PAF Conducts Successful Test Launch of Taimoor ALCM

[Toxic]

Also if we can increase the speed at lets say around 50km with the target? that can also reduce the 30 seconds time to lets say double the speed then 15 second? now i dont know any missile is capable of anything like that. ofcourse EW and stealth is good but if it makes it expensive we can have these solution as well if it is cheaper than EW and stealth?

Actually the Kalibr missile does exactly that they have a second propulsion stage that allows them to go supersonic during the terminal approach.

 

[JamD]

Also if we can increase the speed at lets say around 50km with the target? that can also reduce the 30 seconds time to lets say double the speed then 15 second? now i dont know any missile is capable of anything like that. ofcourse EW and stealth is good but if it makes it expensive we can have these solution as well if it is cheaper than EW and stealth?

Actually the YJ18 is exactly that - it is a copy of a Russian system.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

Actually the Kalibr missile does exactly that they have a second propulsion stage that allows them to go supersonic during the terminal approach,

Great.. did you know how it performed in ukraine?

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

Actually the YJ18 is exactly that - it is a copy of a Russian system.

will that make it cheap? I dont know. I always tends towards cheap solution because with our economy we need cheap solutions.

That is why in the same post i discussed that if we make a good study on terrain mapping both on our side and enemy side in detail. then we can find cheap solution for detection and interception on our side even using manpad if we somehow connect these soldiers with manpad through fast network and placed them in areas that are blind to our radars

 

[JamD]

will that make it cheap? I dont know. I always tends towards cheap solution because with our economy we need cheap solutions.

That is why in the same post i discussed that if we make a good study on terrain mapping both on our side and enemy side in detail. then we can find cheap solution for detection and interception on our side even using manpad if we somehow connect these soldiers with manpad through fast network and placed them in areas that are blind to our radars

I don't know about cheap but the primary concern with Taimoor is size. The YJ18 is twice as heavy as Taimoor and much bigger. Something that big cannot be launched by Mirages/Jf17s. There's also the tech development. Not sure if we have the bandwidth to develop something like that. But I am still wondering what the endgame defense of a traditional subsonic cruise missile is.

Regarding your manpad idea, I think some form of this is already done. We shot down an Indian jet during Kargil in a valley with Manpads.
"Indian Air Force openly entered into the conflict on 26 May 1999 and launched air strikes 10 kms across LoC inside Pakistani territory. Pakistan warned that if India would continue to violate its airspace than it would target them in retaliation. On 27 May 1999, IAF MiG-27ML (Serial No. 1135) flown by Flt Lt K. Nachiketa of No. 9 Squadron intruded into Pakistan airspace at 11:15 a.m. (PST) near Hunzi Ghund. It intruded twice and first marked a Pakistani position on the LoC with smoke bombs and then came in for a rocketing and strafing attack on the same post. Gunner Shafaqat Ali commanded by Capt. Faheem Tipu of Air Defence using an ANZA-II SAM tracked and shot down the MiG as it exited."

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

I don't know about cheap but the primary concern with Taimoor is size. The YJ18 is twice as heavy as Taimoor and much bigger. Something that big cannot be launched by Mirages/Jf17s. There's also the tech development. Not sure if we have the bandwidth to develop something like that. But I am still wondering what the endgame defense of a traditional subsonic cruise missile is.

Regarding your manpad idea, I think some form of this is already done. We shot down an Indian jet during Kargil in a valley with Manpads.
"Indian Air Force openly entered into the conflict on 26 May 1999 and launched air strikes 10 kms across LoC inside Pakistani territory. Pakistan warned that if India would continue to violate its airspace than it would target them in retaliation. On 27 May 1999, IAF MiG-27ML (Serial No. 1135) flown by Flt Lt K. Nachiketa of No. 9 Squadron intruded into Pakistan airspace at 11:15 a.m. (PST) near Hunzi Ghund. It intruded twice and first marked a Pakistani position on the LoC with smoke bombs and then came in for a rocketing and strafing attack on the same post. Gunner Shafaqat Ali commanded by Capt. Faheem Tipu of Air Defence using an ANZA-II SAM tracked and shot down the MiG as it exited."

So for air launched it is not easy.
regarding Manpad i jet or drone can be intercepted way more easily than a missile and my comment was about missile interception. One more thing as discussed for maximum range aircraft usually climb up to launch cruise missile as @Ak01 mentioned for the brahmos in that case now if you see the HQ-19 make sense. with such a long range detection it can be effectively used to detect and intercept brahmos at the launching time.

