PAF SAM based Air Defense System - News, Discussion & Updates

[Toxic]

We got soyabeen for f16s bro!

This shit being repeated in the big 26

 

[Ak01]

We got soyabeen for f16s bro!

Which is why I don't see PAF ever going for new builds from the USA again, or ever (imho).

but the paf did? they ordered new airframes after that?

This soyabean stuff surely has to die down at some point, while not ideal, pakistan specifically requested the soya beans/oil as part of the 30% commodity.

Anyway, they did buy new airframes after it. I think no new airframes will come, but for a different reason, theres just a backlog of about 10-12y i believe... used airframes are economically far more sensible

 

[kimjongun]

IMO indian had a way better strategy in terms of AD ,
Got S125 SAMs protecting all of its airbases , big or small.
They have been producing the akash at home for decades and have a huge inventory .
Now they have domestic production of the Barak 8 too which is ARH .
While we missed opportunities Couldnt get SPADA in enough numbers for a potential production line here , missed the Umkhonto SAM (now its widely used in South african frigates in large numbers) and now the HQ16 thingy

 

[hasssanali8998]

IMO indian had a way better strategy in terms of AD ,
Got S125 SAMs protecting all of its airbases , big or small.
They have been producing the akash at home for decades and have a huge inventory .
Now they have domestic production of the Barak 8 too which is ARH .
While we missed opportunities Couldnt get SPADA in enough numbers for a potential production line here , missed the Umkhonto SAM (now its widely used in South african frigates in large numbers) and now the HQ16 thingy

in GIDS LOMADS we believe

 

[SD 10]

Which is why I don't see PAF ever going for new builds from the USA again, or ever (imho).

That would be the wise choice!

 

[Princeps]

we dont know, because we dont know what is even onboard!

the reality is, China NEVER exports the systems it uses domestically, unless it has a better option.

PL-15's after the next gen VLRAAMs
PN got the oldest flights of 054'A's possible, with a new variant now released
VT4's, SAM's, etc etc

aircraft is a bit of a weird one, but sensors and systems can be downgraded without changes to the airframe.

But its true, China does strip down systems for export, nobody can deny that

PA trialed VT-4, requested various upgrades and additions, and they got basically the best variant of VT-4, far better than what the Thais had. China later started advertising PA spec VT-4 as VT-4A1.

Pretty much the same thing with Z-10ME. PA didn't like the base Z-10 so they requested a new variant and Z-10ME ended up better than even PLA spec Z-10s at the time.

So clearly china is willing to comply and sell better stuff if the buyer insists and can pay for it.

With Type 054As, I am willing to bet if PN had requested a different missile and radar arrangement they would have gotten it at extra cost. PN simply went for the "safe" legacy option.

Similarly, PA had the option to go for LY-70s or Sky Dragon 50, but they went for the widely used HQ-16s instead.

 

[Ak01]

PA trialed VT-4, requested various upgrades and additions, and they got basically the best variant of VT-4, far better than what the Thais had. China later started advertising PA spec VT-4 as VT-4A1.

Pretty much the same thing with Z-10ME. PA didn't like the base Z-10 so they requested a new variant and Z-10ME ended up better than even PLA spec Z-10s at the time.

So clearly china is willing to comply and sell better stuff if the buyer insists and can pay for it.

With Type 054As, I am willing to bet if PN had requested a different missile and radar arrangement they would have gotten it at extra cost. PN simply went for the "safe" legacy option.

Similarly, PA had the option to go for LY-70s or Sky Dragon 50, but they went for the widely used HQ-16s instead.

this is your misunderstanding of what i am referring to.

the VT4 is an export platform anyway, an example of what i was referring to was the sale of FY-IV ERA after the PLA itself got FY-V.

Z-10ME is another misleading interpretation on your part. The equiptment onboard is not seen on the Chinese variants, its not used by the PLA, thus it doesnt matter, its not relevant.

