PAF Conducts Successful Test Launch of Taimoor ALCM

[maxpane]

After the First Gulf War, modern airpower has become so much more resource intensive and technology dependent. In the Multi-Domain Operations you mentioned before, fighter jet is just 1 pillar of kill chain.

AI, cyber, space, drones, networking, EW etc have become an integral part of aerial combat, unlike what we saw in wars from 1914-1970s. Point is that any new tech now is more expensive, sophisticated and difficult to operationalize, especially with less resources.

In 2023, USA spent 823 billion $ on R&D, while China was second with 780 billion. The recent estimate about life cycle cost of F-35 is more than 2 Trillion.

in simple term we need consistent growth in economy as well as best education system

 

[side-winder]

what do you think we will do to solve that .

One thing current CAS has done since assuming the charge is to put a blanket ban on excessive C130 sorties which was a routine affair earlier. @AeronautIR would know since he has been at Jacobabad. And C130 used to be the primary source for commute (people going on leaves or other bases on attachments etc in addition to routine movement of equipment).

Now it's been reduced to bare minimum Ops requirements across the entire air force. Heck even Bases like Samungli get rare sorties even though, the requirement is very much justified due to security threats associated with travelling / equipment movement on roads.

Now this thing has actually hurt the people serving. Everybody loves to criticize this. But ofcourse, there is a greater good.

Less airframe fatique - more time for maintenance teams to maintain the serviceability - and ofcourse thousands of dollars in savings.

And when the war drums start beating - you'll need your logistics mechanism to be operating on its full potential. Yes, no victory without logistics. So yes, few more of these giants would be welcome. But again, not so much money for the sort of wish list we have.

 

[Psyko70]

Did you just compare Pakistan's technological prowess with China? Pakistan's J-10, as a system, had an obvious advantage over the Rafale in a long-stick engagement.

No i meant som is not mercedes and raad is not inferior to it. Rafale was thought to be better than j10 before war. J10 was consider counter to rafale but none had confidence.

Pakistan tech is not that inferior I also said that about tainoor alcm compared to som its on par or better.

 

[Goenitz]

After the First Gulf War, modern airpower has become so much more resource intensive and technology dependent. In the Multi-Domain Operations you mentioned before, fighter jet is just 1 pillar of kill chain.

AI, cyber, space, drones, networking, EW etc have become an integral part of aerial combat, unlike what we saw in wars from 1914-1970s. Point is that any new tech now is more expensive, sophisticated and difficult to operationalize, especially with less resources.

In 2023, USA spent 823 billion $ on R&D, while China was second with 780 billion. The recent estimate about life cycle cost of F-35 is more than 2 Trillion.

I had a guess it would be more of a cost issue than technical. Thanx for the reply. @Michael @Ak01

 

[mythbuster]

One thing current CAS has done since assuming the charge is to put a blanket ban on excessive C130 sorties which was a routine affair earlier. @AeronautIR would know since he has been at Jacobabad. And C130 used to be the primary source for commute (people going on leaves or other bases on attachments etc in addition to routine movement of equipment).

Now it's been reduced to bare minimum Ops requirements across the entire air force. Heck even Bases like Samungli get rare sorties even though, the requirement is very much justified due to security threats associated with travelling / equipment movement on roads.

Now this thing has actually hurt the people serving. Everybody loves to criticize this. But ofcourse, there is a greater good.

Less airframe fatique - more time for maintenance teams to maintain the serviceability - and ofcourse thousands of dollars in savings.

And when the war drums start beating - you'll need your logistics mechanism to be operating on its full potential. Yes, no victory without logistics. So yes, few more of these giants would be welcome. But again, not so much money for the sort of wish list we have.

I heard , don't know about it's veracity, that in the late eighties and early 90s F 16 were used to do errands for beghmaat .

 

[Michael]

In the field of launch vehicles, explosive bolts are commonly used for this purpose. However, these are not cheap. They significantly increase the manufacturing cost of the missile.

@Goenitz

Regarding the price of explosive bolts, here is a publicly available and credible news report.

Last year, a privately owned company successfully tested the YKJ-1000 hypersonic missile. They released a cost analysis of the missile. This is one of the charts from that report.


Brief translation:
============================================
Explosive bolt, price per unit: 22,000 RMB

Factory price: 15,000 RMB​

Transportation cost: 2,500 RMB (It is a hazardous material, so transportation costs are extremely high)​

Sampling inspection cost: 4,500 RMB (3 out of every 13 explosive bolts are subject to sampling inspection and subsequently scrapped, so the cost is amortized across the remaining bolts)​

Production cycle: 5 months
Production restrictions: Requires a special permit due to being a hazardous material.
============================================
The company uses electrically insulated bolts. manual production. The unit price is 8,000 RMB.

Factory price: 8,000 RMB​

Transportation cost: 0.001 RMB​

Sampling inspection cost: 0.0001 RMB​

Production cycle: 100 units per month
Production limitations: None.
* If this product is mass-produced in large quantities, the unit price will be 2,000 RMB, and 10,000 units can be produced per month.
* This product can be reused 100 to 1000 times.
============================================
@Goenitz You should have a general idea by now, right? A single missile requires multiple explosive bolts.

 

[Ibbi32]

probably buy more used C130H off the market until we can get an actual replacement lol.

I do think the PAF will at some point pick up C130J's. Its the perfect transport plane for them.

OTOH, A400M is on offer too.

