Iranian Air Force (IRIAF/IRGC-ASF) | News and Discussions

[Piet]

- Too small and short ranged airframes with small radar for our terrain, cant reach battle zones in future iraqi airspace with energy carrying 6+ LR BVRs. We need tracking (not searching) range of 220-250 KM with 6 x LR-BVR for thwarting IAF over iraq, something to replace F-14 and only SU-35S armed with R-37 and Khibiny ECM fits the bill.

I agree with you as far as the required tracking range of 220 -250km is concerned.

SU-35 will suffice for this role.

However, failing which, the IRIAF will have to make do with what it has.

- Again dependence upon Russia for engines, China for avionics, spares, missiles etc. You completely neglected my "absolute indigenousization" post about MIG-29/31 saga above which you agreed with before.

- Too small and short ranged airframes with small radar for our terrain, cant reach battle zones in future iraqi airspace with energy carrying 6+ LR BVRs. We need tracking (not searching) range of 220-250 KM with 6 x LR-BVR for thwarting IAF over iraq, something to replace F-14 and only SU-35S armed with R-37 and Khibiny ECM fits the bill.

- Again dependence upon Russia for engines, China for avionics, spares, missiles etc. You completely neglected my "absolute indigenousization" post about MIG-29/31 saga above which you agreed with before.

Not willfully of course. And I still agree with you.

While absolute indigenousization is what should be strived for, that is taking off-the-shelf items as a given, there will always remain some components that cannot be sourced off the shelf, or produced locally.

Piet

 

[ToddE]

I agree with you as far as the required tracking range of 220 -250km is concerned.

SU-35 will suffice for this role.

However, failing which, the IRIAF will have to make do with what it has.

We dont need small or Light CAP fighters for which we will again be begging to Russia and China for parts and everything else. We wont be able to operate them outside IADS cover so what value are we adding to our current capability?

Not willfully of course. And I still agree with you.

While absolute indigenousization is what should be strived for, that is taking off-the-shelf items as a given, there will always remain some components that cannot be sourced off the shelf, or produced locally.

Piet

for Light CAP in form of Kowsar, we have accomplished the "absolute indigenousization", the same for IADS assets and drones.

Larger, long-ranged interceptor remains a problem for us. SU-35S remains the solution unless leadership shows balls for once and orders a complete rebuilding-upgradation of F-14 fleet. if each airframe eats up 25 Million USD then so be it. We dont need to operate them every hour, just use them to secure Iraqi air-space which can be a vulnerable zone.

A more practical and permanent solution will again be exptension of IADS into Iraq to the point that any entering plane can be searched/tracked and fired upon from within Iraq using Iranian HIMADSs/SHORAD layers.

 

[Immortals]

J-10A/B was offered but Iranian pilots were more interested in larger ranged SU-35S and SU-30SM from Russia. Russians initially were reluctant to even put SU-35S on the table and instead were offering SU-27K which is SU-35S's original designation (older built airframe). Iran kept on pressing for SU-35S which was finally agreed during General Bagheri's visit to Moscow where he met with Shoigu and Putin in person. This time they refused to give R-37 and Khibiny ECM pods without which SU-35S is useless for Iran because it wont be able to replace F-14A/AM.

Unless the Chinese put out J-15/16 on market with AESA radars so powerful that can track fighters at 200+ KM and fire some thwarting ARH BVR weapon at 200 KM range, they have no plane that can be useful to Iran. Iran has zero aerial threat from Persian Gulf/North west because of their bases being juicy targets for IRGC-Aerospace force and we cant fight USAF/USN even if we have 250 SU-35S.

Our only actual aerial threat right now is that IAF can breach the Iraqi airspace from the banana republic of Jordan to launch an ALBM at south western Iran. For that we need long ranged, fast interceptor that can track a huge RCS F-15 at ~220-250 KM and launch thwarting BVRs at it to disrupt its ALBM launch zone approach.

Or we can provide and train PMU in Iraq to use HIMADs/SHORADS, something we could not do in Syria.



Russians can even provide SU-35S to themselves, I posted a link before in which their own revealed production plan is merely of 12 airframes in 2025.

