The Case for Pakistan as a Civilizational State

[Neojinnah]

The fact that despite many powers coming and going it still unified into what appears to closely match the boundaries of the IVC. Technically we could say Indian Punjabis and Gujarat are more Pakistani than full Indian.

View attachment 214889

This is not a coincedence.

It is completely coincidental. The demographics, culture, economy, society, etc of Pakistan are wildly different from ancient IVC for there to be a connection between the two.

Thank you for explaining your position. I respectfully disagree.

I will not have the birthright of Pakistan surrendered to either India (who claim it erroneously in its entirety) or to Iran by default (the only alternative that is even remotely plausible, on the basis of distant genetic descendancy)....or even leave it unclaimed.

You're right that Pakistan's inception and purpose had little to do with the IVC, but it is ours, as much as the air, land, mountains, and sea that exist within our bounds. Just as we would defend the smallest and most barren patch of nothingness within our borders, the same goes for a long lost and ancient civilisation that resided here and - importantly - did actually contribute massively to our modern genome, even if nothing else.

You're not arguing from a place of truth anymore, you're arguing as a partisan person. It doesn't make sense at all to me why Pakistanis should lie to themselves and make it more difficult to understand the nature and history of their own country and people to claim an ancient civilization which collapsed by itself.

 

[HamzaOI]

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[vasanthm]

How does sitting on the same land make Pakistan a continuation of the IVC? Harappa and Mohenjdaro are part of your heritage but that doesn't make Pakistan itself a civilisational state.

For India you can actually point to things people still do. Vedic hymns passed down for over 3000 years are still being chanted. Keralas Koodiyattam tradition goes back over 2000 years. Worship at the Chola temples, including Brihadisvara carries on traditions from roughly a thousand years ago. There are people keeping these things alive generation after generation linking the land culture and the people to present day India. Even UNESCO documents this. So what is the equivalent link between the IVC and Pakistani national identity? That’s the bit you still need to explain and you cannot.

Both republics are modern creations. But 'our country is new, our civilisation isnt' needs something behind it. The ruins are on your side of the border only gets you so far. You can’t just point at a map and call the argument is done and dusted.

 

[Master Chief]

How does sitting on the same land make Pakistan a continuation of the IVC?

Are Pakistanis migrants from somewhere or do we share actual DNA with Harappans?

 

[Master Chief]

You're not arguing from a place of truth anymore, you're arguing as a partisan person. It doesn't make sense at all to me why Pakistanis should lie to themselves and make it more difficult to understand the nature and history of their own country and people to claim an ancient civilization which collapsed by itself.

It doesn't have to make sense to you. Facts are Facts.

The Harappan genomeE gave RISE TO modern Pakistanis.

 

[vasanthm]

View attachment 215014

Are Pakistanis migrants from somewhere or do we share actual DNA with Harappans?View attachment 215015

Nobody said your ancestors arrived in 1947, on a lighter note your state might claim so.

You inherit DNA from your ancestors, not their institutions, beliefs and cultural practices through your chromosomes. That’s the continuity you need to demonstrate.

The question was how Pakistan continues Harappan civilisation or for that matter has any civilisational link to it, not whether Pakistanis had great grandparents. A pie chart isn’t going to bridge that gap.

If anything, you could make a clearer case for civilisational links with Arabia through Islam, or Persia through language, literature and culture. Those connections actually show up in everyday Pakistani life. But apparently when it comes to Harappa, a DNA chart will do instead

 

[vasanthm]

It doesn't have to make sense to you. Facts are Facts.

The Harappan genomeE gave RISE TO modern Pakistanis.

'Facts are facts' isn’t a substitute for joining the dots

Genes spread through migration intermarriage, wars and colonial conquests too. An tribal African child with a colonial European ancestor, does that make their country a continuation of European civilisation?

You keep proving ancestry and calling it civilisational continuity. Nobody’s disputing that you inherited some genes among many others. We’re asking which Harappan institutions, beliefs or traditions you’ve carried forward to prove civilisational link. Saying 'genome' louder doesn’t answer that.

 

[Master Chief]

Nobody said your ancestors arrived in 1947, on a lighter note your state might claim so.

You inherit DNA from your ancestors, not their institutions, beliefs and cultural practices through your chromosomes. That’s the continuity you need to demonstrate.

