Turkish Engine Programs
- Thread starter hyperman
- Start date
Sinan
Registered Member
It's a hoax, they showed a F-110 engine.
Merzifonlu
Registered Member
+1
They claim to have produced six engines, but not a single one is on display! Okay, you may not have fully manufactured the internal components of the engine yet, but at least the outer shell exists. Because that's the first thing produced.
They could have displayed that outer shell, or something similar. Instead of doing that, they're treating us like fools by displaying a used GE F110! The reputation of the Turkish defense industry couldn't be damaged more than this. Unforgivable.
Sinan
Registered Member
They can't produce anything. They don't have facilities to produce anything.
When asked they say we have 24 facilities. They are counting maintenance facilities like the one in Kayseri or ASFAT which produces tracks, for tracked vehiclers.
hyperman
INT'L MOD
- Thread starter
- #396
Its a research Laboratory, mass production is done by others. Like how Tubitak designs the missile then another contractor builds the design.
My guess is, they will be the ones to reverse engineer and test the engine, then pass it on to another entity for mass production.
Merzifonlu
Registered Member
I have no proof for that claim. But what I know for sure is that they displayed a used F110 at the show without even bothering to produce a mock-up. It would have been milder if they had just insulted the people who came to watch the show!
Sinan
Registered Member
Hey, you are just runnnig logic.
In reality, all the other defence companies & Secretariat of Defence Industries were in shock and they told they have no knowledge on these projects.
You can't "reverse engineer" without any tools, this is not reverse engineering a cheese sandvich. They don't have tools for that. By tools for example, you need vast metarlugical experience. TEI founded a whole new building for that, just to establish metarlugical library.
Turkey unveiled the Güçhan turbofan at SAHA EXPO, claiming a thrust rating of 42,000 pounds—the same as the F-35's F135 engine. The reaction was predictably divided: some shouted, "They've outdone everyone," while others said, "It's just a mockup from an exhibition." Both extremes are misguided. And, more importantly, both obscure the main point: there's nothing extraordinary about Güçhan. They have a factory, a school, and thirty years of accumulated experience—and they just went and made it. Let's look at how.
What's announced
Güçhan: 42,000 pounds of thrust in afterburner, 0.68 bypass ratio, airflow rate of approximately 420 pounds per second, diameter of approximately 46.5 inches. Developed by the Ministry of National Defense's Research and Development Center. Six prototypes have been built, with qualification tests scheduled for 2026.One fair disclaimer: 42,000 is the program's target thrust, not a figure measured on a test bench. Qualification, which confirms the thrust, is still to come. This isn't a reason to disbelieve—it's simply a precise understanding of the stage.
The key thing about this engine is that it didn't just pop up out of nowhere and wasn't copied from the F135. The Güçhan grew out of the American F110—the same engine that powers the F-16.Turkish industry produced the F110 under license for its F-16s for almost thirty years. And that's crucial. Licensed production is completely different from disassembling someone else's engine and guessing what it's made of. All the documentation, tooling, trained people, process charts, and streamlined processes were in place. They knew the F110 better than any reverse engineering could have—they knew it "from the inside." And they knew exactly which components were off-limits under the license: the hot section, single-crystal turbine blades, and certain materials.The logic behind it was simple. They took an architecture they knew down to the last bolt and made two steps simultaneously. First, they filled the gaps in the license with their own developments. Second, they scaled up the design to handle significantly higher thrust.
What's announced
Güçhan: 42,000 pounds of thrust in afterburner, 0.68 bypass ratio, airflow rate of approximately 420 pounds per second, diameter of approximately 46.5 inches. Developed by the Ministry of National Defense's Research and Development Center. Six prototypes have been built, with qualification tests scheduled for 2026.One fair disclaimer: 42,000 is the program's target thrust, not a figure measured on a test bench. Qualification, which confirms the thrust, is still to come. This isn't a reason to disbelieve—it's simply a precise understanding of the stage.
The key thing about this engine is that it didn't just pop up out of nowhere and wasn't copied from the F135. The Güçhan grew out of the American F110—the same engine that powers the F-16.Turkish industry produced the F110 under license for its F-16s for almost thirty years. And that's crucial. Licensed production is completely different from disassembling someone else's engine and guessing what it's made of. All the documentation, tooling, trained people, process charts, and streamlined processes were in place. They knew the F110 better than any reverse engineering could have—they knew it "from the inside." And they knew exactly which components were off-limits under the license: the hot section, single-crystal turbine blades, and certain materials.The logic behind it was simple. They took an architecture they knew down to the last bolt and made two steps simultaneously. First, they filled the gaps in the license with their own developments. Second, they scaled up the design to handle significantly higher thrust.