There was a rumor I don’t know if you remember a few years ago that Iranian pilots reviewed Chinese planes they were offering and weren’t impressed. Who knows if it’s true or not. I still don’t see China giving us any arms. They haven’t even given Russia any major arms support hence why Russia relies on NK and Iran.

As for SU-35 production I have seen several deliveries this year including SU-57.

Honestly at this point, Iran should try to get joint production of SU-75 checkmate as a future proof purchase. SU-35 is merely a stop gap until an eventual Iranian interceptor (hopefully god willing) or a day when Russia and China help Iran more (SU-57, FC-31)

 

[hid3nZm0k3y]

One of the first fallacies you brothers do is assume iran is alone. Unlike western barbarians we the resistance axis are brothers. Perhaps Iraq or Syria should focus in airforce and Iran should on missiles. Why should each member do everything alone. When the great malhama is on our doorsteps we should unite our efforts. Perhaps Iraq can procure j10s and Syria can go for su30s. Iran should imo focus on what keeps Jews awake at nights hypersonic bms. Any future procurement should focus on Drones and unmanned fighters. Perhaps unmanned f5s are a better use of resources, can even use them in very versatile ways.

 

[Immortals]

Perhaps Iraq or Syria should focus in airforce

1) fighter jet engines are one of the most difficult technologies to master, only a handful of countries can build an engine from scratch that is reliable, cost effective, and high perfomance grade

2) fighter jet programs without foreign aid are very expensive

3) Iraq and Syria lack the engineering base to build such things.

4) Syria is bankrupt


These are just a few reasons why a Syria/Iraqi based developmental program is a non starter.

 

[hid3nZm0k3y]

1) fighter jet engines are one of the most difficult technologies to master, only a handful of countries can build an engine from scratch that is reliable, cost effective, and high perfomance grade

2) fighter jet programs without foreign aid are very expensive

3) Iraq and Syria lack the engineering base to build such things.

4) Syria is bankrupt


These are just a few reasons why a Syria/Iraqi based developmental program is a non starter.

And what is your view on drone and unmanned fighter based airforce. It can be used in dangerous and versatile ways. More maneuverability in gs than a human pilot can endure. Maybe kamikaze f5s dogfighters and f14s as homebrew missile trucks. It's not the size of the dog in the fight but size of fight in the dog that counts. A small unmanned and dangerous airforce that may get written off in early days but cause massive bleeding.

 

[Immortals]

And what is your view on drone and unmanned fighter based airforce. It can be used in dangerous and versatile ways. More maneuverability in gs than a human pilot can endure. Maybe kamikaze f5s dogfighters and f14s as homebrew missile trucks.

That drone jet that you want to be more maneuverable than a human based jet still needs a strong engine. You are still stuck at the beginning of the problem: a strong jet engine. You can’t magically skip this step. The vast majority of Iran’s drones today are either prop or turboprop. A few are microjet.

And a drone jet needs Sat Coms with strong datalink or else you are relying on ground based stations which are range limited and prone to jamming/ECW.

 

[hid3nZm0k3y]

That drone jet that you want to be more maneuverable than a human based jet still needs a strong engine. You are still stuck at the beginning of the problem: a strong jet engine. You can’t magically skip this step. The vast majority of Iran’s drones today are either prop or turboprop. A few are microjet.

And a drone jet needs Sat Coms with strong datalink or else you are relying on ground based stations which are range limited and prone to jamming/ECW.

What happened to the rd33 we were reverse engineering from the early mig29s perhaps now Russia will be more willing to collaborate if we push them hard or perhaps we and Iraq and collab on r and d around this engine. Beats working on one from scratch. We even had old Iraqi mirage f1s and last I heard we can overhaul their engines locally.

 

[Ali_Baba]

There was a rumor I don’t know if you remember a few years ago that Iranian pilots reviewed Chinese planes they were offering and weren’t impressed. Who knows if it’s true or not. I still don’t see China giving us any arms. They haven’t even given Russia any major arms support hence why Russia relies on NK and Iran.

As for SU-35 production I have seen several deliveries this year including SU-57.

Honestly at this point, Iran should try to get joint production of SU-75 checkmate as a future proof purchase. SU-35 is merely a stop gap until an eventual Iranian interceptor (hopefully god willing) or a day when Russia and China help Iran more (SU-57, FC-31)

Bad news for Putin: Su-57 ‘Felon’ 5G stealth fighter production is all but crippled

Putin’s air force still has only a handful of fifth generation planes

www.telegraph.co.uk

Su57 has serious production issues right now.

