PAF Future Acquisition Plans

[Pioneer]

China took 15 year to Start to finish their first engine named WS-10

60 years. From the 1960s.

 

[Michael]

Would China sell engine technology to Turkey?

Selling engine technology? ------ That's absolutely impossible!

Selling engines? ------ Third-generation engines are a viable option; fourth-generation engines won't be allowed to be sold to them for at least another 20 years. But I don't think they'll buy China's third-generation engines.

but I think Ukraine is more save option than China

You can forget about Ukraine.

 

[mythbuster]

As far as my assessment goes and I’ve said this clearly before, most, if not all, of Pakistan’s current trajectory depends on multiple factors.

Pakistan’s military establishment presides over a vast shadow economy, taking its share from smuggling routes, narcotics corridors, oil and water‑tanker mafias, land‑grabbing networks, and an endless conveyor belt of fake housing schemes that loot the public. Add to this a state reliant on Saudi Arabia and other ME states for extended arms support and on China for high‑interest loans, and the picture becomes brutally simple: this is the true ceiling of Pakistan’s affordability.

Stop presenting street level crap as verified truth.

 

[KingQamaR]

Selling engine technology? ------ That's absolutely impossible!

Selling engines? ------ Third-generation engines are a viable option; fourth-generation engines won't be allowed to be sold to them for at least another 20 years. But I don't think they'll buy China's third-generation engines.

You can forget about Ukraine.

Pakistanis are way to optimistic on Turkeys fighter jet engine program. From what I read in articles how will Turkey build a 35000lb engine when it can’t even test 6000LB engine combustion? Currently, it is impossible to develop a 35,000-pound engine without buying engine technology like you say? Whose going to sell them their engine technology? J35 fills all of PAF requirements. Why are Pakistanis showing interest in KAAN jet for totally bizarre .

 

[Ali_Baba]

Pakistanis are way to optimistic on Turkeys fighter jet engine program. From what I read in articles how will Turkey build a 35000lb engine when it can’t even test 6000LB engine combustion? Currently, it is impossible to develop a 35,000-pound engine without buying engine technology like you say? Whose going to sell them their engine technology? J35 fills all of PAF requirements. Why are Pakistanis showing interest in KAAN jet for totally bizarre .

As you say, PAF will buy into the J-35AE, that is guaranteed. As for Kaan, if it successful then PAF will buy into it, if not, then PAF will carry on with the J-35AE. KAAN offers capabilities of range and payload that PAF has always wanted and never had the chance to procure so there is upside if the project is successful.

There is no downside to the PAF taking an interest in Kaan.

 

[Pakistanithinktank]

Stop presenting street level crap as verified truth.

Honestly, I’m glad you asked for verified sources. I was kind of waiting for someone to push for that. Let’s clear the fog a bit and bring in what Western reporting actually says. This is little bit higher than street level crap.

And if you’re a keen observer, you’ll probably dig up even more verifiable material once you start looking in the right places.

1. Pakistan Military’s Shadow Economy (“Milbus”)

• Ayesha Siddiqa’s Military Inc. (Yale University Press): foundational Western academic work documenting the military’s business empire, land control, and off‑book economic networks.• She describes Milbus as “military capital used for the personal benefit of the military fraternity… outside the normal state economy.”

(Foundational Western academic work on Pakistan’s military economy)
https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300156032/military-inc/ (yalebooks.yale.edu)

• The Economist• Reports that the Pakistan Army controls hundreds of businesses, from real estate to banking to fertilizer, and operates a parallel economy.

https://www.economist.com/asia/2019/08/29/pakistans-army-is-building-an-empire (economist.com)

• Financial Times• FT has repeatedly covered the military’s role in Pakistan’s economy, including its dominance over land, construction, and commercial enterprises.

https://www.ft.com/content/8b4f1e3e-8c2a-11e9-a1c1-51bf8f989972 (ft.com)

• Carnegie Endowment for International Peace• Carnegie papers describe the military as Pakistan’s “most powerful economic actor”, with deep penetration into real estate, logistics, and resource extraction.

https://carnegieendowment.org/2019/04/04/pakistan-s-military-economy-pub-78793 (carnegieendowment.org)

These directly support the “vast shadow economy” framing.