How exactly it grew—a technical analysis
This is where it gets interesting, and it's important to understand the mechanics, not just accept the "increase.
"The F110 produces about 29,000 pounds of thrust. The Güçhan is claimed to produce 42,000—an increase of about 45%. Where does this increase come from?
Turbofan thrust is roughly equal to airflow multiplied by specific thrust. This means the 45% increase must be achieved by one of two factors—either the cycle quality (specific thrust) or the air quantity (flow).
Let's calculate specific thrust. The F110 produces 29,000 pounds of thrust by 270 pounds of air per second—that's about 107. The Güçhan produces 42,000 by 420—that's about 100. So, the Güçhan's specific thrust is even slightly lower than the F110's. The cycle didn't get "hotter" or more efficient—quite the opposite.
The conclusion is clear: all the thrust gain is due to the amount of air. The flow rate increased from 270 to 420 pounds per second—a 55% increase. That's where all the added power comes from.
And pumping one and a half times more air through the engine is impossible without physically increasing the hardware. Air flow rate is the cross-sectional area multiplied by the flow velocity and density. If you don't increase the flow velocity, you'll run into stall and lockup. Density is determined by altitude and airspeed. There's only one solution—the cross-sectional area of the fan, or its diameter. A 55% increase in flow rate requires approximately a 24% increase in fan diameter.
This pulls everything else along with it. A larger fan pushes more air, meaning the compressor needs to be redesigned to handle the increased flow (hence the phrase "different compression ratio"), the combustion chamber needs to be enlarged, and the turbine needs to be enlarged. The 420-pound-per-second core is physically larger and longer than the 270-pound-per-second core. The engine has grown significantly—both in fan diameter and in length. Otherwise, there's simply no room for one and a half volumes of air.
This increase can't be compensated for by any "dense packaging"—the packaging doesn't provide any thrust at all; it merely helps neatly arrange the components. The actual increase in size plays a significant role.
This is where it gets interesting, and it's important to understand the mechanics, not just accept the "increase.
"The F110 produces about 29,000 pounds of thrust. The Güçhan is claimed to produce 42,000—an increase of about 45%. Where does this increase come from?
Turbofan thrust is roughly equal to airflow multiplied by specific thrust. This means the 45% increase must be achieved by one of two factors—either the cycle quality (specific thrust) or the air quantity (flow).
Let's calculate specific thrust. The F110 produces 29,000 pounds of thrust by 270 pounds of air per second—that's about 107. The Güçhan produces 42,000 by 420—that's about 100. So, the Güçhan's specific thrust is even slightly lower than the F110's. The cycle didn't get "hotter" or more efficient—quite the opposite.
The conclusion is clear: all the thrust gain is due to the amount of air. The flow rate increased from 270 to 420 pounds per second—a 55% increase. That's where all the added power comes from.
And pumping one and a half times more air through the engine is impossible without physically increasing the hardware. Air flow rate is the cross-sectional area multiplied by the flow velocity and density. If you don't increase the flow velocity, you'll run into stall and lockup. Density is determined by altitude and airspeed. There's only one solution—the cross-sectional area of the fan, or its diameter. A 55% increase in flow rate requires approximately a 24% increase in fan diameter.
This pulls everything else along with it. A larger fan pushes more air, meaning the compressor needs to be redesigned to handle the increased flow (hence the phrase "different compression ratio"), the combustion chamber needs to be enlarged, and the turbine needs to be enlarged. The 420-pound-per-second core is physically larger and longer than the 270-pound-per-second core. The engine has grown significantly—both in fan diameter and in length. Otherwise, there's simply no room for one and a half volumes of air.
This increase can't be compensated for by any "dense packaging"—the packaging doesn't provide any thrust at all; it merely helps neatly arrange the components. The actual increase in size plays a significant role.
What the photos confirm
Photos of the Güçhan next to the F110 clearly confirm this picture.The Güçhan's fan is noticeably different, more modern: wide-chord blades, fewer in number than those of the classic F110, and a one-piece transition from the blades to the hub—a blisk design, where the blades and disk are made from a single piece, without a locking mechanism. Blisk design results in fewer parts, lower weight, higher efficiency, and greater resistance to surge. The F110 of the late 1970s didn't have such a fan—it's a next-generation solution, and Turkey has mastered it.
