Replicate US Drone Operations of 2000s to combat new wave of terrorism in South KP and Balochistan

[Xestan]

Anyone familiar with some knowledge of CIA's drone operations in Pakistani tribal areas would tell you that they were effective, quick and worked while keeping American troops safe from any physical engagements. It did have a very adverse effect in politics and otherwise because of some of the attacks resulting in very high collateral damage, but that's not my subject today, and I hope other contributors stay on topic.

There have been multiple acknowledgements from both, the Pakistan Military and the so-called Pashtoon nationalists, that Drones indeed did target terrorists in both Waziristan.

CIA's drone ops almost ended in South Waziristan after Operation Raah-e-Nijaat, but they continued in North Waziristan for next 5 years until Operation Zarb-e-Azb was launched and TTP was uprooted. In those 5 years, US Drones were the only friends troops of 7th Div had. Every other day, while the troops would move to their Div HQ in Miranshah, there would be ambush and IED attacks. We lost more soldiers in those five years to IEDs than we did in whole of Op Zarb-e-Azb combat.

So, the reason of this thread was to open a discussion, that Pakistan needs to move away from IBOs and small quadcopters which have little firepower and have limited engagement range and armament.

Either a dedicated force which uses UCAVs, which can be deployed rabidly whenever troops on the ground need support, or whenever there's actionable intelligence on movement of a Tashkeel.

Right now, we are losing troops everyday, the casualties are not sustainable at all and we need to at least raise this topic with viable solutions, at least make a difference at our end. In the past, I know this for a fact that a good discussion on PDF has reached the quarters where it mattered, and I hope this does too.

 

[Areesh]

Yes drones should be used. Some are used even now. At least the lnes used in noshki were not quadcopters

But the biggest question that Pakistani state faces today is what it is supposed to do with Afghanistan. What should be its policy towards Afghanistan and all the terrorists that are comfortably living inside Afghanistan for years now

 

[Distant_Observer]

Authorise hot pursuit.

 

[hasssanali8998]

*in afghanistan

collective punishment never works

 

[RealNapster]

Anyone familiar with some knowledge of CIA's drone operations in Pakistani tribal areas would tell you that they were effective, quick and worked while keeping American troops safe from any physical engagements.

They didn't care about collateral damage (civilians deaths) because those being killed were not their citizens.

If you also consider those civilians NOT YOUR CITIZENS than go ahead. Kill 1000+ civilians for 100 militants. That's what the CIA drone operations actually resulted in.

Sanjay Singhania in Gajni had better memory than Pakistanis.

 

[Blain2]

They didn't care about collateral damage (civilians deaths) because those being killed were not their citizens.

If you also consider those civilians NOT YOUR CITIZENS than go ahead. Kill 1000+ civilians for 100 militants. That's what the CIA drone operations actually resulted in.

Sanjay Singhania in Gajni had better memory than Pakistanis.

There were studies done back then too and those got drowned in the anti-American noise. The findings were that a large majority of deaths were of the militants however, there was some collateral damage as well.

Pakistan would need better intelligence on the ground to avoid deaths of civilians, but long endurance UCAVs are the need of the hour and such modalities should be exercised against both the BLA and TTP with an extremely high tempo.

 

[RealNapster]

There were studies done back then too and those got drowned in the anti-American noise. The findings were that a large majority of deaths were of the militants however, there was some collateral damage as well.

Pakistan would need better intelligence on the ground to avoid deaths of civilians, but long endurance UCAVs are the need of the hour and such modalities should be exercised against both the BLA and TTP with an extremely high tempo.

The current drone operations using Quadcopters are working fine. A quadcopter can offer range of 20 km normally. It is a safe distance for our security personnel to operate from. US had no choice but to resort to such drone attacks from thousands of km away because they were killing foreign terrorists in a foreign land with no jurisdiction. The same is not the case with Pakistan. It can actually operate on ground using quadcopters and other such small drones which largely reduces chance of civilian deaths because of low intensity and pinpoint attacks using small warheads.

And we have all seen the limitations of "intelligence" at our end so lets not bet too much on that.

We do need long endurance and range drones, but they should not make our core response to these operations. They should be mainly used for intelligence gathering and surveillance. Or maybe in big attacks where say 100+ terrrorusts try to take a whole town like they do in baluchistan these days.

 

[Watandar]

Oh yeah, let US drones take off from Pakistani bases in Baluchistan to bomb Pakistan itself hundreds of times , causing thousands of innocent lives. That level of access also let America insert Blackwater operators and later conduct the OBL raid!

Let me also point out that we are not in the 2000s anymore and thanks to your very knowledgable and farsighted GHQ, terrorists have the ENTIRETY of Afghanistan to hide in, in addition to KP , fata and Baluchistan.