2. Smuggling Routes, Border Trade & Illicit Networks

• International Crisis Group (ICG)• Reports on Balochistan and KP describe military‑protected smuggling routes, including fuel, goods, and cross‑border trade with Afghanistan and Iran.

https://www.crisisgroup.org/asia/south-asia/pakistan/pakistan-balochistan-conflict (crisisgroup.org)

• RAND Corporation• RAND analyses of Pakistan’s borderlands describe drug‑trafficking corridors and the military’s role in “managing” or “tolerating” illicit flows for strategic purposes.

https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR1578.html (rand.org)

• UNODC (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime)• UNODC reports (widely cited by Western media) show Pakistan as a major transit corridor for Afghan opiates, with trafficking routes passing through military‑controlled areas.

https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/afghan-opiate-trafficking.html (unodc.org)

These support the “smuggling routes” and “narcotics corridors” elements.

3. Land Grabbing & Housing Schemes (DHA, Cantonments, Real Estate)

• New York Times• NYT has reported on the military’s seizure of land, especially in Karachi and Punjab, and the expansion of cantonments and DHA housing schemes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/22/world/asia/pakistan-military-expands-land-holdings.html (nytimes.com)

• Reuters• Reuters investigations describe DHA as a military‑run real estate empire, with repeated scandals involving missing funds, stalled projects, and land disputes.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pakistan-corruption-idUSKBN13R1F0 (reuters.com)

• Bloomberg• Bloomberg has covered Pakistan’s real estate bubble and the military’s role in land speculation and elite housing schemes.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-20/pakistan-s-real-estate-boom-has-a-dark-side (bloomberg.com)

These directly support “land‑grabbing networks” and “fake housing schemes.

4. Oil Tanker Mafias, Water Tanker Mafias, Resource Capture

• The Guardian (UK)• Reports on Karachi’s water tanker mafia, noting that it operates with the tacit protection of security institutions, including military‑linked authorities.

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/mar/27/karachi-water-mafia-crisis (theguardian.com)

• Al‑Jazeera (Qatar, Western‑aligned)• Investigations into Karachi’s water crisis describe the tanker mafia as deeply embedded in the state apparatus, including military‑controlled municipal bodies.

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2016/6/27/karachis-water-crisis-who-is-to-blame (aljazeera.com)

• Washington Post• Coverage of Karachi’s infrastructure failures includes references to mafias operating with political and institutional protection.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/karachi-pakistan-water-crisis/2018/07/02/ (washingtonpost.com)

These support the “oil and water‑tanker mafias” claim.

5. Reliance on Saudi Arabia & Gulf States for Arms and Bailouts

• Financial Times• FT has repeatedly reported that Pakistan relies on Saudi Arabia and UAE for emergency financial support, including deposits, deferred oil payments, and military cooperation.

https://www.ft.com/content/4a8b1f1e-0e4c-11ea-b2d6-9bf4d1957a67 (ft.com)

• Washington Post• Coverage of Pakistan’s economic crises highlights dependence on Gulf states for cash injections and military ties.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/pakistan-saudi-arabia-loans/2019/10/24/ (washingtonpost.com)

• Brookings Institution• Brookings papers describe Pakistan’s strategic dependence on Saudi Arabia for both economic and military support.

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/pakistan-and-the-gulf/ (brookings.edu)

This supports the “state reliant on Saudi Arabia and ME states” portion.

6. Dependence on China for High‑Interest Loans & Military Procurement

• Bloomberg• Reports that Pakistan owes over $30 billion to China, much of it at commercial (non‑concessional) rates, contributing to debt distress.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...tan-s-debt-to-china-is-strangling-its-economy (bloomberg.com)

• Financial Times• FT has covered the opaque financing of CPEC projects and Chinese military sales, including submarines and aircraft.

https://www.ft.com/content/3b5e3e2a-6c7f-11e7-bfeb-33fe0c5b7eaa (ft.com)

• CSIS (Center for Strategic and International Studies)• CSIS analyses describe Pakistan’s strategic over‑dependence on Chinese loans, calling them “high‑interest, opaque, and politically binding.”

https://www.csis.org/analysis/china-pakistan-economic-corridor (csis.org)

These support the “high‑interest Chinese loans” and “arms dependency” claims.