 

[Gripen9]

As I said before, HAL was founded in 1940 and was producing aircraft when we didn't even think of any such factory. Same goes for many other industrial bases.

So, these are important variables if we actually want to find the solution. The mentality of officers is just one of the issues. Now, if this disagreement can lead to a personal attack like many others, count that a problem too.

I totally agree that India inherited an established industrial base while what we got barring a few factories in Karachi/Lahore area was the backwaters of the British Raj. However, Pakistan has unfortunately regressed in the past 20+ years instead of progressing. Dare I say our industrial base circa 1965 was much better than current. We had a fledgling ship building industry, even local car manufacturing industry. That were first hit hard by Bhutto's nationalization and following that successive mismanagement under various doctorships, semi democratic and hybrid regimes. As we stand, we have been converted to a consumer economy that can't / wont manufacture anything and imports everything by taking loans

You also have to agree that for the atleast past 8+ years military has had a stranglehold on every aspect of Pakistan's governance. If you think that a civilian government is running the show and setting up its economic, education, health etc policy instead of Vigo waly sarkar, then we'll have to politely disagree on it.

 

[Gripen9]

I don't know about cheap but the primary concern with Taimoor is size. The YJ18 is twice as heavy as Taimoor and much bigger. Something that big cannot be launched by Mirages/Jf17s. There's also the tech development. Not sure if we have the bandwidth to develop something like that. But I am still wondering what the endgame defense of a traditional subsonic cruise missile is.

Regarding your manpad idea, I think some form of this is already done. We shot down an Indian jet during Kargil in a valley with Manpads.
"Indian Air Force openly entered into the conflict on 26 May 1999 and launched air strikes 10 kms across LoC inside Pakistani territory. Pakistan warned that if India would continue to violate its airspace than it would target them in retaliation. On 27 May 1999, IAF MiG-27ML (Serial No. 1135) flown by Flt Lt K. Nachiketa of No. 9 Squadron intruded into Pakistan airspace at 11:15 a.m. (PST) near Hunzi Ghund. It intruded twice and first marked a Pakistani position on the LoC with smoke bombs and then came in for a rocketing and strafing attack on the same post. Gunner Shafaqat Ali commanded by Capt. Faheem Tipu of Air Defence using an ANZA-II SAM tracked and shot down the MiG as it exited."

A Mig21 was also shot down pilot a S/L was KIA. Don't know if it was Anza or regular AA guns.

 

[rafale]

I am not sure. Their interception rate was better than us. They have new interceptors and they are making more and more sams. It's hard to penetrate. I think this system is just show off. It might not work in war like situation.

To make such systems work you will need to carry out SEAD and DEAD missions..........this is a must........clearly couple of CM400 got them to pack their S400s up, right? So i am sure you can sneak your CMs through with similar targeting on Akash/Spyder/Barak 8 sams........but yes, you need enough platforms and targeting assets to launch SEAD/DEAD munitions.

 

[Falcon26]

I don't know about cheap but the primary concern with Taimoor is size. The YJ18 is twice as heavy as Taimoor and much bigger. Something that big cannot be launched by Mirages/Jf17s. There's also the tech development. Not sure if we have the bandwidth to develop something like that. But I am still wondering what the endgame defense of a traditional subsonic cruise missile is.

Regarding your manpad idea, I think some form of this is already done. We shot down an Indian jet during Kargil in a valley with Manpads.
"Indian Air Force openly entered into the conflict on 26 May 1999 and launched air strikes 10 kms across LoC inside Pakistani territory. Pakistan warned that if India would continue to violate its airspace than it would target them in retaliation. On 27 May 1999, IAF MiG-27ML (Serial No. 1135) flown by Flt Lt K. Nachiketa of No. 9 Squadron intruded into Pakistan airspace at 11:15 a.m. (PST) near Hunzi Ghund. It intruded twice and first marked a Pakistani position on the LoC with smoke bombs and then came in for a rocketing and strafing attack on the same post. Gunner Shafaqat Ali commanded by Capt. Faheem Tipu of Air Defence using an ANZA-II SAM tracked and shot down the MiG as it exited."

What do you think of Pakistan integrating the SOM missiles on JF-17 as Azerbaijan is rumored to be doing? Will it provide capability upgrade over the Taimoor/Raad?

 

[Gripen9]

What do you think of Pakistan integrating the SOM missiles on JF-17 as Azerbaijan is rumored to be doing? Will it provide capability upgrade over the Taimoor/Raad?

