Hangor Class Submarine | Updates & Discussion

[Psyko70]

Not just that, 12 of their current subs are rust buckets.

so many accidents for 4th largest navy in the world, indeed.

 

[Starlord]

China's worries are larger than India's, it is not only US, they also need to take care of Japan, Korea & other US ally's, hence China is building up rapidly.

But, seeing vast experienced USN struggle against Iran, it will be far cry for China if they involve in conflict between India & Pakistan. Further, IN not needed to match PLAN by numbers, IN needs to maintain force level to keep China under check.

If China didn't came all out for Iran then the possibility of PLAN getting involved in PN vs IN conflict is negligent.

China will provide satellite & intelligence in real-time just like they done in recent conflict. But, outright involvement ? that's not going to happen.

Relax buddy, China knew damn well that they will be fighting a coalition if it comes to that and hence they are preparing like no other country, give them 10-15 years and you will see them matching with USN in Destroyers, AC's, Submarines and long range Anti-ship BM's, and that is their power. Iran is hitting several countries/Military bases so imagine what China can do specially to the countries like Japan who they resent a lot due to past war crimes.

Also also PN although weak but won't be expecting Chinese Navy to come rescue, all PN will need is information which the most important thing China can provide us, and the rest PN will have prepare for IN. Now that doesn't negate that IN can't do anything but it won't be a one sided fight as many Indians believe, and remember Indians still believe that IAF can handle PAF with just mig/m2k's and SU's while in both 2019-2025 have their booty handed to them. PN surface fleet is weak hence they are building a sizeable Submarine fleet, and as some members pointed out IN has a huge coast line to defend which IN can't properly, PN can/will find loopholes in your ASW reach to sneak a sub or 2 for attacks on your ships/infrastructures. As for Surface fleet will be mostly for defense role as they will try to deny any air attacks on ports like Karachi or Gwadar.

Also, let not forget that Pakistan also have a significant numbers of Coastal batteries with Anti ship missiles ranging between 100-400 km. Pakistan has a very small coastline and for that PN although not super strong but a formidable force and its only keep getting better with time, just a couple of systems that will be joining in next few years are Submarines, Babur Class Frigates, Jinnah Class Frigates, Sea Sultan MPA's and may as @Ak01 mention SWAT's wont be far behind.

 

[Yasser76]

Relax buddy, China knew damn well that they will be fighting a coalition if it comes to that and hence they are preparing like no other country, give them 10-15 years and you will see them matching with USN in Destroyers, AC's, Submarines and long range Anti-ship BM's, and that is their power. Iran is hitting several countries/Military bases so imagine what China can do specially to the countries like Japan who they resent a lot due to past war crimes.

Also also PN although weak but won't be expecting Chinese Navy to come rescue, all PN will need is information which the most important thing China can provide us, and the rest PN will have prepare for IN. Now that doesn't negate that IN can't do anything but it won't be a one sided fight as many Indians believe, and remember Indians still believe that IAF can handle PAF with just mig/m2k's and SU's while in both 2019-2025 have their booty handed to them. PN surface fleet is weak hence they are building a sizeable Submarine fleet, and as some members pointed out IN has a huge coast line to defend which IN can't properly, PN can/will find loopholes in your ASW reach to sneak a sub or 2 for attacks on your ships/infrastructures. As for Surface fleet will be mostly for defense role as they will try to deny any air attacks on ports like Karachi or Gwadar.

Also, let not forget that Pakistan also have a significant numbers of Coastal batteries with Anti ship missiles ranging between 100-400 km. Pakistan has a very small coastline and for that PN although not super strong but a formidable force and its only keep getting better with time, just a couple of systems that will be joining in next few years are Submarines, Babur Class Frigates, Jinnah Class Frigates, Sea Sultan MPA's and may as @Ak01 mention SWAT's wont be far behind.

Yeah, Indians keep thinking in terms of assets v assets battle.

All PN has to do is deny India access to our coast and hold them off.

 

[Bratva]

interesting note.

These boats dont have a towed array sonar.