 

[mythbuster]

Don't believe in everything you read ..
Everyone knows that the military is involved in legit businesses however , linking it with Mafias , land grabbing and smuggling is below the belt innuendo....I am from a military family and I know more than an average person what's going on.

 

[Pakistanithinktank]

Don't believe in everything you read ..
Everyone knows that the military is involved in legit businesses however , linking it with Mafias , land grabbing and smuggling is below the belt innuendo....I am from a military family and I know more than an average person what's going on.

No matter what Pakistani or Chinese state media says, the truth behind closed doors is blunt. China has already told Munir and Showbaz to stop playing old games and start fixing the country, bring real reforms, clean up governance, and get security under control. They’ve invested billions and they’re tired of watching Pakistan sabotage its own future.

Saudi Arabia isn’t sugarcoating anything either. Their message is simple. “How many times will you run back to the IMF? Fix your house. Reform your economy. Stop expecting bailouts.” When even your closest allies are giving you tough love, it means the crisis is deeper than the propaganda admits.

And all of this sits on top of a darker truth we learned the day Arshad Sharif was murdered. That was the moment people realized the establishment would cross any line to silence those who refuse to fall in line. The mask slipped, and the old illusions died.

Pakistan is not the 1990s anymore. Inflation is crushing families. Unemployment is sky‑high. Millions are unskilled and barely surviving. Yet the poor are squeezed for more taxes while the elite float above the chaos with exemptions and perks.

The world is losing patience. The people are exhausted. And the old playbook has finally reached its expiry date.

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

60 years. From the 1960s.

don't troll buddy

 

[hydrabadi_arab]

Honestly, I’m glad you asked for verified sources. I was kind of waiting for someone to push for that. Let’s clear the fog a bit and bring in what Western reporting actually says. This is little bit higher than street level crap.

And if you’re a keen observer, you’ll probably dig up even more verifiable material once you start looking in the right places.

1. Pakistan Military’s Shadow Economy (“Milbus”)

• Ayesha Siddiqa’s Military Inc. (Yale University Press): foundational Western academic work documenting the military’s business empire, land control, and off‑book economic networks.• She describes Milbus as “military capital used for the personal benefit of the military fraternity… outside the normal state economy.”

(Foundational Western academic work on Pakistan’s military economy)
https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300156032/military-inc/ (yalebooks.yale.edu)

• The Economist• Reports that the Pakistan Army controls hundreds of businesses, from real estate to banking to fertilizer, and operates a parallel economy.

https://www.economist.com/asia/2019/08/29/pakistans-army-is-building-an-empire (economist.com)

• Financial Times• FT has repeatedly covered the military’s role in Pakistan’s economy, including its dominance over land, construction, and commercial enterprises.

https://www.ft.com/content/8b4f1e3e-8c2a-11e9-a1c1-51bf8f989972 (ft.com)

• Carnegie Endowment for International Peace• Carnegie papers describe the military as Pakistan’s “most powerful economic actor”, with deep penetration into real estate, logistics, and resource extraction.

https://carnegieendowment.org/2019/04/04/pakistan-s-military-economy-pub-78793 (carnegieendowment.org)

These directly support the “vast shadow economy” framing.

2. Smuggling Routes, Border Trade & Illicit Networks

• International Crisis Group (ICG)• Reports on Balochistan and KP describe military‑protected smuggling routes, including fuel, goods, and cross‑border trade with Afghanistan and Iran.

https://www.crisisgroup.org/asia/south-asia/pakistan/pakistan-balochistan-conflict (crisisgroup.org)

• RAND Corporation• RAND analyses of Pakistan’s borderlands describe drug‑trafficking corridors and the military’s role in “managing” or “tolerating” illicit flows for strategic purposes.

https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR1578.html (rand.org)

• UNODC (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime)• UNODC reports (widely cited by Western media) show Pakistan as a major transit corridor for Afghan opiates, with trafficking routes passing through military‑controlled areas.

https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/afghan-opiate-trafficking.html (unodc.org)

These support the “smuggling routes” and “narcotics corridors” elements.

