Vikramaditya1
Trusted Member
Why would we get the knockoff when we can get it from the source? Russians. China is known for many things, making good Jet engines is not one of them.
Indian Air Force News and Discussions ll
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Yasser76
Elite Member
You know when someone writes a statement so actually f**king dumb that you have to read it twice, then quickly screengrab it in case they delete it later?
Pakistan Space Agency
Elite Member
Jaisi quam, waisay journalists.
Pakistan Space Agency
Elite Member
Better ask your Government and media not to complain next time about Pakistan beating up India to the pulp "using Chinese made J-10C fighter aircraft".
I think I heard the repeated mention of "Chinese made J-10C" last year more in Indian news than in Pakistani or Chinese news.
TAC
Registered Member
Just keep your eyes tightly closed & head buried in the sand, if you don’t see it, can’t be real right?
Yasser76
Elite Member
Indians on here finally losing it big time, and I am loving it. Argument now is China cannot make jet engines. It is like the read about the WS-15 and WS-19 and suddenly "No saaaaar! No paaaasible saaaar!"
Ali_Baba
VIP Member
I don't know what is going on with these people and their lives, that they feel the need to come here and say crap like this. What alternate reality do they come from?
Right now - China surpasses Russia in every single metric of measure of aerospace rating, from airframes to engines, avionics and EW systems, innovation(!!!) and industry depth. Everything.
China has two clean sheet designs flying right now, and Russia has one poor Su30MKI "stealth modified " variant called the Su57 which everyone has classified as the worst of the pretenders to the 5th gen crow. Go figure.
Su57 is not a clean sheet design. Hell, Turkieye is doing a better job of a clean sheet design with the Kaan than Russia with all's history.
Russia's best days were when it was part of the Soviet Union and has the resources of the entire Soviet Union to fun R&D, but those days are long gone.
Most of what Russia has are Soviet era "knocks offs" that the Indians buy and pretend they are not ...
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Yasser76
Elite Member
At some point it ruins the forum experiance. I can understand twisting facts, ambitious boasts or spinning things, but this is the equivelant if coming on here and basically saying white is black and black is white and the earth is flat.
At some point do we stop people constantly writing straight up falsehoods. These are no longer legitimate opinions that we may or may not agree with, just straight lies
Starlord
Trusted Member
yeah that's rich from a country that can't even build a fighter jet in 30-40 years, even with shit tonn of stuff which were imported. China is not even in their league, and specially after what world witness between Iran/America, China is 100x more powerful than Iran with thousands of Drones, missiles and modern fighter jets, If Iran can stress American military might to a point where they were opting for Peace, imagine what China will do not just to America but to India, which is even more pathetic, weak and useless.
White Privilege
Registered Member
LOL didn't u guys use to complain about MKI engines not upto the mark near the tropics, and that has plagued your flankers ever since.....
Yasser76
Elite Member
LOL didn't u guys use to complain about MKI engines not upto the mark near the tropics, and that has plagued your flankers ever since.....
Yup, dumb f**ls are complaining about GE engine problems for Tejas too.
In Paj world, US and Chinese engines are usless. Kaveri is their God.
Pakistanithinktank
Registered Member
That was the story of the past.
China is ahead of Russia in modern jet‑engine technology. Not because Russia is “bad,” but because China invested massively, built new factories, and pushed continuous R&D for 20+ years.
Russia still has strengths, but China is now the one producing newer, more advanced, and more scalable engines.
Chinese are now ahead of Russian, even Russian SU-57 contains Chinese parts.
Oscar
Moderator
Their planes are clocking hours while yours have pigeons making nests in the empty tunnels where the engines are supposed to be.
niubi
Registered Member
WS-13 was a "knock off" of the RD-33 and WS-10 was a "knock off" of the CFM56 core.
Both evolved a lot though with WS-10 original to WS-10A being materially different engines while compression staging and bypass ratio were mostly kept the same.
The WS-13 evolved A LOT over the decades from being a direct RD-33 copy to being a completely different engine in the WS-21 variant which made many changes and refinements. One obvious visual indicator is WS-21 does not have the smoke effect of RD-33 series. In fact even some variants of WS-13 in the 2010s already solved that issue.
WS-10B, WS-10C, WS-10 TVC variants are improvements but still based on those original designs. All these match are a match to Russia's level back in the 2000s to 2010s era. But since then, in the space of turbofans, Russia has not improved much. China has experienced most of its turbofans progress since the 2000s era.
WS-15 there were basically two separate programs. One that already developed a F135 thrust level engine by 2018-2019 and one that basically was a forced restart to incorporate all the new materials and tech that weren't available to the original WS-15 program which started in the 2000s and wasn't that much more advanced than the tech available during WS-10 maturing phase. The second WS-15 engine is China's first 5th generation turbofan and also happens to be extremely high thrust in the F135 class but without needing to get to near high bypass ratio arrangement that F135 uses - much greater radius. Also not as fuel thirsty as the near turbojet ratioed F119.