It's also clear that the Güçhan's fan section is large relative to the core—more bulged than that of the F110. This is precisely what's needed for higher air flow. And the engine itself, when viewed from the side, is elongated, with a long middle section—which is consistent with the redesigned, elongated compressor. Everything fits the calculation: more air means a larger fan, making the entire engine larger and longer.
So the Güçhan isn't a "reworked F110" or a modification. It's a new engine, designed in the F110's architecture and style—the next, larger member of the line. And that's precisely why it was developed so quickly, with six prototypes immediately available: they didn't invent the configuration from scratch, but rather developed one that had been mastered over thirty years.
Photos of the Güçhan next to the F110 clearly confirm this picture.The Güçhan's fan is noticeably different, more modern: wide-chord blades, fewer in number than those of the classic F110, and a one-piece transition from the blades to the hub—a blisk design, where the blades and disk are made from a single piece, without a locking mechanism. Blisk design results in fewer parts, lower weight, higher efficiency, and greater resistance to surge. The F110 of the late 1970s didn't have such a fan—it's a next-generation solution, and Turkey has mastered it.
It's also clear that the Güçhan's fan section is large relative to the core—more bulged than that of the F110. This is precisely what's needed for higher air flow. And the engine itself, when viewed from the side, is elongated, with a long middle section—which is consistent with the redesigned, elongated compressor. Everything fits the calculation: more air means a larger fan, making the entire engine larger and longer.
So the Güçhan isn't a "reworked F110" or a modification. It's a new engine, designed in the F110's architecture and style—the next, larger member of the line. And that's precisely why it was developed so quickly, with six prototypes immediately available: they didn't invent the configuration from scratch, but rather developed one that had been mastered over thirty years.
Why is this a serious program, not just a show pitch?
Several technical factors demonstrate this.
Nodal testing has been completed. Before prototype assembly, over 30 rig tests of individual components—the compressor, turbine, chamber, and blades—were completed. This is the correct engineering sequence: first, you test each component, then assemble the entire, expensive engine. The six prototypes are the result of the validation already completed.
The single-crystal blades are our own. Nilüfer Kuzulu, Director of the Ministry of Defense's Research Center, stated bluntly: the turbine blades are single-crystal, manufactured in Turkey. This is the highest technological hurdle in all of aircraft engine manufacturing—a component that has stymied entire programs in other countries for decades. Mastering single-crystal casting is more significant than any thrust figure on a poster.
Thermal barrier coatings are a separate program. A separate contract has been awarded for a next-generation thermal barrier coating using EB-PVD technology. Such a coating can't be shown at an exhibition—it requires years of materials science work. If they're investing in it, it means the program has a foundation.
Blisk has been mastered. The modern Blisk fan design isn't a legacy of the F110, but a next-generation technology, and it's visible in Güçhan's photographs. This is another mastered building block, without which a scaled-up engine can't be built.
And separately, about trust in numbers. Over the past twenty years, the Turkish defense industry has developed a characteristic habit: don't announce anything until they're convinced. First, the hardware and testing, then the presentation. This is evident across all areas—from drones to missiles. Therefore, the announced £42,000 is most likely a goal that the program already considers achievable, rather than a figure for a catchy headline. The stand will, as expected, confirm it.
Several technical factors demonstrate this.
Nodal testing has been completed. Before prototype assembly, over 30 rig tests of individual components—the compressor, turbine, chamber, and blades—were completed. This is the correct engineering sequence: first, you test each component, then assemble the entire, expensive engine. The six prototypes are the result of the validation already completed.
The single-crystal blades are our own. Nilüfer Kuzulu, Director of the Ministry of Defense's Research Center, stated bluntly: the turbine blades are single-crystal, manufactured in Turkey. This is the highest technological hurdle in all of aircraft engine manufacturing—a component that has stymied entire programs in other countries for decades. Mastering single-crystal casting is more significant than any thrust figure on a poster.
Thermal barrier coatings are a separate program. A separate contract has been awarded for a next-generation thermal barrier coating using EB-PVD technology. Such a coating can't be shown at an exhibition—it requires years of materials science work. If they're investing in it, it means the program has a foundation.
Blisk has been mastered. The modern Blisk fan design isn't a legacy of the F110, but a next-generation technology, and it's visible in Güçhan's photographs. This is another mastered building block, without which a scaled-up engine can't be built.
And separately, about trust in numbers. Over the past twenty years, the Turkish defense industry has developed a characteristic habit: don't announce anything until they're convinced. First, the hardware and testing, then the presentation. This is evident across all areas—from drones to missiles. Therefore, the announced £42,000 is most likely a goal that the program already considers achievable, rather than a figure for a catchy headline. The stand will, as expected, confirm it.