3. Land Grabbing & Housing Schemes (DHA, Cantonments, Real Estate)

• New York Times• NYT has reported on the military’s seizure of land, especially in Karachi and Punjab, and the expansion of cantonments and DHA housing schemes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/22/world/asia/pakistan-military-expands-land-holdings.html (nytimes.com)

• Reuters• Reuters investigations describe DHA as a military‑run real estate empire, with repeated scandals involving missing funds, stalled projects, and land disputes.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pakistan-corruption-idUSKBN13R1F0 (reuters.com)

• Bloomberg• Bloomberg has covered Pakistan’s real estate bubble and the military’s role in land speculation and elite housing schemes.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-20/pakistan-s-real-estate-boom-has-a-dark-side (bloomberg.com)

These directly support “land‑grabbing networks” and “fake housing schemes.

4. Oil Tanker Mafias, Water Tanker Mafias, Resource Capture

• The Guardian (UK)• Reports on Karachi’s water tanker mafia, noting that it operates with the tacit protection of security institutions, including military‑linked authorities.

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/mar/27/karachi-water-mafia-crisis (theguardian.com)

• Al‑Jazeera (Qatar, Western‑aligned)• Investigations into Karachi’s water crisis describe the tanker mafia as deeply embedded in the state apparatus, including military‑controlled municipal bodies.

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2016/6/27/karachis-water-crisis-who-is-to-blame (aljazeera.com)

• Washington Post• Coverage of Karachi’s infrastructure failures includes references to mafias operating with political and institutional protection.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/karachi-pakistan-water-crisis/2018/07/02/ (washingtonpost.com)

These support the “oil and water‑tanker mafias” claim.

5. Reliance on Saudi Arabia & Gulf States for Arms and Bailouts

• Financial Times• FT has repeatedly reported that Pakistan relies on Saudi Arabia and UAE for emergency financial support, including deposits, deferred oil payments, and military cooperation.

https://www.ft.com/content/4a8b1f1e-0e4c-11ea-b2d6-9bf4d1957a67 (ft.com)

• Washington Post• Coverage of Pakistan’s economic crises highlights dependence on Gulf states for cash injections and military ties.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/pakistan-saudi-arabia-loans/2019/10/24/ (washingtonpost.com)

• Brookings Institution• Brookings papers describe Pakistan’s strategic dependence on Saudi Arabia for both economic and military support.

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/pakistan-and-the-gulf/ (brookings.edu)

This supports the “state reliant on Saudi Arabia and ME states” portion.

6. Dependence on China for High‑Interest Loans & Military Procurement

• Bloomberg• Reports that Pakistan owes over $30 billion to China, much of it at commercial (non‑concessional) rates, contributing to debt distress.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...tan-s-debt-to-china-is-strangling-its-economy (bloomberg.com)

• Financial Times• FT has covered the opaque financing of CPEC projects and Chinese military sales, including submarines and aircraft.

https://www.ft.com/content/3b5e3e2a-6c7f-11e7-bfeb-33fe0c5b7eaa (ft.com)

• CSIS (Center for Strategic and International Studies)• CSIS analyses describe Pakistan’s strategic over‑dependence on Chinese loans, calling them “high‑interest, opaque, and politically binding.”

https://www.csis.org/analysis/china-pakistan-economic-corridor (csis.org)

These support the “high‑interest Chinese loans” and “arms dependency” claims.

All this is gibbrish. For your wish list to come true Pakistan need to further integrate economy with China and export more and more. Reduce trade deficit with China and trade in Yuan. DHA plots economy or smuggling will not buy you anything.

If smuggling helped anyone then FATA would be must developed region in Pakistan. And Afghanistan the must developed nation.

A

 

[TopGun786]

China took 15 year to Start to finish their first engine named WS-10

That's absolutely false.

