PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

[Oscar]

If we are done trying to find the tail of the snake - I suggest we return to the J-10C.

 

[Oscar]

لَا حَوْلَ وَلَا قُوَّةَ إِلَّا بِٱللَّٰهِ​

The Sahaba (RA) questioned the second Caliph, Omar ibn al-Khattab (RA), on why he had an extra cloak, or why he (RA) rescinded the stipend given to mothers, or why he (RA) folded newly conquered land instead of allocating it to the soldiers, and so on. And Umar (RA) responded to every single one, either by showing his justifications from evidence, or (when he was incorrect) by changing his policies.

Accountability runs in the veins of Muslims, so don't be surprised that when Muslims (given the agency that the Pakistani elites deny them) demand answers to questions about their public affairs.

The issue at hand isn't about who has the authority, but about applying the concept of ٱلْأَمْرُ بِٱلْمَعْرُوفِ وَٱلنَّهْيُ عَنِ ٱلْمُنْكَرِ (i.e. enjoining the good and forbidding the evil). Believe it or not, this idea isn't limited to the height of your pants or length of your beard, but on matters of public affairs, such as where the nation's money is being spent, whether it's being spent well, and what the returns on that expenditure.

This is how strong and prosperous societies function, and the elites of said societies know to respect it. The ones "venting" here want to see a Pakistan that not only rivals India, but mops the floor with India in every single domain, from science to sports to everything. For that, we need to establish standards, and the most crucial one is accountability of one's leaders, be it military, political, bureaucratic, or judicial.

We are expecting the evidence because the service chiefs themselves made the claim. Do you have no understanding of the basic concepts of "proof" or "evidence?" When one makes a claim, they should provide the evidence to substantiate it; otherwise, it is a baseless claim.

We "venting" lot would prefer our service chiefs to provide evidence so that they do not make themselves and Pakistan a laughing stock in front of the world.

All great - However accountability does not run in the veins of Muslims - it is a tenet of Islam that starts first with personal accountability and then outward.
What type of people did the Sahaba rule over?
I suggest that question is answered with the same thoughtfulness and venting in a different thread - but is is answered.

 

[Oscar]

On a differrent note - and this needs to put in the F-16 thread as well as MILGEM and even Subs or SAMS when we think of "wishlists" - I heard a great phrase that summarized all my "venting" and it takes greater minds(thank you Adm Leclare) to put those words together..


So when we (including myself) talk to systems and plans - keep in mind that AVAILABLITY trumps ABILITY.

Two words, but measure everything through that lens because both PAF and PN have usually had focus on that. I cannot speak for PA but I can let @Panzerkiel leave his usual emoticons or maybe reply.

 

[AeronautIR]

لَا حَوْلَ وَلَا قُوَّةَ إِلَّا بِٱللَّٰهِ​

The Sahaba (RA) questioned the second Caliph, Omar ibn al-Khattab (RA), on why he had an extra cloak, or why he (RA) rescinded the stipend given to mothers, or why he (RA) folded newly conquered land instead of allocating it to the soldiers, and so on. And Umar (RA) responded to every single one, either by showing his justifications from evidence, or (when he was incorrect) by changing his policies.

Accountability runs in the veins of Muslims, so don't be surprised that when Muslims (given the agency that the Pakistani elites deny them) demand answers to questions about their public affairs.

The issue at hand isn't about who has the authority, but about applying the concept of ٱلْأَمْرُ بِٱلْمَعْرُوفِ وَٱلنَّهْيُ عَنِ ٱلْمُنْكَرِ (i.e. enjoining the good and forbidding the evil). Believe it or not, this idea isn't limited to the height of your pants or length of your beard, but on matters of public affairs, such as where the nation's money is being spent, whether it's being spent well, and what the returns on that expenditure.

This is how strong and prosperous societies function, and the elites of said societies know to respect it. The ones "venting" here want to see a Pakistan that not only rivals India, but mops the floor with India in every single domain, from science to sports to everything. For that, we need to establish standards, and the most crucial one is accountability of one's leaders, be it military, political, bureaucratic, or judicial.

We are expecting the evidence because the service chiefs themselves made the claim. Do you have no understanding of the basic concepts of "proof" or "evidence?" When one makes a claim, they should provide the evidence to substantiate it; otherwise, it is a baseless claim.

We "venting" lot would prefer our service chiefs to provide evidence so that they do not make themselves and Pakistan a laughing stock in front of the world.

Ok then, if you are bringing Islam in it now, go and ask them your questions. Who am I to stop you.
My simple point is that keep the discussions related to the topic here.