Where do you people even come from ???

 

[flyingorca]

Not sure why the Army has not adopted tethered system on a trucks or armoured carriers. Such system will provide better situational awareness in hostile roads.

 

[Xestan]

They didn't care about collateral damage (civilians deaths) because those being killed were not their citizens.

If you also consider those civilians NOT YOUR CITIZENS than go ahead. Kill 1000+ civilians for 100 militants. That's what the CIA drone operations actually resulted in.

Sanjay Singhania in Gajni had better memory than Pakistanis.

Please read up on the numbers first. US Drones were effective in targeting terrorists and they also minimized the collateral damage.

According to Long War Journal civilian casualties were 5%. But there was a study conducted by 7 Div back in 2011. According to the local intel reports and on ground assessment, the civilian casualties were even lower than 5 % in the later years.

This, btw, includes terrorists' families.

Was it pretty for politics? No!
Was it effective and helped the troops? Absolutely Yes!

 

[RealNapster]

Please read up on the numbers first. US Drones were effective in targeting terrorists and they also minimized the collateral damage.

According to Long War Journal civilian casualties were 5%. But there was a study conducted by 7 Div back in 2011. According to the local intel reports and on ground assessment, the civilian casualties were even lower than 5 % in the later years.

This, btw, includes terrorists' families.

Was it pretty for politics? No!
Was it effective and helped the troops? Absolutely Yes!

If you can ensure 24/7 spot on sirvailance like CIA, and ensure a less than 5% civilian fatality rate, then go for it. But look at the condition of our intelligence, even in our IBOs (intelligence based operations), our soldier to terrorist death ratio is around 1 to 2.5-3.

We lack credible intelligence reporting. I think that is non undeniable by this point. So should we go into that direction when We know we will fcukup ?

The current drone based operations are working just fine. We only need to ensure consistency and expand drone surveillance, for credible and timely intelligence.

 

[Xestan]

If you can ensure 24/7 spot on sirvailance like CIA, and ensure a less than 5% civilian fatality rate, then go for it. But look at the condition of our intelligence, even in our IBOs (intelligence based operations), our soldier to terrorist death ratio is around 1 to 2.5-3.

We lack credible intelligence reporting. I think that is non undeniable by this point. So should we go into that direction when We know we will fcukup ?

The current drone based operations are working just fine. We only need to ensure consistency and expand drone surveillance, for credible and timely intelligence.

I'm in total agreement with you about the condition of our intelligence in exFata, especially the poor performance of our HUMINT.

The idea behind this thread wasn't to propose a mindless drone campaign, but to improve the firepower and endurance of drone operations. It goes without saying that overhauling of intel structure is need of the hour. I still believe Lt. Gen. (R) Tariq Khan's idea of giving local commanders the operational lead in intel ops is the way to go.

Anyways, I disagree about current drone ops. There are plenty of examples how the QCs were so inadequate for some important engagement that using them there was instead of bigger guns was criminal negligence. A Tashkeel of 100+ Tangos were allowed to escape NW border back to Afghanistan (I might be forgetting the exact sector) in 2025 because we couldn't effectively target a large area with one strike.

 

[RealNapster]

I'm in total agreement with you about the condition of our intelligence in exFata, especially the poor performance of our HUMINT.

The idea behind this thread wasn't to propose a mindless drone campaign, but to improve the firepower and endurance of drone operations. It goes without saying that overhauling of intel structure is need of the hour. I still believe Lt. Gen. (R) Tariq Khan's idea of giving local commanders the operational lead in intel ops is the way to go.

Anyways, I disagree about current drone ops. There are plenty of examples how the QCs were so inadequate for some important engagement that using them there was instead of bigger guns was criminal negligence. A Tashkeel of 100+ Tangos were allowed to escape NW border back to Afghanistan (I might be forgetting the exact sector) in 2025 because we couldn't effectively target a large area with one strike.

Yes. And because you posted this thread in 2025 at which time our quadcopter drone game was not so active and good. I believe you maybe satisfied from the growth that we saw in this side in last one year. Our armed forces did more quadcopter operations than anyone till date. It means something. But I agree these will not take the major load which drones like Akinci or Shahpar can.

Thats why I am in support of a mix. Largely using quadcopters to ensure very little damage to property and chance of civilian casualties. But if needed, a shahpar or Akinci should be able to reach that site in an hour. That is why I posted a thread which discussed the idea of developing Khuzdar airbase for drone and helicopter warfare. Because sending drones from quetta or QRF incase of attacks takes hours.

Slowly, we need to keep filling these gaps in our capabilities.