 

[Pakistanithinktank]

All this is gibbrish. For your wish list to come true Pakistan need to further integrate economy with China and export more and more. Reduce trade deficit with China and trade in Yuan. DHA plots economy or smuggling will not buy you anything.

If smuggling helped anyone then FATA would be must developed region in Pakistan. And Afghanistan the must developed nation.
View attachment 199559
A

I don’t know if I should laugh or cry.

You’re mixing two completely different things and hoping they cancel each other out. They don’t.

Nobody said smuggling or DHA plots will “buy Pakistan anything.” The point is that these activities distort the formal economy, drain state capacity, and create parallel power structures. That’s why FATA and Afghanistan didn’t develop because black‑market activity replaces state institutions, not strengthens them.

And let’s be real, Pakistan doesn’t need more dependency. It needs a competitive economy….not one where army‑owned companies get tax exemptions, preferential treatment, and guaranteed contracts while everyone else fights uphill. There are no fair trading laws, no level playing field. A handful enjoy privileges while the rest of the private sector suffocates. That’s not how exports grow; that’s how economies stagnate.

And about “integrating more with China”: Pakistan already owes China over $30B, much of it at commercial rates. Even Western institutions like Bloomberg and FT have reported this. You can’t fix a structural problem by doubling down on the same dependency.

Exports matter…..absolutely. But exports don’t grow in a system where land, capital, and regulation are captured by non‑productive actors. That’s why every serious economist talks about governance and institutional reform before trade miracles.

So no, this isn’t a “gibbrish” It’s the basic economic reality.
You can’t build a modern export economy on top of parallel markets, elite land capture, and external bailouts.

Countries that grow…. China included fixed those fundamentals first.

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

That's absolutely false.

So what is the truth? please correct me

 

[puttputt]

Honestly, I’m glad you asked for verified sources. I was kind of waiting for someone to push for that. Let’s clear the fog a bit and bring in what Western reporting actually says. This is little bit higher than street level crap.

And if you’re a keen observer, you’ll probably dig up even more verifiable material once you start looking in the right places.

1. Pakistan Military’s Shadow Economy (“Milbus”)

• Ayesha Siddiqa’s Military Inc. (Yale University Press): foundational Western academic work documenting the military’s business empire, land control, and off‑book economic networks.• She describes Milbus as “military capital used for the personal benefit of the military fraternity… outside the normal state economy.”

(Foundational Western academic work on Pakistan’s military economy)
https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300156032/military-inc/ (yalebooks.yale.edu)

• The Economist• Reports that the Pakistan Army controls hundreds of businesses, from real estate to banking to fertilizer, and operates a parallel economy.

https://www.economist.com/asia/2019/08/29/pakistans-army-is-building-an-empire (economist.com)

• Financial Times• FT has repeatedly covered the military’s role in Pakistan’s economy, including its dominance over land, construction, and commercial enterprises.

https://www.ft.com/content/8b4f1e3e-8c2a-11e9-a1c1-51bf8f989972 (ft.com)

• Carnegie Endowment for International Peace• Carnegie papers describe the military as Pakistan’s “most powerful economic actor”, with deep penetration into real estate, logistics, and resource extraction.

https://carnegieendowment.org/2019/04/04/pakistan-s-military-economy-pub-78793 (carnegieendowment.org)

These directly support the “vast shadow economy” framing.

2. Smuggling Routes, Border Trade & Illicit Networks

• International Crisis Group (ICG)• Reports on Balochistan and KP describe military‑protected smuggling routes, including fuel, goods, and cross‑border trade with Afghanistan and Iran.

https://www.crisisgroup.org/asia/south-asia/pakistan/pakistan-balochistan-conflict (crisisgroup.org)

• RAND Corporation• RAND analyses of Pakistan’s borderlands describe drug‑trafficking corridors and the military’s role in “managing” or “tolerating” illicit flows for strategic purposes.

https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR1578.html (rand.org)

• UNODC (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime)• UNODC reports (widely cited by Western media) show Pakistan as a major transit corridor for Afghan opiates, with trafficking routes passing through military‑controlled areas.

https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/afghan-opiate-trafficking.html (unodc.org)

These support the “smuggling routes” and “narcotics corridors” elements.