The question was how Pakistan continues Harappan civilisation or for that matter has any civilisational link to it, not whether Pakistanis had great grandparents. A pie chart isn’t going to bridge that gap.

If anything, you could make a clearer case for civilisational links with Arabia through Islam, or Persia through language, literature and culture. Those connections actually show up in everyday Pakistani life. But apparently when it comes to Harappa, a DNA chart will do instead

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan is the successor state of Harappa. The Secular Republic of India is further away genetically AND religiously (insofar as religion being the only "proxy" that one may deploy for "culture", as nebulous a term as that is in this particular context).

As far as we know, Harappans ate plenty of meat, including plenty of beef.

Beef abstinence (and meat abstinence) is a belief imported from Vedic philosophy, not from pre-existing Harappan cultural practice. There is ample evidence to suggest that the deities worshipped in Harappa were simply appropriated by Vedic culture. I am not sure where you get this hopium that modern hindus are somehow "adherents" of ancient Harappan religion.

Any vedic/sanskrit texts that you can show us from Harappan archives?

Regarding beef consumption:

Indus Valley civilisation had meat-heavy diets, preference for beef, reveals study

The research offers insights into the food patterns of ancient South Asia by using lipid residue analysis.

www.scroll.in

You are as "culturally foreign" to the Harappans as we are. Just because you borrowed their deity and still cursed them as Mleccha, it doesn't give you authority to appropriate them when it suits you.

How ancient DNA may rewrite prehistory in India

Aryans are not the earliest or only source of Indian civilisation, suggests new research on genetic ancestry.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Master Chief]

'Facts are facts' isn’t a substitute for joining the dots

Genes spread through migration intermarriage, wars and colonial conquests too. An tribal African child with a colonial European ancestor, does that make their country a continuation of European civilisation?

Try to make sense.

I have shown that is well demonstrated that the average genome of modern Pakistanis OVERALL (not some EXCEPTION of a single case of insertion of foreign genes into an established genome, as per your "tribal child with colonial European ancestor" example illustrates) is MAJORITY DERIVED from Harappan DNA.

It is ludicrous to suggest modern Pakistanis are not "native" to this land. If you wish to make that suggestion, please try.

 

[Master Chief]

If anything, you could make a clearer case for civilisational links with Arabia through Islam, or Persia through language, literature and culture. Those connections actually show up in everyday Pakistani life. But apparently when it comes to Harappa, a DNA chart will do instead

Great. Sanskrit comes from Indo-European languages, whose prototypical forms came from where again?

The genetic origin of the Indo-Europeans - Nature

Ancient DNA reveals how the explosive expansion of Yamnaya steppe pastoralists began with a small community north of the Black Sea speaking ancestral Indo-European, and detects genetic links with Anatolian speakers, stemming from a common Indo-Anatolian homeland in the North Caucasus–lower Volga...

www.nature.com

"...landmark studies, published Wednesday in the journal Nature, has finally identified the originators of the Indo-European family of 400-plus languages, spoken today by more than 40 percent of the world’s population.

DNA evidence places them in current-day Russia during the Eneolithic period about 6,500 years ago. These linguistic pioneers were spread from the steppe grasslands along the lower Volga River to the northern foothills of the Caucasus Mountains, with researchers dubbing them the Caucasus Lower Volga people. Genetic results show they mixed with other groups in the region.

“It’s a very early manifestation of some of the cultural traditions that later spread across the steppe,” said senior author David Reich, a professor of genetics at Harvard Medical School and human evolutionary biology in the Faculty of Arts and Sciences.

The research provides the missing piece of a longstanding linguistic puzzle.

Scholars first noted similarities among the far-flung languages of Latin, Greek, and Sanskrit in the late 18th century. The so-called steppe hypothesis, formulated during the 19th century and formalized in the 1950s, postulated that speakers of the ancestor language of the Indo-European group lived on the Eurasian steppe. Scholars drew on linguistic reconstructions and archaeological evidence to place them in an area where Russia and Ukraine stand today."

Ukraine and Russia are a long way from India.

 

[vasanthm]

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan is the successor state of Harappa. The Secular Republic of India is further away genetically AND religiously (insofar as religion being the only "proxy" that one may deploy for "culture", as nebulous a term as that is in this particular context).

As far as we know, Harappans ate plenty of meat, including plenty of beef.

