PAF Conducts Successful Test Launch of Taimoor ALCM

[Yasser76]

Doing fine What about you Mr Shit from a another ass

Knock it off man, this is boring

 

[Psyko70]

At the risk of sounding like a Turkophile I see several advantages that SOM has - some more speculative that the other:
1. Taimoor is developed from Raad and is thus a big boy. A conventional ALCM is better sized like the SOM, which has the luxury of not starting off as a nuclear delivery system. Half the weight, much smaller size - heck was meant to be carried internally by the f35. You could possibly deploy twice as many SOMs as Taimoors if size and weight was the only concern - probably even more since Taimoors size makes it quite unwieldy.
2. It is clearly designed with radar stealth in mind and should be more survivable (did i mention it is small?)
3. It is made by Turkey, which has a very developed defense industry. This means possibly quite advanced inputs such as sensors, EW suites, turbojets are on the SOM.
4. The missile has been tested and produced at scale. Just Turkiye has 500 ordered. Also Azeri order. We've proof that we've produced 1 Taimoor so far. These kinds of numbers tell you how many are supposed to be carried (point 1) and there is are economies of scale and many many kinks are ironed out when you produce so many.
5. The turbojet is local and not bad in terms of fuel consumption. This and 4 probably keeps the cost down.
6. The SOM has had SO many tests (because of 4) compared to Taimoor (1), which helps iron out kinks
7. Very very likely SOM has a much lower per unit cost than Taimoor
8. Yes the range of the SOMJ is basically half of Taimoor but I am not sure if that added range is worth all of the problems above. How many targets does PAF really want to hit 500km inside India and how many can it even hit when it can barely produce any Taimoors.

In summary the SOM is a much better optimized design for an ALCM than Taimoor، both in terms of capability and producability (is that a word?lol). Taimoor's Raad heritage holds it back a lot in so many ways. SOM is what Rasoob could be but SOM started development in 2014.

Hello sir,

I dont argue or debate with think tanks. However, I wanted to here so I will do with respect and dignity as morals maketh a man. So sir, what you mentioned e.g. stealth is also part of Raad system and Rasoob. Pakistan does possess tech to create on par with western ALCM. I dont find your list to be enough to justify SOM is better. Rasoob as well. Rasoob may be low range but the rest of tech is same as any available in world like even storm shadow. Sorry if I am being rude but since its Pakistani product being debunked as inferior I always involve myself to have a proper conversation on tech expect.

Truth is Taimoor is new refined Raad system whose public specs are yet to be fully public for now its limited data and extracted from small fragments of news.

This is what Ai states and to be honest Ai knows only what we know as available on public internet. DeepSeek.
Navigation & Guidance Sensors

Both missiles employ a redundant navigation architecture to ensure precision even when GPS/GNSS signals are denied.

• Taimoor ALCM (Pakistan):
  • GNSS/GPS: Satellite-aided navigation for primary mid-course tracking. I want to add its beidou not GNSS only.
  • INS (Inertial Navigation System): Provides internal positioning data independent of external signals.
  • TERCOM (Terrain Contour Matching): Uses a terrain radar to compare the ground profile against stored maps for low-altitude flight.
    
    
  • DSMAC (Digital Scene Matching Area Correlator): An optical/image sensor that takes snapshots of the ground to verify the missile's position.
    This is mostly Computer Vision based via radar imaging or optical Imaging and I find its accuracy limited
• SOM Missile (Turkey):
  • GPS/INS: Standard satellite and inertial navigation for mid-course flight.
  • TRN (Terrain Referenced Navigation): A radar-based sensor allowing the missile to skim the terrain and evade defenses.
  • IBN (Image Based Navigation): Uses the seeker to take snapshots of waypoints and compare them against pre-loaded images, providing navigation updates if GPS is jammed.
    This is mostly Computer Vision based via radar imaging or optical Imaging and I find its accuracy limited

Terminal Seeker Sensors
Both missiles utilize advanced imaging for high-precision impact in the final stage of flight.

• Imaging Infrared (IIR) Seeker:
  • Taimoor: Features a modern IIR seeker used for surgical precision against stationary and moving targets, including surface warships. This sensor allows the missile to be effective in EW-dense environments.
  • SOM: Uses an IIR seeker to match the target's signature with a pre-loaded database.
• Automatic Target Recognition (ATR):
  • SOM: Specifically features ATR and Automatic Target Acquisition (ATA), allowing the missile to autonomously identify and select the correct target from its surroundings during the terminal phase.
    
    This is mostly Computer Vision based via radar imaging or optical Imaging and I find its accuracy limited
• Two-Way Data Link:
  • SOM: Includes a New-Enabled-Warfare based Datalink, which allows for in-flight retargeting, mission abort, and real-time target updates.
  • Taimoor: While designed for moving targets, specific two-way datalink features for mid-flight updates are less publicly documented than those for the SOM.
    So we dont exactly know as its still yet confidential how 2 way datalink is used. However, its in my opinion it has better chance of reassurance of the missile target.

