JF-17 PFX program

[Dalit]

Don't talk to me in future tense. Right now you've only 20 J10C in active service
View attachment 29519

Look at Hindutva here. He obtained an official contract for the J-10C from the internet LOL

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Again, like many Indians, are you just hoping to post BS and hoping people just swallow it?

1) Since 2005 PAF has partcipated in approx 40 major domestic international exercises, this post of yours proves you know exactly nothing about the PAF.
2) PAF have a fleet of 10 Erieye and have been flying these for over 15 years, 10 enables a constant air presence, again, how can you be so ignorant?
3) Mica is outranged by PL-15 and AMRAAM. Thats pretty much a technical fact, now PAF have around 50 PL-15 equipped planes and around 75 AMRAAM equipped planes. JF-17C and J-10 numbers grow every year.

Please, at least try and gain some knowledge of facts before posting again

50 jets with AESA radars too! Plus EW/AD capability inaccessible to the PAF's adversaries....

 

[Dalit]

You asked a good question then answered it yourself lol.


Yes, but I'm pretty sure there's an AESA fire control radar program going on for a long time. I think it was started 2018 or 2019. @arslank01 knows more.


Yes, totally different systems. You know when you hear about the "quadruplex redundant flight control system" - they are talking about the FCC, not the mission computer. The FCC converts pilot wishes into aircraft reality basically. But you and most people know that.


Actually, in the late 90s/early2000s the Chinese were TOTALLY willing to share everything about the JF-17 with us. The issue was that there was NO CAPACITY to absorb this know-how in Pakistan. Before the JF17, PAC was essentially an overhaul facility. Consequently, PAF has lots of people that specialize in structures. Some in aerodynamics too. Lots of avionics engineers but these are basically for overhauling the electronics. Unfortunately, there was never a program in PAC that designed flight controls for anything. So there are basically no people that specialize in controls. It doesn't help that controls is also a difficult field and no officer wants to jeopardize their promotion by going into a difficult field that the force doesn't even care about. The only control engineers in Pakistan can be found in small pockets in SPD orgs because they work on designing FCCs for ballistic and cruise missiles, and UAVs. Their experience is extremely limited (having never worked on a full-size manned aircraft) but they were infinitely better suited to absorb the FCC part of the JF17. PAC just didn't. So it wasn't a matter of negotiations but a matter of capacity to absorb.


I wouldn't bring their religion (hindu) into this. They are basically like us but some things worked out better for them (like not having an overbearing military). But they have a lot of the mindset issues that we have too. But since they are progressing economically, these will change and their progress will become faster and faster, and we will be left behind further and further as we make buildings to house scientists with only hacks to put inside them.


I wrote extensively about that. It was 100 people doing CFD because that's all PAF people know (besides structures). It was a fever dream of a couple of people, high on their own BS. Things like that make me suspicious of all these claims. But I really do want to be proven wrong.



Interesting point: We do things backwards lol. Azm -> PFX -> LIFT -> Mushaak.

I think you're even underestimating how difficult it is to design a LIFT type aircraft. Look how advanced Turkish aerospace industry is and how long it took for them to make the Hurjet. A full-sized, manned jet is SO complicated that Pakistan would literally struggle to find enough qualified (not talented even) people to fill the roles. Even Turkey had to rely on people from abroad and their HR is lightyears ahead of ours.

PAC should remain in the business of overhaul. The business of R&D should be left to R&D organizations - and no I don't mean the SPD model but more open R&D orgs, which I hear SPD is pivoting towards with things like Qaswa but lets see how well that pans out.


I don't enjoy spreading mayoosi but I also don't want these Babus to make fools of our people all the time. It's just sad. These babus are like the emperor in the emperor's new clothes.

As long as this JF-17 PFX doesn’t become another Azm. I just don’t understand something about the Pakistani leaders and institutions. Why are they always so eager to reinvent the wheel? They literally have China on their side. China develops and delivers anything that Pakistan seeks. Even to the point where Pakistan seeks custom made hardware. Why won’t Pakistan cooperate more closely with China to train and develop indigenous capabilities at home if there is such an urge to go local? Why does Pakistan announce such vague domestic projects that often don’t have a positive outcome? If we as laymen understand this why don’t these people in charge? It doesn’t make any sense to me.