Beef abstinence (and meat abstinence) is a belief imported from Vedic philosophy, not from pre-existing Harappan cultural practice. There is ample evidence to suggest that the deities worshipped in Harappa were simply appropriated by Vedic culture. I am not sure where you get this hopium that modern hindus are somehow "adherents" of ancient Harappan religion.

Any vedic/sanskrit texts that you can show us from Harappan archives?

Regarding beef consumption:



View attachment 215037

Indus Valley civilisation had meat-heavy diets, preference for beef, reveals study

The research offers insights into the food patterns of ancient South Asia by using lipid residue analysis.

www.scroll.in

View attachment 215033

You are as "culturally foreign" to the Harappans as we are. Just because you borrowed their deity and still cursed them as Mleccha, it doesn't give you authority to appropriate them when it suits you.

How ancient DNA may rewrite prehistory in India

Aryans are not the earliest or only source of Indian civilisation, suggests new research on genetic ancestry.

www.bbc.co.uk

Call it borrowing, appropriation or whatever you like, you’re still arguing that Harappan deities passed into later Indian religious traditions. That’s a claim of cultural continuity, even if you don’t like the wording

So your own argument offers India a link through religious traditions. Where’s the equivalent link to modern Pakistan? So far you’ve offered a mish mash of genes and a shared taste for beef.

 

[Master Chief]

Call it borrowing, appropriation or whatever you like, you’re still arguing that Harappan deities passed into later Indian religious traditions. That’s a claim of cultural continuity, even if you don’t like the wording

So your own argument offers India a link through religious traditions. Where’s the equivalent link to modern Pakistan? So far you’ve offered a mish mash of genes and a shared taste for beef.

I have offered evidence to position Pakistan as being closer than India on genetic, religious, and cultural fronts. Regarding linguistics, there is no local continuity that India can claim, let alone continuity with the undeciphered script of Harappa (unless you wish to go the way of your countryman and tell me that "no proven link" means "possible link").

Appropriating a deity (Shiva) does not create religious congruence. This is quite a stretch of the imagination.

There are echoes of Christianity in Roman mythological religious doctrine. That doe not create a sudden case for Christendom (or any majority Christian country) to "claim" Italy.

 

[vasanthm]

I have offered evidence to position Pakistan as being closer than India on genetic, religious, and cultural fronts. Regarding linguistics, there is no local continuity that India can claim, let alone continuity with the undeciphered script of Harappa (unless you wish to go the way of your countryman and tell me that "no proven link" means "possible link").

Appropriating a deity (Shiva) does not create religious congruence. This is quite a stretch of the imagination.

There are echoes of Christianity in Roman mythological religious doctrine. That doe not create a sudden case for Christendom (or any majority Christian country) to "claim" Italy.

So where do you think Hindu beliefs and culture developed? Persia, Arabia or Russia?

Ppl here just argued that later Indian traditions absorbed a Harappan deity. Now apparently that transmission counts for nothing, but sharing ancestry and eating beef establishes Pakistan’s continuity?

Nobody said continuity means everything stayed unchanged. Why does India need identical beliefs while Pakistan gets by with a DNA chart?

 

[El Sidd]

A lot more than yours that it started in Mughal Empire. The Bharati propaganda historiography claims it to be from the Dehli Sultanate, not the Mughal Empire.

It's more like you being heavily confused; especially by the name which did indeed start in the Mughal Empire and the myths attached to it.

Maybe but there's very little curiosity about Urdu.

 

[Distant_Observer]

How does sitting on the same land make Pakistan a continuation of the IVC? Harappa and Mohenjdaro are part of your heritage but that doesn't make Pakistan itself a civilisational state.

For India you can actually point to things people still do. Vedic hymns passed down for over 3000 years are still being chanted. Keralas Koodiyattam tradition goes back over 2000 years. Worship at the Chola temples, including Brihadisvara carries on traditions from roughly a thousand years ago. There are people keeping these things alive generation after generation linking the land culture and the people to present day India. Even UNESCO documents this. So what is the equivalent link between the IVC and Pakistani national identity? That’s the bit you still need to explain and you cannot.

Both republics are modern creations. But 'our country is new, our civilisation isnt' needs something behind it. The ruins are on your side of the border only gets you so far. You can’t just point at a map and call the argument is done and dusted.

@Master Chief genetic markers is the hard evidence North Western region of the subcontinent belongs to Indus/Pakistan.

hinduvita revisionism is a cope for Indians.