Respectfully, SOM has no alien tech to justify its better than RAAD 2 (Taimoor) they are equal or on par with each other. I for one know for many years Pakistan cruise missiles make not have chafe flare dispensers like kalibr missile of Russia. But it definitely a stubborn system that resist EW jamming and soft attacks as well. Which even storm shadow lacks. As Pakistan had success limited or not but it had success in downinig them without hardkill brahmos/scalp. in may 2025 conflict.

 

[AeronautIR]

Why are you apologetic about defending military ?.....I am an army brat and I proudly defend my military.

My father is a civilian doctor but I served for 20 years. I am not apologetic but blindly defending it is same as mindless criticism. If we start from 1947, not all decisions by military were right. But that doesn't mean we should have a bias against armed forces while analyzing May conflict.

I believe we did really good in that standoff and I disagreed with those posts about military not knowing anything, for which I was labeled as stubborn and all that. Simply put, discussion should be case to case instead of blanket prejudice.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Hello sir,

I dont argue or debate with think tanks. However, I wanted to here so I will do with respect and dignity as morals maketh a man. So sir, what you mentioned e.g. stealth is also part of Raad system and Rasoob. Pakistan does possess tech to create on par with western ALCM. I dont find your list to be enough to justify SOM is better. Rasoob as well. Rasoob may be low range but the rest of tech is same as any available in world like even storm shadow. Sorry if I am being rude but since its Pakistani product being debunked as inferior I always involve myself to have a proper conversation on tech expect.

Truth is Taimoor is new refined Raad system whose public specs are yet to be fully public for now its limited data and extracted from small fragments of news.

This is what Ai states and to be honest Ai knows only what we know as available on public internet. DeepSeek.
Navigation & Guidance Sensors

Both missiles employ a redundant navigation architecture to ensure precision even when GPS/GNSS signals are denied.

• Taimoor ALCM (Pakistan):
  • GNSS/GPS: Satellite-aided navigation for primary mid-course tracking. I want to add its beidou not GNSS only.
  • INS (Inertial Navigation System): Provides internal positioning data independent of external signals.
  • TERCOM (Terrain Contour Matching): Uses a terrain radar to compare the ground profile against stored maps for low-altitude flight.
    
    
  • DSMAC (Digital Scene Matching Area Correlator): An optical/image sensor that takes snapshots of the ground to verify the missile's position.
    This is mostly Computer Vision based via radar imaging or optical Imaging and I find its accuracy limited
• SOM Missile (Turkey):
  • GPS/INS: Standard satellite and inertial navigation for mid-course flight.
  • TRN (Terrain Referenced Navigation): A radar-based sensor allowing the missile to skim the terrain and evade defenses.
  • IBN (Image Based Navigation): Uses the seeker to take snapshots of waypoints and compare them against pre-loaded images, providing navigation updates if GPS is jammed.
    This is mostly Computer Vision based via radar imaging or optical Imaging and I find its accuracy limited

Terminal Seeker Sensors
Both missiles utilize advanced imaging for high-precision impact in the final stage of flight.

• Imaging Infrared (IIR) Seeker:
  • Taimoor: Features a modern IIR seeker used for surgical precision against stationary and moving targets, including surface warships. This sensor allows the missile to be effective in EW-dense environments.
  • SOM: Uses an IIR seeker to match the target's signature with a pre-loaded database.
• Automatic Target Recognition (ATR):
  • SOM: Specifically features ATR and Automatic Target Acquisition (ATA), allowing the missile to autonomously identify and select the correct target from its surroundings during the terminal phase.
    
    This is mostly Computer Vision based via radar imaging or optical Imaging and I find its accuracy limited
• Two-Way Data Link:
  • SOM: Includes a New-Enabled-Warfare based Datalink, which allows for in-flight retargeting, mission abort, and real-time target updates.
  • Taimoor: While designed for moving targets, specific two-way datalink features for mid-flight updates are less publicly documented than those for the SOM.
    So we dont exactly know as its still yet confidential how 2 way datalink is used. However, its in my opinion it has better chance of reassurance of the missile target.

Respectfully, SOM has no alien tech to justify its better than RAAD 2 (Taimoor) they are equal or on par with each other. I for one know for many years Pakistan cruise missiles make not have chafe flare dispensers like kalibr missile of Russia. But it definitely a stubborn system that resist EW jamming and soft attacks as well. Which even storm shadow lacks. As Pakistan had success limited or not but it had success in downinig them without hardkill brahmos/scalp. in may 2025 conflict.

