Pakistan Army Small Arms

[AZ_HighCountry]

It is being out sourced, private companies are front of the new competition.

Also our problem is mainly handing POF a task it was incapable doing, the only thing POF knows how to make is G3s, when you tell them to design a new rifle they will make it as much of a G3 as possible.

Well, look at the US. Big Army is determined to adopt a rifle as close in caliber as possible to .30 caliber along with the weight of the M-1 Garand or more.

Even the M-4A1 carbine unloaded weighs more than the M-16A1. Then, after adding all of the damn attachments, the grunt is right back to what the M-1 weighed perhaps more.

Enter into a license agreement with KAC and start manufacturing the SR-25 in 6.5C and call it a day. The 6.5 will give the PAK infantryman the range and punch necessary to address most problems without the weight and recoil of the G3.

 

[Toxic]

Well, look at the US. Big Army is determined to adopt a rifle as close in caliber as possible to .30 caliber along with the weight of the M-1 Garand or more.

Even the M-4A1 carbine unloaded weighs more than the M-16A1. Then, after adding all of the damn attachments, the grunt is right back to what the M-1 weighed perhaps more.

Enter into a license agreement with KAC and start manufacturing the SR-25 in 6.5C and call it a day. The 6.5 will give the PAK infantryman the range and punch necessary to address most problems without the weight and recoil of the G3.

Cost is the major issue here, PA really wanted the CZ Bren for example it out performed every other rifle in trials but it was deemed too expensive, mind you it would have likely cost 1300usd per rifle, something like the SR 25 costs 3x that, there's zero chance it gets fielded in any role besides as a DMR for Special forces

Army will probably go for some local copy of the Sig 716 as a standard issue rifle that it can buy for under a $1000 + also as a section marksman rifle.

 

[Par 5]

Cost is the major issue here, PA really wanted the CZ Bren for example it out performed every other rifle in trials but it was deemed too expensive, mind you it would have likely cost 1300usd per rifle, something like the SR 25 costs 3x that, there's zero chance it gets fielded in any role besides as a DMR for Special forces

Army will probably go for some local copy of the Sig 716 as a standard issue rifle that it can buy for under a $1000 + also as a section marksman rifle.

As long as they are getting the Chinese Type 52 SMG for under $200, everything else will be moot. The entire exercise of tri-services trials of foreign made rifles was a complete waste of time and money especially for the international vendors who provided around 30 units each under no-cost, no-obligation basis for a good 3 years.

 

[Toxic]

As long as they are getting the Chinese Type 52 SMG for under $200, everything else will be moot. The entire exercise of tri-services trials of foreign made rifles was a complete waste of time and money especially for the international vendors who provided around 30 units each under no-cost, no-obligation basis for a good 3 years.

You mean type 56

This might makes sense for CT operations in the West but against India they are eventually going to have to bite the bullet and get a new rifle.

Indian procurement is very incompetent but their infantry will have modern rifles with scopes.

For example a infantry man with a 4-6x sight can comfortably hit a man sized target at 600meters or more.

A infantry man with Iron sights can only effectively see a target at 200-250 meters.

It means that a Indian infantry section will be able to engage a Pakistani section at more double the range.

 

[Zarvan]

Cost is the major issue here, PA really wanted the CZ Bren for example it out performed every other rifle in trials but it was deemed too expensive, mind you it would have likely cost 1300usd per rifle, something like the SR 25 costs 3x that, there's zero chance it gets fielded in any role besides as a DMR for Special forces

Army will probably go for some local copy of the Sig 716 as a standard issue rifle that it can buy for under a $1000 + also as a section marksman rifle.

Bhai, where does this cost thing go when you are buying thousands of other items: tanks, Artillery, MRAP, IFV, helicopters, and several more systems.

 

[Toxic]

Bhai, where does this cost thing go when you are buying thousands of other items: tanks, Artillery, MRAP, IFV, helicopters, and several more systems.

Let me ask you something, have you ever seen a officer ranked brigadier or above live in anything but absolute opulence? Now look at that and tell me this is a military with no money to buy new rifles.

Also rifle programs are not a one and done thing, they are decade long program so the cost is spread out over that decade, let's say a rifle program costs 600m for 600k soldiers, that in reality comes out to maybe 60mil per year if the program takes a decade.

Of course this is a oversimplification but you get the point

 

[AZ_HighCountry]

Cost is the major issue here, PA really wanted the CZ Bren for example it out performed every other rifle in trials but it was deemed too expensive, mind you it would have likely cost 1300usd per rifle, something like the SR 25 costs 3x that, there's zero chance it gets fielded in any role besides as a DMR for Special forces

Army will probably go for some local copy of the Sig 716 as a standard issue rifle that it can buy for under a $1000 + also as a section marksman rifle.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Sig rifle. I've handled a few of them.

But whatever PA does, don't go with 7.62x51. Seriously, go with 6.5C. Flatter shooting and holds wind much better at distance. I rarely shoot 7.62x51 anymore.

 

[AZ_HighCountry]

You mean type 56

This might makes sense for CT operations in the West but against India they are eventually going to have to bite the bullet and get a new rifle.

Indian procurement is very incompetent but their infantry will have modern rifles with scopes.

For example a infantry man with a 4-6x sight can comfortably hit a man sized target at 600meters or more.

A infantry man with Iron sights can only effectively see a target at 200-250 meters.

It means that a Indian infantry section will be able to engage a Pakistani section at more double the range.

Both the Germans and the Russians discovered at basically the same time that most infantry engagements occurred at ranges less than 300M. For the most part, that argument still holds true.

in PA's case, not so much. We discovered the same thing next door in A'stan.