 

[Immortals]

Bad news for Putin: Su-57 ‘Felon’ 5G stealth fighter production is all but crippled

Putin’s air force still has only a handful of fifth generation planes

www.telegraph.co.uk

Su57 has serious production issues right now.

Western propaganda They just delivered a handful this year.

Each model series is becoming more advanced than the previous.

Russia isn’t going to be producing 40+ a year, it’s not the USA or China. It’s building a strategic fleet. The bulk of its [next gen] fleet will be SU-75 checkmate which will have maiden flight I believe in less than 24 months maybe sooner (2025).

There is also the MiG 5th gen project to also consider. MiG faced some problems and was acquired by Sukhoi to avoid bankruptcy I believe.

 

[Immortals]

What happened to the rd33 we were reverse engineering from the early mig29s perhaps now Russia will be more willing to collaborate if we push them hard or perhaps we and Iraq and collab on r and d around this engine. Beats working on one from scratch. We even had old Iraqi mirage f1s and last I heard we can overhaul their engines locally.

Based on Iranian officials comments over the years, There are a few prototypes being built of different class engines. However, that will take time to finalize a production ready engine that is sufficient in all aspects including time to overhaul (TTO) and maintenance per hour of flight. Just look at India with its Tejas fighter for the challenges a developing nation faces to join the exclusive jet engine club.

Hopefully before 2028 we get more news. Nonetheless, iran in the interim will need a stop gap fighter. It’s not like magically iran will produce 50 fighters a year in a few years. Production will take time to ramp up.

 

[ToddE]

There was a rumor I don’t know if you remember a few years ago that Iranian pilots reviewed Chinese planes they were offering and weren’t impressed. Who knows if it’s true or not. I still don’t see China giving us any arms. They haven’t even given Russia any major arms support hence why Russia relies on NK and Iran.

That was J-10A/B that was reviewed, two sources claimed that one is BT and the other was a report in ISNA. The plane was rejected after test flights.

My take is that J-10 was deemed shorter ranged both to move out of Iranian IADS into enemy territory and also with PL-12/PL-15E it won't be providing IRIAF with the capability to engage low RCS intruders at distance. Mind you the A/B models had chinese PESA with tracking ange in two digits. SU-35S news came just after this so technically speaking SU-35S beat J10 in competition.

The problem with Chinese planes is the engine itself since for whatever reason their aviation industry revolved around Russian turbojets/fans for decades. Out of 25 years of service, J-10 flew on Russian AL-31FN for 22 of them. So if you are buying a Chinese plane, there is a chance a reliable turbofan for it is coming from Russia. And the cycle of dependence, sanctions, BS'ery continues. Not to mention the Chinese avionics, spares, missiles mean you are again controleld by the outsider party, the same machine you paid billions of USD for, can hit the tarmac soon.

As for SU-35 production I have seen several deliveries this year including SU-57.

the production rate is 12 airframes per year and next year's slot is already booked by RuAF. By the time Iranian order will be complete world will be flying unmanned fighters.

This is the reason I always felt Iran should still be pressing Russia for MIG-29 airframes, MLUed, upgraded, newly built or whatever .... 100 such fighters means first layer of IADS is secured. Long range interception will still be a problem because Fulcurum itself is short ranged with weak radars and missiles.

Honestly at this point, Iran should try to get joint production of SU-75 checkmate as a future proof purchase. SU-35 is merely a stop gap until an eventual Iranian interceptor (hopefully god willing) or a day when Russia and China help Iran more (SU-57, FC-31)

Iran has a better chance of receiving Rafales from France than getting SU-57 out of Russia.

 

[Piet]

We dont need small or Light CAP fighters for which we will again be begging to Russia and China for parts and everything else. We wont be able to operate them outside IADS cover so what value are we adding to our current capability?

Numbers for one. For an example consider the already-noted 2 or 3 Kowsar to spoils a MiG-29s' day.

...for Light CAP in form of Kowsar, we have accomplished the "absolute indigenousization", the same for IADS assets and drones.