We don't need SOM for JF17 since RAAD2/Taimoor is already integrated and locally produced. SOM doesn't provide any added capability and has less range.

 

[Princeps]

Great.. did you know how it performed in ukraine?

3m54 is a anti-ship missile so wasn't used in Ukraine. The land attack variant 3m14 has been used extensively but it doesn't have the supersonic sprint.

 

[JamD]

What do you think of Pakistan integrating the SOM missiles on JF-17 as Azerbaijan is rumored to be doing? Will it provide capability upgrade over the Taimoor/Raad?

We don't need SOM for JF17 since RAAD2/Taimoor is already integrated and locally produced. SOM doesn't provide any added capability and has less range.

At the risk of sounding like a Turkophile I see several advantages that SOM has - some more speculative that the other:
1. Taimoor is developed from Raad and is thus a big boy. A conventional ALCM is better sized like the SOM, which has the luxury of not starting off as a nuclear delivery system. Half the weight, much smaller size - heck was meant to be carried internally by the f35. You could possibly deploy twice as many SOMs as Taimoors if size and weight was the only concern - probably even more since Taimoors size makes it quite unwieldy.
2. It is clearly designed with radar stealth in mind and should be more survivable (did i mention it is small?)
3. It is made by Turkey, which has a very developed defense industry. This means possibly quite advanced inputs such as sensors, EW suites, turbojets are on the SOM.
4. The missile has been tested and produced at scale. Just Turkiye has 500 ordered. Also Azeri order. We've proof that we've produced 1 Taimoor so far. These kinds of numbers tell you how many are supposed to be carried (point 1) and there is are economies of scale and many many kinks are ironed out when you produce so many.
5. The turbojet is local and not bad in terms of fuel consumption. This and 4 probably keeps the cost down.
6. The SOM has had SO many tests (because of 4) compared to Taimoor (1), which helps iron out kinks
7. Very very likely SOM has a much lower per unit cost than Taimoor
8. Yes the range of the SOMJ is basically half of Taimoor but I am not sure if that added range is worth all of the problems above. How many targets does PAF really want to hit 500km inside India and how many can it even hit when it can barely produce any Taimoors.

In summary the SOM is a much better optimized design for an ALCM than Taimoor، both in terms of capability and producability (is that a word?lol). Taimoor's Raad heritage holds it back a lot in so many ways. SOM is what Rasoob could be but SOM started development in 2014.

 

[JamD]

At the risk of sounding like a Turkophile I see several advantages that SOM has - some more speculative that the other:
1. Taimoor is developed from Raad and is thus a big boy. A conventional ALCM is better sized like the SOM, which has the luxury of not starting off as a nuclear delivery system. Half the weight, much smaller size - heck was meant to be carried internally by the f35. You could possibly deploy twice as many SOMs as Taimoors if size and weight was the only concern - probably even more since Taimoors size makes it quite unwieldy.
2. It is clearly designed with radar stealth in mind and should be more survivable (did i mention it is small?)
3. It is made by Turkey, which has a very developed defense industry. This means possibly quite advanced inputs such as sensors, EW suites, turbojets are on the SOM.
4. The missile has been tested and produced at scale. Just Turkiye has 500 ordered. Also Azeri order. We've proof that we've produced 1 Taimoor so far. These kinds of numbers tell you how many are supposed to be carried (point 1) and there is are economies of scale and many many kinks are ironed out when you produce so many.
5. The turbojet is local and not bad in terms of fuel consumption. This and 4 probably keeps the cost down.
6. The SOM has had SO many tests (because of 4) compared to Taimoor (1), which helps iron out kinks
7. Very very likely SOM has a much lower per unit cost than Taimoor
8. Yes the range of the SOMJ is basically half of Taimoor but I am not sure if that added range is worth all of the problems above. How many targets does PAF really want to hit 500km inside India and how many can it even hit when it can barely produce any Taimoors.

In summary the SOM is a much better optimized design for an ALCM than Taimoor، both in terms of capability and producability (is that a word?lol). Taimoor's Raad heritage holds it back a lot in so many ways. SOM is what Rasoob could be but SOM started development in 2014.

This is a comparison in terms of the system. Of course for Pakistan's industry I'd want Taimoor and Rasoob all the way. However, I don't see how Rasoob (the real competitor to SOM) can compete with the SOM considering SOM is a well developed system, already in service with the Azeris, and Rasoob is just a concept at this point.

 

[RAMPAGE]

producability (is that a word?lol).

Yes, just replace the letter 'a' with an 'i.' A fitting word for your purpose.