HQ-16's exported after HQ-16B/C developed, and then future MRSAMS

HQ-9's exported after HQ-9B developed, then the B exported when HQ-9C developed.

HQ-19's on the export catalogue after the new variant developed.

Everything the Pak armed forces has purchased from China is at the very best a previous level to what the PLA operates itself.

J-10's being the lowest tier of PLAAF, were downgraded and export.

KJ-500's available for export, after the next generation was developed via the KJ-700/Y-20 AEW.

PL-15 available after PL-16.

054A available when 054A2 was developed

Hangor class being a derivative of the Yuan Class, after being exported as S20.

Skydragon 50 is not in use by the PLA. LY-70 is an export only system once again.

If PN was only choosing safe options, it would not have been the first user export of CAMM-ER, would not have embarked on Jinnah class or a SWAT program etc.

none of what you've said detracts from my point, China only exports systems that are behind what they deploy domestically.

 

[Princeps]

China only exports systems that are behind what they deploy domestically.

Fair enough and that's expected

My point (though slightly unrelated) was that china is willing customize stuff and not all of our poor procurement decisions are china's fault

 

[Ak01]

Fair enough and that's expected

My point (though slightly unrelated) was that china is willing customize stuff and not all of our poor procurement decisions are china's fault

sure, but that, as you said is unrelated. I dont deny that in theory PAF could chuck a ton of money at CAC and create a super J-10 superior to the chinese one, but you will never recieve the same systems as them!

 

[puttputt]

There is a lot of things the Turks can't sell to Pakistan, they don't have any fighters on offer, @Oscar mentioned that SIPER was being looked at but it was too exorbitantly priced for what it offered, I think it's one of the Reasons that even Azerbaijan has gotten HQ-9Bs.

I don't think Pakistan has ever gotten something from the Turks that one can say was better then what the Chinese were offering.

Turkish stuff will generally always carry a high price tag because there's a full-out R&D overhead distributed across a few orders (mostly Turkish).

The most feasible and impactful way to engage with the Turks is to collaborate on the technologies underneath the solutions, e.g., not SIPER, but the dual-pulse rockets; not KAAN, but the engines, radar TRMs, optronics, etc; and so on. If we start developing real industrial expertise and infrastructure in these things, then the R&D and defence development on top of that becomes much easier and cost-effective for us in the long term. Turks won't have an issue with this either -- quite the opposite -- because they know these key inputs demand a lot of resources and can't easily be scaled by them alone. You bring Pakistan and others into the mix and this stuff gets developed, and everyone has an interest in seeing it grow even if they design and build different things atop of it (e.g., KAAN in Turkiye, PFX in Pakistan).

 

[rafale]

this is your misunderstanding of what i am referring to.

the VT4 is an export platform anyway, an example of what i was referring to was the sale of FY-IV ERA after the PLA itself got FY-V.

Z-10ME is another misleading interpretation on your part. The equiptment onboard is not seen on the Chinese variants, its not used by the PLA, thus it doesnt matter, its not relevant.

HQ-16's exported after HQ-16B/C developed, and then future MRSAMS

HQ-9's exported after HQ-9B developed, then the B exported when HQ-9C developed.

HQ-19's on the export catalogue after the new variant developed.

Everything the Pak armed forces has purchased from China is at the very best a previous level to what the PLA operates itself.

J-10's being the lowest tier of PLAAF, were downgraded and export.

KJ-500's available for export, after the next generation was developed via the KJ-700/Y-20 AEW.

PL-15 available after PL-16.

054A available when 054A2 was developed

Hangor class being a derivative of the Yuan Class, after being exported as S20.

Skydragon 50 is not in use by the PLA. LY-70 is an export only system once again.

If PN was only choosing safe options, it would not have been the first user export of CAMM-ER, would not have embarked on Jinnah class or a SWAT program etc.

none of what you've said detracts from my point, China only exports systems that are behind what they deploy domestically.