Everyone knew the fate of Azm. The day it was announced. Yet, they went ahead and fooled themselves.

 

[FuturePAF]

It wouldn’t also make sense to make(if PFX is a new block or redesign) a semi stealth block-4 if it is going to be the same weight category and be held back with the same constraints.
My speculation is the PAF due to budget issues would rather have a localized JF-17 medium weight fighter like j-10c rather than buying more j-10s.
It’s all guess work if PFX is really a rework or is more localization for the jet.

So a PF-X with a WS-10 class engine?

 

[FuturePAF]

As long as this JF-17 PFX doesn’t become another Azm. I just don’t understand something about the Pakistani leaders and institutions. Why are they always so eager to reinvent the wheel? They literally have China on their side. China develops and delivers anything that Pakistan seeks. Even to the point where Pakistan seeks custom made hardware. Why won’t Pakistan cooperate more closely with China to train and develop indigenous capabilities at home if there is such an urge to go local? Why does Pakistan announce such vague domestic projects that often don’t have a positive outcome? If we as laymen understand this why don’t these people in charge? It doesn’t make any sense to me.

Everyone knew the fate of Azm. The day it was announced. Yet, they went ahead and fooled themselves.

These projects are probably a process to train local engineers and do a transfer of technology through practical projects.

 

[Dalit]

These projects are probably a process to train local engineers and do a transfer of technology through practical projects.

I hope so.

 

[MasterChief]

These projects are probably a process to train local engineers and do a transfer of technology through practical projects.

Hope something comes out of such projects and they don't remain marketing stunts for people asking for extensions and black holes for funds in a debt ridden country.

 

[Yasser76]

As long as this JF-17 PFX doesn’t become another Azm. I just don’t understand something about the Pakistani leaders and institutions. Why are they always so eager to reinvent the wheel? They literally have China on their side. China develops and delivers anything that Pakistan seeks. Even to the point where Pakistan seeks custom made hardware. Why won’t Pakistan cooperate more closely with China to train and develop indigenous capabilities at home if there is such an urge to go local? Why does Pakistan announce such vague domestic projects that often don’t have a positive outcome? If we as laymen understand this why don’t these people in charge? It doesn’t make any sense to me.

Everyone knew the fate of Azm. The day it was announced. Yet, they went ahead and fooled themselves.

Fair point, however often project names are just a way of classifying liscence built projects often, like Anza or Haider

 

[PakShaheen79]

As long as this JF-17 PFX doesn’t become another Azm. I just don’t understand something about the Pakistani leaders and institutions. Why are they always so eager to reinvent the wheel? They literally have China on their side. China develops and delivers anything that Pakistan seeks. Even to the point where Pakistan seeks custom made hardware. Why won’t Pakistan cooperate more closely with China to train and develop indigenous capabilities at home if there is such an urge to go local? Why does Pakistan announce such vague domestic projects that often don’t have a positive outcome? If we as laymen understand this why don’t these people in charge? It doesn’t make any sense to me.

Everyone knew the fate of Azm. The day it was announced. Yet, they went ahead and fooled themselves.

So, What became of Azm? Failure! I think that's no completely true. Last we heard about Azm's NGF program, We heard that a 3rd preliminary design concept study was completed and then ... nothing! So the verdict was Failure. This is one way of looking at it. I believe it was this design concept study which led to the creation of NASTP.
Now, if we listen to the CDP, CEO of NATSP here