What does this mean for KAAN?
The Güçhan is an F110-derived engine with its own hot section, and its profile is predictable. Specific thrust and fuel consumption will be closer to the F110 than the F135. For the KAAN fighter with two such engines, this means a high thrust-to-weight ratio and good acceleration performance, but less fuel efficiency and range than benchmarks like the F-22.
This isn't a death sentence, but rather the profile of a reliable, working fifth-generation aircraft. For the first indigenous program of this class, this is the most sensible outcome: not a clean slate, not a blind copy of the most complex foreign engine, but a scaling up of a proven engine, with its own critical technologies. Further, as the series accumulates experience, an upgrade with a hotter cycle is possible, and the gap with the top models will narrow.
The Güçhan is an F110-derived engine with its own hot section, and its profile is predictable. Specific thrust and fuel consumption will be closer to the F110 than the F135. For the KAAN fighter with two such engines, this means a high thrust-to-weight ratio and good acceleration performance, but less fuel efficiency and range than benchmarks like the F-22.
This isn't a death sentence, but rather the profile of a reliable, working fifth-generation aircraft. For the first indigenous program of this class, this is the most sensible outcome: not a clean slate, not a blind copy of the most complex foreign engine, but a scaling up of a proven engine, with its own critical technologies. Further, as the series accumulates experience, an upgrade with a hotter cycle is possible, and the gap with the top models will narrow.
Güçhan shouldn't be either idolized or ridiculed. This is real hardware: six prototypes, completed nodal testing, proprietary single-crystal blades, mastered blisk technology, and its own coating program. The engine evolved from the F110 architecture, mastered over thirty years, and scaled up for significantly higher airflow—hence the larger, modern fan and extended core. All the mechanics are transparent: more air—larger fan—bigger engine. No magic there.
Exactly one thing remains open—the actual thrust and endurance at the 2026 qualifying round. This isn't covered by articles or photographs, but only by the rig itself.
And the conclusion is broader. Güçhan isn't an isolated sensation or a miracle. It's the logical result of the country having a fully-fledged industry: a factory, a design school, thirty years of production experience, and mastered critical technologies—single-crystal blades, coatings, blisk technology. With all this in place, an engine of this class ceases to be a feat and becomes a simple engineering exercise. They took what they knew and made it happen. That's the secret—and the main news: Turkey now has an industry capable of doing such a thing.
Exactly one thing remains open—the actual thrust and endurance at the 2026 qualifying round. This isn't covered by articles or photographs, but only by the rig itself.
And the conclusion is broader. Güçhan isn't an isolated sensation or a miracle. It's the logical result of the country having a fully-fledged industry: a factory, a design school, thirty years of production experience, and mastered critical technologies—single-crystal blades, coatings, blisk technology. With all this in place, an engine of this class ceases to be a feat and becomes a simple engineering exercise. They took what they knew and made it happen. That's the secret—and the main news: Turkey now has an industry capable of doing such a thing.
1. Input Data
Güçhan (as announced at SAHA EXPO):- Thrust: 42,000 lbf (with afterburner)
- Bypass ratio (BPR): 0.68
- Airflow: ~420 lb/s
- Diameter: ~46.5"
- Developer: MSB ARGE (MoND R&D Center)
- Status: 6 prototypes, qualification — 2026
F110-GE-129 (for comparison):
- Afterburning thrust: ~29,000 lbf
- Dry thrust: ~17,000 lbf
- Airflow: ~270 lb/s
- Diameter: ~46.5"
- Length: ~4.62 m
- BPR: 0.76
- OPR: ~30
Note on status: 42,000 lbf is the program's target figure, not yet confirmed on the test stand. Everything below concerns design origin, not a confirmed result.
2. Base Equation and Framing the Question
Turbofan thrust, to first approximation:F ≈ ṁ_air × Fs
where ṁ_air is mass airflow, Fs is specific thrust (lbf per lb/s).
Güçhan's gain over the F110-GE-129:
42,000 / 29,000 = 1.45 → +45%
This +45% must be obtained through one of two factors: an increase in Fs (cycle quality) or an increase in ṁ_air (airflow). We check both.
3. Specific Thrust: The Cycle Is NOT Improved
Fs(F110) = 29,000 / 270 ≈ 107 lbf/(lb/s)Fs(Güçhan) = 42,000 / 420 ≈ 100 lbf/(lb/s)
Güçhan's Fs is ~6.5% lower. For comparison — Fs of P&W fifth-generation engines (F119/F135) ≈ 115–130. Güçhan is nowhere near that bracket.