This brings a similar case in 5th gen combat aircraft in light....China forbids the export of J-20 and developed J-35 as a export as well option. Similar to F-22 and F-35 in USA.

In any case, even if only a generation older chinese tech is exported, as long as it meets our needs it is fine. I mean, China is preparing for winning and absolutely dominating fight against the USA. No nation will risk even 1% chance that their latest and best is out for discovery on the export market. But if the previous gen tech is fine for our battlefield, Pakistan vs India, so be it.

Rest is up to the policy makers and procurement owners in Pakistan to make the best use of limited funds to procure and meet the threat.

Right now you have a choice of good tech from China or pretty much nothing from elsewhere (barring few here and there contracts with Euro firms and Turkish firms)

 

[Michael]

This brings a similar case in 5th gen combat aircraft in light....China forbids the export of J-20 and developed J-35 as a export as well option. Similar to F-22 and F-35 in USA.

In any case, even if only a generation older chinese tech is exported, as long as it meets our needs it is fine. I mean, China is preparing for winning and absolutely dominating fight against the USA. No nation will risk even 1% chance that their latest and best is out for discovery on the export market. But if the previous gen tech is fine for our battlefield, Pakistan vs India, so be it.

Rest is up to the policy makers and procurement owners in Pakistan to make the best use of limited funds to procure and meet the threat.

Right now you have a choice of good tech from China or pretty much nothing from elsewhere (barring few here and there contracts with Euro firms and Turkish firms)

There are certain "peculiar" Pakistani members on this forum. They invariably manage to find various angles from which to attack the military trade cooperation between China and Pakistan.

For example:

If China provides Pakistan with the latest weapons or technology, these people will say that China is using Pakistan as a guinea pig, making Pakistan bear the risks of some immature and high-risk technologies.

Conversely, if China provides Pakistan with proven, mature weaponry or technology, they will argue that China is merely dumping obsolete, soon-to-be-retired arms and technologies on Pakistan, while steadfastly refusing to share its truly cutting-edge advancements.

So, no matter what China does, they always manage to find some bizarre angle from which to launch their attacks—often taking the opportunity to criticize their own government in the process.

 

[huanghong]

The Type 054A has three types of fire-control radar.
They correspond respectively to the HQ-16 with a range of 40 kilometers, the HQ-16C with a range of 70 kilometers, and the HQ-16F with a range of 160 kilometers.



The fire-control radar used by Pakistan is the oldest type, corresponding to the 40-kilometer-range HQ-16. This type of radar is no longer used on the new Type 054A frigates built after 2015.

 

[Corax]

There are certain "peculiar" Pakistani members on this forum. They invariably manage to find various angles from which to attack the military trade cooperation between China and Pakistan.

For example:

If China provides Pakistan with the latest weapons or technology, these people will say that China is using Pakistan as a guinea pig, making Pakistan bear the risks of some immature and high-risk technologies.

Conversely, if China provides Pakistan with proven, mature weaponry or technology, they will argue that China is merely dumping obsolete, soon-to-be-retired arms and technologies on Pakistan, while steadfastly refusing to share its truly cutting-edge advancements.

So, no matter what China does, they always manage to find some bizarre angle from which to launch their attacks—often taking the opportunity to criticize their own government in the process.

There's some who just want to see US or Western tech and equipment, not Chinese, even though Pakistan has been subject to numerous sanctions in the past. It's rather like a wife suffering abuse from her husband, every time she wants to leave, she can't, because she loves him so much, despite being slapped around by her husband.

 

[Ak01]

There's some who just want to see US or Western tech and equipment, not Chinese, even though Pakistan has been subject to numerous sanctions in the past. It's rather like a wife suffering abuse from her husband, every time she wants to leave, she can't, because she loves him so much, despite being slapped around by her husband.

if this is what u took away from the entire discussion theres no helping