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It is exactly what you have said that why Pakistan need to reinvent the wheel a statement which is again not completely true in context of Azm as when it was announced by Ex CAS ACM Sohail Oman, he said the cooperation from friendly countries would be sought. So what happened. As per my understanding, after carrying out initial design studies, PAF actually realized the whooping gaps in missing technologies, experties, and knowledge base.
Now, check this screen grab from NASTP's inagural cermony... can you recognize this face in red circle?
CEO of Turkish Bayker company that makes TB2 and Akinci.
So, over all strategic direction is the same. Model of PAF's Azm are also displayed in NASTP. Now we can move on to difficult questions to critically analyze this thing;
1. Will NASTP solve PAF's technical shortcomings in context of Azm?
Ans: It has potential but to capitalize this potential, government of Pakistan will have to take the ownership of this thing just like our nuclear and missile program as strategic national endeavor as in context of contemporary warfare, seeking technical autonomy (as much as possible) is as critical as acquiring unconventional deterrence.
2. How much time it can take?
Ans: Again, depends on how serious various divisions of NATSP are developed and provided with resources and how good project management is. In Cyber domain, for example, PAF is collaborating with NETSOL (Pakistan's largest software house). We need more such collaboration in everywhere, particular in Aviation design, AI, etc. Just keep in mind, this is a marathon, don't expect early results considering the state of our economy and growing political instability.
3. Is PAF flying solo in NATSP/AZM?
Ans: No, like I said above, PAF actually realized the sheer scale of work required to be done after studying the design in multiple iterations. Obviously, when you carry out such studies, you mark your requirements and the venues from where you are going to secure supplies. There was too much that was missing. That's why foreign help is being sought, rightfully so.

So, all in all, it is just a start. We might have to wait patiently before anything solid comes out. Azm was NOT declared in the 1980's ... It is less than even 10 years. Dassault had a wealth of knowledge and tech when they embarked on designing Rafale so what happened? First flight in 1986 and induction in French AF in 2001. 15 years long gap. That was France and here people are expecting a NGF flying out of PAC as a result of the project that was announced in PAKISTAN just less than 10 years ago.

 

[Dreamer]

A bit of finishing touch & most important one:

"conceptual and ground-breaking study to assess the contemporary future air and space quantum warfare under the visionary leadership of worthy air chief NI, HI, SI, TI, lord of the air battle Air Marshal Zaheer Ahmad Sidhu.

Correction.... Air Chief Marshal.

 

[Jamie]

So a PF-X with a WS-10 class engine?

Pretty much. If PFX is a new fighter based of JF-17 then it absolutely will be a medium weight fighter. PAF were quite pleased with J-10C’s. But buying more means need for $ which puts the need for indigenization . Thus if PFX is actually more than just localization of rest of JF-17 manufacturing line then my 2cents tell me they trying their hands at something achievable.
It won’t be a true 5th gen but later blocks might be for PFX.
Just my speculations… I could be way off and PFX might end up being way less ambitious.

 

[Jamie]

Pretty much. If PFX is a new fighter based of JF-17 then it absolutely will be a medium weight fighter. PAF were quite pleased with J-10C’s. But buying more means need for $ which puts the need for indigenization . Thus if PFX is actually more than just localization of rest of JF-17 manufacturing line then my 2cents tell me they trying their hands at something achievable.
It won’t be a true 5th gen but later blocks might be for PFX.
Just my speculations… I could be way off and PFX might end up being way less ambitious.

When the japanese made their own F-16 copy called the F-2 they actually made it with a little enlarged airframe. Both the wings and the radar dome were larger.


In theory the JF-17 could be enlarged to wield a ws-10 class engine with structural reinforcements.
Although this would have them completely redo the flight control systems.

 

[FuturePAF]

Pretty much. If PFX is a new fighter based of JF-17 then it absolutely will be a medium weight fighter. PAF were quite pleased with J-10C’s. But buying more means need for $ which puts the need for indigenization . Thus if PFX is actually more than just localization of rest of JF-17 manufacturing line then my 2cents tell me they trying their hands at something achievable.
It won’t be a true 5th gen but later blocks might be for PFX.
Just my speculations… I could be way off and PFX might end up being way less ambitious.

There was always a feeling by many on this forum, for years, the design was limited by being a light fighter. Going for a medium weight category can allow the plane to take on the Su-30MKI and Rafale from better position.

 

[Awan68]

PFX might just be a TOT for local production of J-10 with some modifications per PAF needs.

 

[Oscar]

When the japanese made their own F-16 copy called the F-2 they actually made it with a little enlarged airframe. Both the wings and the radar dome were larger.
View attachment 29860

In theory the JF-17 could be enlarged to wield a ws-10 class engine with structural reinforcements.
Although this would have them completely redo the flight control systems.

The Japanese didn’t do that much - the F-2 came off the Agile Falcon program and then from there they started adding composites and other systems all under guidance from LM… which also led to the F-2 being a nightmare initially with cracks and everything - not to mention costs being 4 times a normal F-16.