@Quwa i wonder why/how the navy let it slide. They seemed rather big on TAS'. When the french delivered their boats to the PN, and they werent satisfied with the performance of the towed array, they had developed their own for deployment. I wonder how this aligns with the Yuans. Perhaps these really arent positioned as an ASW asset, and more so anti shippers, thus leaving a gap for a ASW asset in the PN, perhaps which is where the SWATs/Next gen subs come in?

just some food for thought

Or perhaps Pakistan would deploy their own inhouse towed array on the subs?

 

[Starlord]

Yeah, Indians keep thinking in terms of assets v assets battle.

All PN has to do is deny India access to our coast and hold them off.

I wonder if PN has been making plans to go on offensive once the initial push is stopped in case of a full scale war, I believe the Submarine force will be the part of the offensive in case of any, which can include SWAT's to insert SSGN teams on ports or naval bases to disrupt the operations. I think that PN should see if they can lease a older SSBN sub from China like India leased a Russian sub, and we can keep it on the back as the last resort option like MAD.

 

[Yasser76]

I wonder if PN has been making plans to go on offensive once the initial push is stopped in case of a full scale war, I believe the Submarine force will be the part of the offensive in case of any, which can include SWAT's to insert SSGN teams on ports or naval bases to disrupt the operations. I think that PN should see if they can lease a older SSBN sub from China like India leased a Russian sub, and we can keep it on the back as the last resort option like MAD.

Strategically we have little to gain, keep IN away from shores is enough.

Politically and morale wise taking out a carrier would be great, but even IN carriers right now present no real significant threat. The MIG-29Ks are in terrible shape with radar issues and servicability hovering around 40% bit in terms of the effect on morale, taking one down and the 1,000 odd sailors and aircrew on it would be a massive blow to them

 

[Starlord]

Strategically we have little to gain, keep IN away from shores is enough.

Politically and morale wise taking out a carrier would be great, but even IN carriers right now present no real significant threat. The MIG-29Ks are in terrible shape with radar issues and servicability hovering around 40% bit in terms of the effect on morale, taking one down and the 1,000 odd sailors and aircrew on it would be a massive blow to them

I think what happen in may, and now what Iranians did with USN AC i believe IN will be keeping their AC far far away as possible, like you say even a successful hit to their AC will be a major boost for Pakistan and humiliation for IN, heck even USN knew it hence they keep their AC far from Iranian coast despite it been 10x more powerful than IN's Carrier.

 

[Yasser76]

I think what happen in may, and now what Iranians did with USN AC i believe IN will be keeping their AC far far away as possible, like you say even a successful hit to their AC will be a major boost for Pakistan and humiliation for IN, heck even USN knew it hence they keep their AC far from Iranian coast despite it been 10x more powerful than IN's Carrier.

Yes, this whole war is showing the limits of carrier power when you cannot control sea lanes. Same happened last year in May, IN's carrier left port heading to Pakistan and returned after just one day, no one explained why, my guess is that caught wind of being tracked by a Pak Sub...

 

[Starlord]

Yes, this whole war is showing the limits of carrier power when you cannot control sea lanes. Same happened last year in May, IN's carrier left port heading to Pakistan and returned after just one day, no one explained why, my guess is that caught wind of being tracked by a Pak Sub...

I think @Oscar wrote a post about it, but yes IN carrier sailed towards Pakistan, and i remember some Indians were jumping that now Karachi is gone blah blah, and then it went back even faster. Plus the USN carrier which double the size of IN Carrier with 10x times of fire power and protection still was kept hundreds of km's from the Iran coast line, even though Iran can't sink it but even a missile hit on a AC caught on video and shared around the world will be a huge morale boost for Iranians, Americans know it hence they play it safe.

 

[Ak01]

Or perhaps Pakistan would deploy their own inhouse towed array on the subs?

Perhaps, but it would require them to punch a hole in the sub, design the fairings, etc etc etc. I think it’s very very unlikely/impossible at this point

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

When China inducts its new Type 095 (Sui-class) submarines, will it then offer the Type 093A/B Shang-class to the Pakistan Navy? @Ak01 ?

 

[Ak01]

When China inducts its new Type 095 (Sui-class) submarines, will it then offer the Type 093A/B Shang-class to the Pakistan Navy? @Ak01 ?

i think the hopes of any nuke boats from China should be shelved.

 

[kmc_chacko]

P75I will materialise at a similar pace to PN’s original sub program.