My Honda has a sound system installed. So does an S-class Mercedes. Going by your logic, both are equal with regard to their sound systems.

 

[Samurai]

At the risk of sounding like a Turkophile I see several advantages that SOM has

The problem I see here looking at the discussion is people are comparing both systems as both Taimoor and SOM are competitor but this has also been highlighted multiple times in the past on this forum (also Quwa wrote an article on it) that both Pakistan and Turkish defence industries should collaborate and cooperate rather than compete to benefit each other. Pretty sure Turkey is willing to collaborate but unfortunately is not getting the proper feedback from Pakistan side especially on the KAAN platform (don't know the reasons or hesitation but this is a hallmark Pakistani thing) and its kind of like frustrating for the other party. Nevertheless there has been some positive traction on this matter both countries have announced to develop production facilities in Pakistan.

 

[Falcon26]

At the risk of sounding like a Turkophile I see several advantages that SOM has - some more speculative that the other:
1. Taimoor is developed from Raad and is thus a big boy. A conventional ALCM is better sized like the SOM, which has the luxury of not starting off as a nuclear delivery system. Half the weight, much smaller size - heck was meant to be carried internally by the f35. You could possibly deploy twice as many SOMs as Taimoors if size and weight was the only concern - probably even more since Taimoors size makes it quite unwieldy.
2. It is clearly designed with radar stealth in mind and should be more survivable (did i mention it is small?)
3. It is made by Turkey, which has a very developed defense industry. This means possibly quite advanced inputs such as sensors, EW suites, turbojets are on the SOM.
4. The missile has been tested and produced at scale. Just Turkiye has 500 ordered. Also Azeri order. We've proof that we've produced 1 Taimoor so far. These kinds of numbers tell you how many are supposed to be carried (point 1) and there is are economies of scale and many many kinks are ironed out when you produce so many.
5. The turbojet is local and not bad in terms of fuel consumption. This and 4 probably keeps the cost down.
6. The SOM has had SO many tests (because of 4) compared to Taimoor (1), which helps iron out kinks
7. Very very likely SOM has a much lower per unit cost than Taimoor
8. Yes the range of the SOMJ is basically half of Taimoor but I am not sure if that added range is worth all of the problems above. How many targets does PAF really want to hit 500km inside India and how many can it even hit when it can barely produce any Taimoors.

In summary the SOM is a much better optimized design for an ALCM than Taimoor، both in terms of capability and producability (is that a word?lol). Taimoor's Raad heritage holds it back a lot in so many ways. SOM is what Rasoob could be but SOM started development in 2014.

Thank you for the very detailed post.

I have had this same reasons in minds. Just producing SOM in-house with ToT will do wonders for Pakistan. Even though looks can be deceiving, just looking at SOM & Taimoor, one can tell which is more advanced.

 

[AeronautIR]

Frankly, those were also military extended governments (NS, IJI, Kakar formula, etc) who primarily thought of pleasing or balancing relation with the GHQ. Before that, the industry was already killed in 70s nationalization, and Zia was a non-civilian.
Anyway, do you think a booster can be added to Taimur and PL15 to be launched by, say, C-130 or Embraer or IL-17? If yes, domestically? I asked this as 09th May operation hinted about the kill chain, so why not some 10-20 such missiles for a very long stick.

It is not a secret that each and every government in Pakistan had direct or indirect involvement of military. But we also know that it wasn't possible without nexus of so many politicians, judges, bureaucrats, Pakistani nation etc. So that is a moot point and can be discussed academically in a separate thread.

About boosters, we have seen jet powered kits that increase the range of dumb bombs. With missiles, especially BVR, it is not that simple. There are sophisticated avionics for guidance like AESA seeker of PL-15 and their performance may get affrcted with boosters, integration issues with transport aircraft etc.

I am not an engineer so don't know much about the technicalities involved. But I haven't seen any such domestic plans even if it is theoretically possible.

 

[Psyko70]

My Honda has a sound system installed. So does an S-class Mercedes. Going by your logic, both are equal with regard to their sound systems.

Hello sir,

Before 2025 conflicy Rafale was mercedes and j10 was honda for many but with assist of awacs it outperformed it. Your logic is right but in science there are multiple logics and theories.

But By your logic also USA GAAS based chips must be superior to GAN based chinese chips because west quality is supposed to be superior.

The inferiority complex of asians is mind blowing though.

 

[Michael]

Anyway, do you think a booster can be added to Taimur and PL15 to be launched by, say, C-130 or Embraer or IL-17? If yes, domestically? I asked this as 09th May operation hinted about the kill chain, so why not some 10-20 such missiles for a very long stick.

This actually involves another technology: thrust stage separation technology.