Thanks in part to the GWOT and the various insurgent groups embedding themselves amongst the population, adoption of optics has become standard doctrine. I can't speak to the Army but Marine recruits spends almost no time on iron sights and focus solely on optics. Once they join the fleet, they will be issued with the latest optics and not the Acogs they used in boot.

FWIW, one of the targets we train with is the NATO Type E. See image below:



Dimensions are 19"W x 42"H. I can still comfortably put 25 hits in the black in a time limit of 50 seconds using my NMAR with a 4.5X optic.

If I can still do that at my age, any well-trained young infantryman should be able to as well.

One of these days, I may try it with my AR-6.5C. At the moment however I am focused on training for Camp Perry in a few weeks.

 

[Toxic]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Sig rifle. I've handled a few of them.

But whatever PA does, don't go with 7.62x51. Seriously, go with 6.5C. Flatter shooting and holds wind much better at distance. I rarely shoot 7.62x51 anymore.

It's also a case of logistics, if PA ditches a 7.62x51 rifle it ditches it's entire stockpile of 7.62x51 ammo

 

[Toxic]

Both the Germans and the Russians discovered at basically the same time that most infantry engagements occurred at ranges less than 300M. For the most part, that argument still holds true.

in PA's case, not so much. We discovered the same thing next door in A'stan.

Thanks in part to the GWOT and the various insurgent groups embedding themselves amongst the population, adoption of optics has become standard doctrine. I can't speak to the Army but Marine recruits spends almost no time on iron sights and focus solely on optics. Once they join the fleet, they will be issued with the latest optics and not the Acogs they used in boot.

FWIW, one of the targets we train with is the NATO Type E. See image below:

View attachment 205085

Dimensions are 19"W x 42"H. I can still comfortably put 25 hits in the black in a time limit of 50 seconds using my NMAR with a 4.5X optic.

If I can still do that at my age, any well-trained young infantryman should be able to as well.

One of these days, I may try it with my AR-6.5C. At the moment however I am focused on training for Camp Perry in a few weeks.

The Indian border at most of southern and central Pakistan is flat open desert means engagements will take place it long range distances.


This is where a hard hitting rifle that can shoot far will be important.

 

[AZ_HighCountry]

It's also a case of logistics, if PA ditches a 7.62x51 rifle it ditches it's entire stockpile of 7.62x51 ammo

Not necessarily. Keep the 7.62x51 for machine-guns then. Or, start to bleed it off either through natural reduction in stockpiles as the new rifle / caliber is adopted, surplus it out, etc.

Remember, in a span of 10 maybe 15 years the US went from .30-06 to 7.62x51 to 5.56x45 with 7.62x51 retained for the machine-guns.

In the meantime, up to and including the 1970s, a number of National Guard units were still carrying the M-1. Nor were those converted to 7.62x51. It was only the Navy that did so and in limited numbers. A LOT of .30-06 was surplussed out. I know, I have quite a bit of it.

 

[maxpane]

The Indian border at most of southern and central Pakistan is flat open desert means engagements will take place it long range distances.

View attachment 205091
This is where a hard hitting rifle that can shoot far will be important.

thats my city

 

[AZ_HighCountry]

The Indian border at most of southern and central Pakistan is flat open desert means engagements will take place it long range distances.

View attachment 205091
This is where a hard hitting rifle that can shoot far will be important.

And exactly why a 6.5 caliber rifle would still be ideal.

Here is a link you can follow:

308 Winchester vs 6.5 Creedmoor | Ballistics Comparison

Compare 308 Winchester and 6.5 Creedmoor ballistics side by side. See bullet drop, wind drift, and energy differences with data from our ballistics calculator.

ballisticscalculator.io

It compares the 7.62 with the 6.5 Creedmoor. Keep in mind it compares the two using a 175g Matchking for the 7.62x51 and a 140g ELD for the 6.5 Creedmoor. The 140g ELD is very close to what the military round is (140g Sierra OTM).

It is a very good comparison of the two rounds. It's also important to keep in mind the standard NATO 7.62x51 round uses either 147g or 150g FMJ-BT. That bullet has even worse ballistics. I'm not knowledgeable in what the PA uses. If they use the 147 or 150, then they have already handicapped themselves in several ways. The article lists the reasons so I won't summarize here. On top of that, out of the M-14 / G-3 / FAL / similar, the 147-150g FMJ is trans-sonic at about the 800 yard mark and is subsonic at 1000. The 6.5 140g OTM is still supersonic at 1200 yards.

@RescueRanger , food for the brain.

 

[Metal 0-1]

Well, look at the US. Big Army is determined to adopt a rifle as close in caliber as possible to .30 caliber along with the weight of the M-1 Garand or more.

Even the M-4A1 carbine unloaded weighs more than the M-16A1. Then, after adding all of the damn attachments, the grunt is right back to what the M-1 weighed perhaps more.

Enter into a license agreement with KAC and start manufacturing the SR-25 in 6.5C and call it a day. The 6.5 will give the PAK infantryman the range and punch necessary to address most problems without the weight and recoil of the G3.

6.5 Creedmore nah, not happening. The cost and logistics. Pakistani military can't afford it. Even in US military, 6.5 creedmore Giessele sniper rifles are issued in SOCOM only to replace the good ol' KAC SR-25

 

[AZ_HighCountry]

Agreed, SOCOM does have a better budget than regular infantry units.

I just get annoyed that Big Army wants to cling to a caliber that is 100+ years old when there are better options out there. I swear, when Gen. MacArthur was Army COS, he set the Army back and they've never really recovered. And that logic held when the debate around the NATO standard cartridge was going on.