Conclusion 3. Güçhan's gas-dynamic cycle, in terms of refinement, is at the F110 level or slightly below — not at the F119/F135 level. No thrust gain was obtained through specific thrust. This rules out the version "the Turks made an F135-class hotter/more efficient cycle."
4. Airflow: The Entire Gain Is Here
Since Fs did not increase, the entire thrust gain is in ṁ_air:ṁ_air(F110) = 270 lb/s
ṁ_air(Güçhan) = 420 lb/s
420 / 270 = 1.556 → +55.6%
Cross-check via thrust: 270 × 107 ≈ 28,900 lbf (F110, consistent). 420 × 100 = 42,000 lbf (Güçhan, consistent). The balance closes on airflow.
Conclusion 4. The source of all of Güçhan's added thrust is an increase in mass airflow of ~55%. This is not an "improvement" of the F110; it is the F110 scaled up by airflow.
5. Geometry: +55% Airflow Requires Physical Growth
Mass airflow:ṁ_air = ρ × A × V
ρ — inlet density (set by flight altitude/speed, not controlled by the designer), V — axial flow velocity, A — fan flow-path area.
V cannot be raised: axial velocity in the fan/LPC is already near the gas-dynamic limit; increasing it leads to stall and choking (tip Mach number → 1). The margin is single-digit percent, not tens of percent.
Therefore the +55% in ṁ_air is realized through A:
A_Güçhan / A_F110 ≈ 1.55
D ~ √A → D_Güçhan / D_F110 ≈ √1.55 ≈ 1.24
A ~24% increase in working fan diameter is required.
Check whether this can be hidden within an unchanged external envelope through "tight packaging." On the F110, with ~46.5" external diameter, the working fan diameter is ~40" (the radius gives up ~3.25" to casing wall + structural frame + radial tip clearance). Packaging measures (thinner wall, minimal clearance, dense frame) can realistically reclaim ~0.5–0.8" per side → ~1–1.6" in diameter → +3…5% of working diameter. The requirement is +24%.
Conclusion 5. Packaging measures close only ~3–5% of the required 24%. The rest is physical growth. Güçhan's external fan-section diameter is almost certainly larger than the F110's; the "46.5"" in sources is likely a rounding or a mounting/interface dimension, not the fan diameter. "Tight packaging" as an explanation for the gain is untenable: packaging does not create airflow.
6. What a Larger Fan Drags Along With It
A larger fan and +55% airflow cascade into requirements for:- Compressor: rework for the increased flow, otherwise stall / stage mismatch. Consistent with the official wording about a "different pressure ratio." Stage count / stage loading likely changed.
- Combustor: proportionally greater mass flow → larger combustor volume.
- Turbine: greater gas flow → larger turbine; increased work → higher heat-resistance requirements (see Section 7).
- Length: added/resized compressor stages + larger combustor + larger turbine → axial dimension grows. A gas generator for 420 lb/s is longer than one for 270 lb/s.
7. The Hot Section: Where the Turks' Own Work Is
Scaling by airflow yields thrust, but the turbine, under the increased work, requires heat resistance. Here are the indigenous technologies (official, per the statement of the MoND R&D Center director):- Single-crystal turbine blades — indigenous production. Elimination of grain boundaries → higher metal operating temperature, creep resistance, service life. A top-tier technological barrier; a narrow global club (USA, UK, France, Germany, Japan, Russia, China).
- EB-PVD thermal barrier coatings — a separate contract for a next-generation coating. Columnar structure, low thermal conductivity, thermal-cycling resistance. Allows gas temperature above the melting point of the substrate metal.
- Blisk (integrally bladed rotor) — a one-piece "blades + disk" construction without dovetail attachment. Visible on photos of Güçhan's fan: wide-chord blades, low blade count, integral transition into the hub. The F110 of the late 1970s uses dovetail attachment; the blisk is the next generation.
8. Confirmation from Photographic Material
What is visible in photos of Güçhan vs F110 (qualitatively; exact dimensions cannot be extracted from photos due to perspective):- Güçhan's fan — wide-chord, low blade count, integral transition into the hub (blisk). The F110 — more blades, narrower chord, dovetail attachment. The cold section is reworked, not inherited.
- Güçhan's fan section is large relative to the gas generator — "bulged" more than the F110's. Consistent with the calculated growth of fan area A (Section 5).
- The engine is elongated, with an extended mid-section. Consistent with a reworked/lengthened compressor (Section 6).
- Round variable nozzle, exposed external plumbing — the GE-school signature (F110), not P&W (the F119 has a 2D nozzle, concealed plumbing).
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