And I didn't mean you can't ask chiefs or government any question. Don't twist my words. We were talking about issues of our system where we cannot even question the local SHO or Assistant Commissioner for issues like crimes or pollution etc.
I gave a suggestion of petition to MNA or judge and it was deemed hilarious and dangerous by some. So, based on it, do you think CAS will be pushed to release evidence through this forum?

Every government department uses tax money unless you believe it's only the military and rest all work for free.

If you haven't still understood my point, then I can just apologize for wasting your time and we can move on with our lives. As I said, this is an exercise in futility and I am more interested in discussing airpower than politics.

 

[AeronautIR]

Yes? Or do you not consider the armed forces a PubIic service, A public service is supposed disclose where public money is being spent, its literally what many other militaries do, the Indian military publicly showcased satellite photos of their hits, actually I want to ask you something, If you think the military has satellite of photos of damages to Indian Airbases then why do you think they are keeping it a secret?

Now, let me explain it to you as I will explain it to my kids.
Military is answerable to public through public servants. Nowhere in the world, from India to USA, military justifies or gives details to satisfy public curiosity. You called it hilarious when I suggested petitioning elected officials, but that is how it is done in other countries. PM can order them due to public pressure to show imagery. Otherwise, they are under no legal obligation to answer any taxpayer. If you stop paying taxes, you will get a notice from FBR and not GHQ.

Whatever your personal beliefs are, it is still a democracy and not a martial law. If the democratic system is broken, that is a separate issue but officially, you can ask Defence Minister for whom people have voted and then he can ask the services chiefs to share proof of hits.

The theft of tax, electricity, gas and political system are important debates but these arguments are not academiacally valid for this topic.

 

[AeronautIR]

So when we (including myself) talk to systems and plans - keep in mind that AVAILABLITY trumps ABILITY.

This... best and most concise explanation of the dilemma.

 

[MirageV3ff]

You know the bickering in this thread reminds me of a time when someone used to call someone a Jew if they didn't agree with them

 

[TAC]

I agree with what you have mentioned, however, I want to play out a hypothetical here i.e. let's suppose the damage was done - would releasing the satellite imagery or any other kind of evidence - lowered (or increased) the appetite for revenge war amongst the Indian population with 100% certainty?

Since, we couldn't be sure of it, isn't it then a strategically risk aversive bet - where the Indian population is settled down (for now) while their leadership is put in a precarious situation (knowing the capability of their adversary) and perhaps forced to re-think their narrative against Pakistan?

Please note that I'm not asserting that damage was done, I'm taking a hypothetical based on the assumption that "if damage was done"

Would certainly make a lot of sense given the completely different very composed reaction of the BJP Govt to the recent Delhi blast compared with their gung ho attitude back in May. Something fundamental changed.

 

[PakShaheen_79]

I think we all need to go back to YJ-21E integration on J-10C news. That needs more in-depth discussion.

 

[mdmm55]

USA govt agencies have confiremd that China will provide 40 J-35 and already given 36 J-10 c to Pakistan,..
Good news for overseas Pakistani

 

[Ak01]

btw China has FOI requests, yet our friends here continue to want to die on the hill that armed forces are not answerable to the public.

Yesterday i submitted an FOI to the RAF asking for details of the UK's push to market typhoon to Pakistan...

But no, nowhere in the world...amirite.

 

[Bratva]

btw China has FOI requests, yet our friends here continue to want to die on the hill that armed forces are not answerable to the public.

Yesterday i submitted an FOI to the RAF asking for details of the UK's push to market typhoon to Pakistan...

But no, nowhere in the world...amirite.

Do you want any ex-PAF official to be treated the way Air Marshal Jawad Saeed was? He disclosed Sidhu Sahab corruption and how many jets were destroyed in mianwali base attack and ended up in jail.

 

[Ali_Baba]

USA govt agencies have confiremd that China will provide 40 J-35 and already given 36 J-10 c to Pakistan,..
Good news for overseas Pakistani

China does not "GIVE", it SELLS and it does that for hard cash. the J10CE were purchased for money, and not provided for free or as aid ....

 

[Ak01]

Do you want any ex-PAF official to be treated the way Air Marshal Jawad Saeed was? He disclosed Sidhu Sahab corruption and how many jets were destroyed in mianwali base attack and ended up in jail.

ef paf men go on and on about things, this very thread is an example.

paf itself should be accountable, same with pa, same with pn.

 

[hasssanali8998]

how many jets were destroyed in mianwali base attack

how many were destroyed ??