When a missile uses multi-stage propulsion technology, the first stage propulsion system needs to separate from the main body of the missile after it finishes its work. Otherwise, the spent propulsion system would become a burden on the missile, wasting the energy of the subsequent propulsion stages.

In the field of launch vehicles, explosive bolts are commonly used for this purpose. However, these are not cheap. They significantly increase the manufacturing cost of the missile.

At the same time, multi-stage propulsion systems increase the complexity of controlling the missile system. If the ignition timing of the secondary propulsion system is incorrect, it will seriously affect the missile's performance.

In short, multi-stage propulsion systems can indeed improve a missile's capabilities, but they significantly increase production costs and technical complexity.

 

[Goenitz]

It is not a secret that each and every government in Pakistan had direct or indirect involvement of military. But we also know that it wasn't possible without nexus of so many politicians, judges, bureaucrats, Pakistani nation etc. So that is a moot point and can be discussed academically in a separate thread.

About boosters, we have seen jet powered kits that increase the range of dumb bombs. With missiles, especially BVR, it is not that simple. There are sophisticated avionics for guidance like AESA seeker of PL-15 and their performance may get affrcted with boosters, integration issues with transport aircraft etc.

I am not an engineer so don't know much about the technicalities involved. But I haven't seen any such domestic plans even if it is theoretically possible.

sure.
Actually, I was thinking that both PAF and PIA were initial movers in tech, so I thought maybe this time, too, we can secure an advantage. Sure, the technical issues of adding a rocket motor are there. Maybe a cold launch could work with little modifications in the initial stage (especially for PL15). Anyway, just a thought.

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[Ak01]

Anyway, do you think a booster can be added to Taimur and PL15 to be launched by, say, C-130 or Embraer or IL-17? If yes, domestically? I asked this as 09th May operation hinted about the kill chain, so why not some 10-20 such missiles for a very long stick.

Let me tell you, the cost of something like this would probably be able to buy you a few squadrons of fighter jets.

Certifications and modifications in the aviation world are no joke. Take the biggest regulatory nightmare you've experienced and multiply it by 10,000, then you've got certifications. This has given us the gift that is certain screws costing $700 per screw. Dont even get me started on the $20,000 jesus nut.

The USAF has rapid dragon, and its an interesting concept, but it relies on two factors:

Having TONS of munitions
Having TONS of aircraft to drop them from

in wartime, the PAF's biggest issue will be its relatively small cargo fleet. Its not ideal. We have what, 20 C130s? With not the greatest availability. In 2023, the USAF reported a 44% mission capable rate for its C130H, and 72% for its C130J. In 2024, 67%. I dont think its unreasonable to assume a 50-55% mission capable rate (mission capable is different from availability! MC is skewed in the sense that it gives you the % of aircraft ready to carry out one type of mission. So for example, a herc with a damaged ramp that cant open, may be mission capable for carrying passengers etc).

Can the PAF afford to dedicate its already limited and dwindling cargo assets elsewhere?

Id say no. We tend to focus on PAF's jets, AD, etc, same with army, but we tend to ignore the DIRE state of our transport fleet.

Logistics win wars. Our logistics are not in great shape.

 

[hasssanali8998]

Our logistics are not in great shape.

what do you think we will do to solve that .

 

[Ak01]

what do you think we will do to solve that .

probably buy more used C130H off the market until we can get an actual replacement lol.

I do think the PAF will at some point pick up C130J's. Its the perfect transport plane for them.

OTOH, A400M is on offer too.

 

[AeronautIR]

sure.
Actually, I was thinking that both PAF and PIA were initial movers in tech, so I thought maybe this time, too, we can secure an advantage. Sure, the technical issues of adding a rocket motor are there. Maybe a cold launch could work with little modifications in the initial stage (especially for PL15). Anyway, just a thought.

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After the First Gulf War, modern airpower has become so much more resource intensive and technology dependent. In the Multi-Domain Operations you mentioned before, fighter jet is just 1 pillar of kill chain.

AI, cyber, space, drones, networking, EW etc have become an integral part of aerial combat, unlike what we saw in wars from 1914-1970s. Point is that any new tech now is more expensive, sophisticated and difficult to operationalize, especially with less resources.

In 2023, USA spent 823 billion $ on R&D, while China was second with 780 billion. The recent estimate about life cycle cost of F-35 is more than 2 Trillion.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Hello sir,

Before 2025 conflicy Rafale was mercedes and j10 was honda for many but with assist of awacs it outperformed it. Your logic is right but in science there are multiple logics and theories.

But By your logic also USA GAAS based chips must be superior to GAN based chinese chips because west quality is supposed to be superior.

The inferiority complex of asians is mind blowing though.

Did you just compare Pakistan's technological prowess with China? Pakistan's J-10, as a system, had an obvious advantage over the Rafale in a long-stick engagement.