., were able to penetrate our IADS layer (FACT) and hit our air bases (FACT).

So, if the Indians quantifiably increase the scale of their missile attacks to (1) over-stress our IADS and (2) do so faster, without us having time to vacate our assets, they WILL land a critical blow by striking our assets while they're on the ground.


Yes, and CJCSC also said that the next war will be devastating unless the international community steps in to manage the crisis.

What was the number of X missiles? I mean, you are calling it objective reality so you must have the total number of missiles fired vs hits.

You must also have the data about current number of launchers in Indian Army and IAF Su-30 capable to fire Brahmos. Let's calculate that objective reality. I can do the statistical analysis for your not-hypothesis inference if you are busy elsewhere.

 

[flyingorca]

How come Pakistan didn’t provide such evidence for the supposed s-400 kills?

They did provide low quality image. However modi did not pose with S400 radar that pakistan claim was destroyed. And even if Pakistan did provide a better quality image Indians would still be not satisfied with the evidence and moved to next goal post. Like, saaar only decoy truck was destroyed.

 

[TAC]

The offensive response should be to see missile strikes on their main urban centers to send a message that this is not some Bollywood movie. The Hindu nationalists should be hammered hard like their ancestors to ensure they don’t harbor any delusions of thinking themselves as the Isreal of the Middle East.

But I guess mr “maturity and restraint” needs to tie the Pakistan military’s hands in the back to ensure he gets camera time with Donald Trump at the White House.

Given that you have claimed that you are, and I quote you, a ‘neutral’ and ‘not even from South Asia’ - care to explain your above post. Thats the problem with lying, you struggle to keep up the act.

 

[Falcon26]

They did provide low quality image. However modi did not pose with S400 radar that pakistan claim was destroyed. And even if Pakistan did provide a better quality image Indians would still be not satisfied with the evidence and moved to next goal post. Like, saaar only decoy truck was destroyed.

What stopped Pakistan from providing irrefutable evidence rather than a blurry image that didn’t even convince Pakistan supporters?

 

[Falcon26]

Given that you have claimed that you are, and I quote you, a ‘neutral’ and ‘not even from South Asia’ - care to explain your above post. Thats the problem with lying, you struggle to keep up the act.

If you are claiming I am a south asian, I am not, nor do I have any connections to South Asia. But I see the Hindu nationalists for what they are and believe Pakistan is on the right side of history and worthy of support.