3. Land Grabbing & Housing Schemes (DHA, Cantonments, Real Estate)

• New York Times• NYT has reported on the military’s seizure of land, especially in Karachi and Punjab, and the expansion of cantonments and DHA housing schemes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/22/world/asia/pakistan-military-expands-land-holdings.html (nytimes.com)

• Reuters• Reuters investigations describe DHA as a military‑run real estate empire, with repeated scandals involving missing funds, stalled projects, and land disputes.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pakistan-corruption-idUSKBN13R1F0 (reuters.com)

• Bloomberg• Bloomberg has covered Pakistan’s real estate bubble and the military’s role in land speculation and elite housing schemes.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-20/pakistan-s-real-estate-boom-has-a-dark-side (bloomberg.com)

These directly support “land‑grabbing networks” and “fake housing schemes.

4. Oil Tanker Mafias, Water Tanker Mafias, Resource Capture

• The Guardian (UK)• Reports on Karachi’s water tanker mafia, noting that it operates with the tacit protection of security institutions, including military‑linked authorities.

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/mar/27/karachi-water-mafia-crisis (theguardian.com)

• Al‑Jazeera (Qatar, Western‑aligned)• Investigations into Karachi’s water crisis describe the tanker mafia as deeply embedded in the state apparatus, including military‑controlled municipal bodies.

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2016/6/27/karachis-water-crisis-who-is-to-blame (aljazeera.com)

• Washington Post• Coverage of Karachi’s infrastructure failures includes references to mafias operating with political and institutional protection.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/karachi-pakistan-water-crisis/2018/07/02/ (washingtonpost.com)

These support the “oil and water‑tanker mafias” claim.

5. Reliance on Saudi Arabia & Gulf States for Arms and Bailouts

• Financial Times• FT has repeatedly reported that Pakistan relies on Saudi Arabia and UAE for emergency financial support, including deposits, deferred oil payments, and military cooperation.

https://www.ft.com/content/4a8b1f1e-0e4c-11ea-b2d6-9bf4d1957a67 (ft.com)

• Washington Post• Coverage of Pakistan’s economic crises highlights dependence on Gulf states for cash injections and military ties.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/pakistan-saudi-arabia-loans/2019/10/24/ (washingtonpost.com)

• Brookings Institution• Brookings papers describe Pakistan’s strategic dependence on Saudi Arabia for both economic and military support.

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/pakistan-and-the-gulf/ (brookings.edu)

This supports the “state reliant on Saudi Arabia and ME states” portion.

6. Dependence on China for High‑Interest Loans & Military Procurement

• Bloomberg• Reports that Pakistan owes over $30 billion to China, much of it at commercial (non‑concessional) rates, contributing to debt distress.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...tan-s-debt-to-china-is-strangling-its-economy (bloomberg.com)

• Financial Times• FT has covered the opaque financing of CPEC projects and Chinese military sales, including submarines and aircraft.

https://www.ft.com/content/3b5e3e2a-6c7f-11e7-bfeb-33fe0c5b7eaa (ft.com)

• CSIS (Center for Strategic and International Studies)• CSIS analyses describe Pakistan’s strategic over‑dependence on Chinese loans, calling them “high‑interest, opaque, and politically binding.”

https://www.csis.org/analysis/china-pakistan-economic-corridor (csis.org)

These support the “high‑interest Chinese loans” and “arms dependency” claims.

Bro, all this is fine, but I come here to hear retarded feel-good stories about how Pakistan is doing well. That's what I have enjoyed hearing for the past 20 years, i.e., Pakistan is excelling, number #1 in Asia, and everybody needs us.

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

60 years. From the 1960s.

Look buddy in 60s you're copying your J-5 (Mig-15), J-6 (Mig-19), J-7 (Mig-21) Soviet era engines these engines were not from scratch, I'm talking about brand new (from scratch) this is WS-10 ( using the core of civilian CMF 56 and turbine blade tech from AL-31F) for J-10 project and this project was started in late 80s/ early 90s and first flyable prototype was installed in your Su-27 in early 2000

So research the history of your country's military developments first buddy then talk