What about y-20s or y-9s from china. They are comparable in role, shouldnt be too hard to get and should be cheaper overall whilst maintaining some commonality with our current fleet

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

One thing current CAS has done since assuming the charge is to put a blanket ban on excessive C130 sorties which was a routine affair earlier. @AeronautIR would know since he has been at Jacobabad. And C130 used to be the primary source for commute (people going on leaves or other bases on attachments etc in addition to routine movement of equipment).

Now it's been reduced to bare minimum Ops requirements across the entire air force. Heck even Bases like Samungli get rare sorties even though, the requirement is very much justified due to security threats associated with travelling / equipment movement on roads.

Now this thing has actually hurt the people serving. Everybody loves to criticize this. But ofcourse, there is a greater good.

Less airframe fatique - more time for maintenance teams to maintain the serviceability - and ofcourse thousands of dollars in savings.

And when the war drums start beating - you'll need your logistics mechanism to be operating on its full potential. Yes, no victory without logistics. So yes, few more of these giants would be welcome. But again, not so much money for the sort of wish list we have.

Again apology in advance for my ignorance but cannot we use heli in the transport and logistic? I guess they are more flexible as they can land without the need for runway? what if PAF procure heli for transport like 100 of them? wont that accomodate the C130?

 

[Ak01]

What about y-20s or y-9s from china. They are comparable in role, shouldnt be too hard to get and should be cheaper overall whilst maintaining some commonality with our current fleet

The Y-9 is a HORRIBLE aircraft.

Its an old, clunky design. No support infrastructure outside of China, etc. The lack of outside support infra is also valid for the Y-20. People tend to overlook this, but the PAF has access to support options for the C130 in the US, in Europe, in Africa, Asia, etc. Literally every continent.

They also have access to spare pools globally too.

You dont get this with the Y20. You're at the mercy of the Chinese, their ability to price gouge as needed and grab you by the balls. Commercially, theres nothing stopping CATIC from hiking prices during wartime, they know we're coming back to buy from them anyway... so they have more of an incentive to make more money.

With the hercs, once again, if tomorrow the PAF wanted a propellor overhaul, i can get them 10 quotes to compare. I cant do this for the Y20/Y9 though. I am stuck with the one supplier.

Plus, the PAF has tons, and tons of c-130 experience. Yes, the J gets new systems and engines, but the engines are the same as the SAAB 2000's, so another +ve, then the PAF has general platform experience for sustainment and support, so another positive.


side note,

i wonder why the PLAAF uses Garmin consumer gps for nav. Aera 795.

 

[Ak01]

Again apology in advance for my ignorance but cannot we use heli in the transport and logistic? I guess they are more flexible as they can land without the need for runway? what if PAF procure heli for transport like 100 of them? wont that accomodate the C130?

we can, but we dont have anything big enough to stuff tanks or arty for example etc. Unless you mean personnel

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

we can, but we dont have anything big enough to stuff tanks or arty for example etc. Unless you mean personnel

yes for tanks and arty we will definitely need C130 but apart from such heavy weapons the small ammunition and persons can be transported via heli?
By the way i maybe wrong but i think tank era is long gone now.. consider one small UCAV verses one tank? Drone can easily dismantle a tank and can also be used in offensive in infantry. but yes arty will be there highly mobile artilery on its own can be transported via roads?

 

[side-winder]

Again apology in advance for my ignorance but cannot we use heli in the transport and logistic? I guess they are more flexible as they can land without the need for runway? what if PAF procure heli for transport like 100 of them? wont that accomodate the C130?

No Sir. It's not a feasible solution.

Again, you are talking about new procurements. Raising of new units, new infrastructure for those new units, new support equipment for those units - all with the fact that helis can do only so much.

It's not like you want to transport daily rations. C130s lift heavy equipment. And most of PAF equipment is like that. Engines / radar equipment / aircraft spares etc. You can't transport this stuff using helis.

I guess, enough said - don't need to write in more detail.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

No Sir. It's not a feasible solution.

Again, you are talking about new procurements. Raising of new units, new infrastructure for those new units, new support equipment for those units - all with the fact that helis can do only so much.

It's not like you want to transport daily rations. C130s lift heavy equipment. And most of PAF equipment is like that. Engines / radar equipment / aircraft spares etc. You can't transport this stuff using helis.

I guess, enough said - don't need to write in more detail.

Got the idea.. It seems transporter is a must and that too in numbers

 

[krash]

My 1st month on this forum...

I saw a claim here that if no imagery is shown, it means no targets were hit. I disagreed politely, and was called all those names for not agreeing with it.

I gave a timeline of J-35 as 2026-27. Again, instead of right or wrong debate, same toxic response with snide low blows.

The topic of industrial base is far more complex than just military controlling everything. I have no problem accepting that military has a fair share of blame in all our problems. But if we actually want to find a solution, we have to dig deeper. E.g., policies of 4 governments in 1990s.

To conclude, my point is that PAF has done professionally good and it is a separate topic from political intervention by armed forces. The insults hurled at me were on the premise that I am defending the military which is not true.

Many here have been called Indian false flaggers, Army touts, Youthias, Patwaris, Yahoodi agants, and everything else in the same day on many different days. This forum is a microcosm of a society drowning in the Dunning-Kruger effect, while never having learnt how to discuss, let alone debate, beyond its childish sensibilities and hearsay.

Generally speaking, my advice would be to present your argument/counter-arguments to the fullest and then move on as soon as you identify a bad-faith lost cause. Works if you are wrong or right.

 

[Gripen9]

Why are you apologetic about defending military ?.....I am an army brat and I proudly defend my military.

My father, Chacha and brother (1 star) have also served. But we have to dispassionately look at where we stand as a country and what are the roots causes of our decline.