A more practical and permanent solution will again be exptension of IADS into Iraq to the point that any entering plane can be searched/tracked and fired upon from within Iraq using Iranian HIMADSs/SHORAD layers.

Well, such a development will be good mood, as rightly pointed out countries do not have friends but 'interests', namely their own.

No argument here. See also below.

I always saw this plane as an Advanced Trainer + CAS + fighter of last resort while Iran tried to replace it as a bulk of fleet fighter jet which didn’t make sense.

Kowsar's of the required sophistication, meaningful numbers, other CAP's, CCA's, IADS, and also Iran's comprehensive AD systems.

N/A.

Well IRGC a has historically been anti Air Force and they get the Lion share of the budget and have the leader’s ear. So barring a major shift in thinking or a decision from leader himself to rebuild the force, things are looking grim in near future. But several years ago IRGC announced they were building their own fighter jet. Supposedly the thinking goes they learned lessons from Russian CAS on Syrian war and wanted to create their own CAS fighter.

Then radio silence.

Well, probably for good reason. It wont however bring down the bank if they share a morsel of confidence-building info here and there.

Piet

 

[jauk]

Yes, but the approach is totally different, in modern times of wars and conflicts Iran can't afford to rely upon any foriegn provider for its domestic programs. This is how our missile or air defense, drones muscle got built because of "Absolute Indigenousization".

I mean we can make a build-a-bear fighter jet by begging Russia/China/EU for engines, radars, avionics, missiles, etc to assemble them from imported CKD at home and then suddenly find ourselves not getting those parts because someone put sanctions on supply or we find that entire patents of every component are owned by someone else so Iran is basically paying 20 Million USD a unit to companies abroad for a Light CAP while presenting it as a "Local fighter".

Sometimes I think leadership is right, manned combat aviation is an obsolete doctrine anyways atleast for Iran because of our large terrain and no actual enemy at the gate. This is why 3rd world client states with shit debted economies keep on getting fighters, tanks, and ships from the Western world while strategic armaments are kept far from their reach because the West knows these conventional weapons make no difference in warfare and these poor countries will keep on running western industrial complex with their debted GDPs.

"Absolute Indigenousization" of every strategic weapon is the key to break this cycle, zero dependency on outside world. We were fooled by Russia in MIg-29 and MIG-31 deal in 1990s when payments were already made for 72 + 24 (96) fighters and we got 20 MIG-29 out of them, same story repeated in S-300PMU2/S-400 saga. If we do not learn from past then we deserve to be beaten back to stone age.

Again, excellent!

 

[Deino]

Western propaganda They just delivered a handful this year.

Each model series is becoming more advanced than the previous.

Russia isn’t going to be producing 40+ a year, it’s not the USA or China. It’s building a strategic fleet. The bulk of its [next gen] fleet will be SU-75 checkmate which will have maiden flight I believe in less than 24 months maybe sooner (2025).

There is also the MiG 5th gen project to also consider. MiG faced some problems and was acquired by Sukhoi to avoid bankruptcy I believe.

Really Western propaganda? More likely just incompetence and lack of founding!

Even more it seems you are fallen on Russian propaganda so just let me add a few corrections:

- Each model series is becoming more advanced than the previous. ... not really, since they need to add new systems from mini-batch to mini-batch so that there is barely any commonality, but not since they are better, just due to lack of almost everything

- Russia isn’t going to be producing 40+ a year, it’s not the USA or China. It’s building a strategic fleet. ... that's in fact just a lame excuse since they simply cannot build enough and even more so since the Izd.30 engine is still not ready. Or by that explanation, India is surely also building a "strategic force" and only introduce so few Tejas per year?

- The bulk of its [next gen] fleet will be SU-75 checkmate which will have maiden flight I believe in less than 24 months maybe sooner (2025). ... that's at best propaganda again, so far nothing is decided, the type is far from ready and even if a revised prototype may fly by 2025 it will take a decade or more to get it ready; just look at the Su-57!

- There is also the MiG 5th gen project to also consider. MiG faced some problems and was acquired by Sukhoi to avoid bankruptcy I believe. ... no, it is NOT! There are indeed rumours, MiG would develop a new long-range interceptor to replace the MiG-31 but this one is de facto dead.