So, it’ll be pretty evenly matched. Except, in has a coast far larger to protect and two countries to keep an eye on…

execution of P75I & P76 project will almost have 1-2 years gap, and will run in parallel, just like Nilgiri-class frigate two different shipyards will be building it, and positive point is IN will be quickly up the numbers.

Yep, larger coast to protect will be a challenge, that's the reason IN is contracting multiple size ASW ships to CSL, GRSE & LT shipyards.

How can someone forget that indian navy 6+6 wont all be going to face Pakistan. India against pakistan has "size of sea to protect" vs "Pakistan 11 subs and most of them AIP" Issue.

Indian currently has 19 submarines and India has to keep some free for china. so I dont think India will be able to field 6 submarines against Pakistan let alone 10 or 12.

For china India needs to have at least 20 submarines and then whatever else for Pakistan.

Yes, Pakistan will have advantage over "size of sea to protect"

Yes, numbers matter and that's the reason IN attempting to build multiple subs at different shipyards. presently GoI sanctioned to build additional 6 SSBN + 6 SSN + 18 SSKs over next 20 years, which will eventually almost match your estimate of IN to have 30+ subs by 2040.

 

[Yasser76]

execution of P75I & P76 project will almost have 1-2 years gap, and will run in parallel, just like Nilgiri-class frigate two different shipyards will be building it, and positive point is IN will be quickly up the numbers.

Yep, larger coast to protect will be a challenge, that's the reason IN is contracting multiple size ASW ships to CSL, GRSE & LT shipyards.



Yes, Pakistan will have advantage over "size of sea to protect"

Yes, numbers matter and that's the reason IN attempting to build multiple subs at different shipyards. presently GoI sanctioned to build additional 6 SSBN + 6 SSN + 18 SSKs over next 20 years, which will eventually almost match your estimate of IN to have 30+ subs by 2040.

But by 204 PN will have 85 SSBNs and 240 SSKs, honest, read about it on social media

 

[Ak01]

execution of P75I & P76 project will almost have 1-2 years gap, and will run in parallel, just like Nilgiri-class frigate two different shipyards will be building it, and positive point is IN will be quickly up the numbers.

Yes, but these are plans , and as we know, plans never go the way they're intended.

Has development been completed? Because the original estimate was 2026/2027*. We're in 26 now. The first boat, ALL GOING SMOOTHLY would be delivered in 7 years.

*"Six submarines are planned with a top L&T official stating that the design phase can be completed by 2026-27"

You see there, Mr Top Official suggests it CAN be completed by then, not that it WILL, so heck, even the completion of the design timeline is up in the air... Let alone construction times.


In 7 years, all 8 hangors will have completed delivery.

In 7 years, the first of the SWATS would be nearing delivery.

So thats atleast, 9 new subs inducted. With another 4 awaiting delivery (swats).

Not to mention the then development and construction of a new submarine class with a foreign partner.

No matter how you frame it, IN can be up in numbers all it wants, but the PN will have a 15-20 strong SSK fleet, directed ONLY at India.

OTOH, Indian Navy will have a what, 20-25 strong sub fleet? Which would need to be split between China and Pakistan?

Yep, larger coast to protect will be a challenge, that's the reason IN is contracting multiple size ASW ships to CSL, GRSE & LT shipyards.

Yes, but as discussed above, ASW is not a silver bullet. Its extremely tough, hence the value of submarines. You can throw as much as you want at them, but those ASW ships will need to patrol a huge amount of water and are extremely vunerable. None of them carry any sort of AD kit, PN's hangors will carry Anti Shippers, YJ-18's, then what?

Yes, Pakistan will have advantage over "size of sea to protect"

Yes, numbers matter and that's the reason IN attempting to build multiple subs at different shipyards. presently GoI sanctioned to build additional 6 SSBN + 6 SSN + 18 SSKs over next 20 years, which will eventually almost match your estimate of IN to have 30+ subs by 2040.

30 subs in the next 20 years is not a stretch, rather, pure delusion.

The designs have not even been completed, and you're estimating induction within 20 years of the whole fleet. Get real. You can frame it how you'd like, but the IN will not be able to impose any sort of naval blockade on Pakistan, they know this, you know this, i know this. It would be far too dangerous.