Russia's IZD. 30 has not even reached service. WS-15 has two types with the chosen new type being in active service for a few years while production phase was slow. Now all the J-20s being produced every year which number over 100/year have WS-15s and had since last year. The mass production of new WS-15 has already been done while Russia is struggling to complete Izd-30 let alone manufacture it.
WS-19 finally gave China a mid thrust 4.5 gen engine (at least matching modern F414 and EJ200 variants) and the bypass ratio and compression cycles are wildly different to F414, RD-33/WS-13/21 and EJ200. The hints are thrust (wet and dry) are ~20% greater than EJ200 and the engineers have considered it half a step above F414 and EJ200 with consideration for combustion and compression stage temperatures.
This is just turbofans. It's leaving Russia in the dust and catching up with the West. There are other engines within the turbofan domain such as VCE where China has test flown 2 different academic research institute VCEs. No word on the military VCE programs but surely well above academic level. Russia has no VCE demonstrator let alone prototypes like US and China now has.
Scramjets? Well China's the only country with scramjet engine in service on two separate platforms unless the CJ-1000 actually uses a more exotic propulsion than scramjet.
Rotating detonation? US recently caught up to China with test flight but China had several academic domain test flights of research engines in early 2020s. Military demonstrators would preceed this. US only recently tested rotating detonation engines.
Sodramjets? China is the only one which has test flown this type. US has theorised this type is impossible. AKA oblique detonation engine, another form of continuous detonation.
Combined cycle? China test flown several types using TBCC and TRCC rocket based combined cycle engines particularly with what the internet thinks is the Tengyun program but in reality, it is a host of military and academic SSTO and TSTO programs. Again these will be the first to bear fruit on this planet just like with the 6th gens. Don't need to believe it. Reality will be.
Knock offs are true, particularly in the past. But India is incapable of even knock offs today. Don't even talk about manufacturing and particularly manufacturing affordably, at speed and purely independently.
Both evolved a lot though with WS-10 original to WS-10A being materially different engines while compression staging and bypass ratio were mostly kept the same.
The WS-13 evolved A LOT over the decades from being a direct RD-33 copy to being a completely different engine in the WS-21 variant which made many changes and refinements. One obvious visual indicator is WS-21 does not have the smoke effect of RD-33 series. In fact even some variants of WS-13 in the 2010s already solved that issue.
WS-10B, WS-10C, WS-10 TVC variants are improvements but still based on those original designs. All these match are a match to Russia's level back in the 2000s to 2010s era. But since then, in the space of turbofans, Russia has not improved much. China has experienced most of its turbofans progress since the 2000s era.
WS-15 there were basically two separate programs. One that already developed a F135 thrust level engine by 2018-2019 and one that basically was a forced restart to incorporate all the new materials and tech that weren't available to the original WS-15 program which started in the 2000s and wasn't that much more advanced than the tech available during WS-10 maturing phase. The second WS-15 engine is China's first 5th generation turbofan and also happens to be extremely high thrust in the F135 class but without needing to get to near high bypass ratio arrangement that F135 uses - much greater radius. Also not as fuel thirsty as the near turbojet ratioed F119.
Russia's IZD. 30 has not even reached service. WS-15 has two types with the chosen new type being in active service for a few years while production phase was slow. Now all the J-20s being produced every year which number over 100/year have WS-15s and had since last year. The mass production of new WS-15 has already been done while Russia is struggling to complete Izd-30 let alone manufacture it.
WS-19 finally gave China a mid thrust 4.5 gen engine (at least matching modern F414 and EJ200 variants) and the bypass ratio and compression cycles are wildly different to F414, RD-33/WS-13/21 and EJ200. The hints are thrust (wet and dry) are ~20% greater than EJ200 and the engineers have considered it half a step above F414 and EJ200 with consideration for combustion and compression stage temperatures.
This is just turbofans. It's leaving Russia in the dust and catching up with the West. There are other engines within the turbofan domain such as VCE where China has test flown 2 different academic research institute VCEs. No word on the military VCE programs but surely well above academic level. Russia has no VCE demonstrator let alone prototypes like US and China now has.
Scramjets? Well China's the only country with scramjet engine in service on two separate platforms unless the CJ-1000 actually uses a more exotic propulsion than scramjet.
Rotating detonation? US recently caught up to China with test flight but China had several academic domain test flights of research engines in early 2020s. Military demonstrators would preceed this. US only recently tested rotating detonation engines.
Sodramjets? China is the only one which has test flown this type. US has theorised this type is impossible. AKA oblique detonation engine, another form of continuous detonation.
Combined cycle? China test flown several types using TBCC and TRCC rocket based combined cycle engines particularly with what the internet thinks is the Tengyun program but in reality, it is a host of military and academic SSTO and TSTO programs. Again these will be the first to bear fruit on this planet just like with the 6th gens. Don't need to believe it. Reality will be.
Knock offs are true, particularly in the past. But India is incapable of even knock offs today. Don't even talk about manufacturing and particularly manufacturing affordably, at speed and purely independently.
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