Pakistan Missiles - Updates, News & Discussion

[prothought]

Sorry for the thread jump but I thought this was a better thread for the discussion.

My reply to that is two pronged:
1. Contrary to popular belief (especially on the other side of our eastern border), even things that we are "license producing and absorbing" like Harbah, Barq, Shaheen 1, Faaz, etc, we are developing in house on some level. Otherwise we would not have seen entirely local products at all. What we do is that we buy some articles from China and in many cases with the express permission to reverse engineer them. Yes, they could give us everything we need for it but that won't build any capability, only the capacity to produce. For example, we bought AR-1s. Then AWC took the exact same aero-shape, mass distribution because they know that that is a design that works. Then they fitted it with their own rocket motor, guidance computer, and warhead - we have the capability to do these things. This is the kind of TOT that happens between Pakistan and China. I think the same is going on with SD-10/Faaz.
2. Related to 1, if we just copied the YJ12E we would just be a production line and we could only ever produce that exact product and nothing more. That is, because of the reasons I wrote in my earlier post, there would be no capacity to innovate as there is in the cases mentioned in point 1. The cases in point 1 have tech that is well known and well understood, thus enabling that techs absorption. There's a lot of trial and errow with scramjets, preventing their absorbtion unless China helps us builds hypersonic windtunnels and testing facilities. Why would they do that?

While I agree with all your points, I would like to differ on your question that why China would help us build hypersonic wind tunnels and testing facilities. I would rather generalize it in the sense why would China help us in building our capability in various sensitive technological areas.

Every country follows its supreme national interests and so does China (and Pakistan too). The cooperation between any two nations is proportional to the width and depth of their shared national interests. The reality that is well understood by both Chinese and Pakistani governments is that there exists a huge overlap of national interests of China and Pakistan for the foreseeable future.

While we Pakistanis find a solidly supportive global player as an ally in the form of a neighboring country, China has a friendly country located just below its soft belly that once acted as a window for the world into a diplomatically isolated China. You can imagine of the trouble for Chinese if, God forbid, Pakistan is removed and terrorists take over, comes under the control of western puppets, or falls into a perpetual in-fighting and civil war. Pakistan’s sovereignty is as important for Chinese as to us Pakistanis. Once that territorial sovereignty of Pakistan is ensured, as has been achieved with Chinese active support, and Pakistan emerges as a strong regional player, it can facilitate China’s access to Arabian sea through a land corridor. In fact, the CPEC project is a crucial step towards the realization of that goal.

It is quite logical that adversaries and rival global powers will frantically try to disrupt the Chinese strategic growth along that dimension through the use of separatists/terrorist groups. However, the question is for how long? Ultimately the misguided Pakistanis-turned-terrorists will realize the futility of their terrorism. The flow of strategic compulsions cannot be blocked through the acts of terrorism by a tiny fraction of the misguided population.

China has played an overwhelming role in the remarkable growth of Pakistan’s military industrial base, be it military planes, tanks, radars, missiles, and even the nuke technology. Could anyone imagine a few decades ago that Pakistan would be producing fourth plus generation fighter plane in-house? Now Pakistan is poised to get the fifth-generation planes from China, could anyone imagine Pakistan could get such a high-tech plane at all except from China? Can we claim that Pakistan would have acquired tools and technologies used in developing/testing missiles from any western country? If China is allowing our access to such strategic technologies then, I am wondering, what would stop our Chinese friends from sharing the required knowhow/technology for building hypersonic wind tunnels and testing facilities in Pakistan. Many other factors (such as economic feasibility, lack of lower utility of such facilities, even Pakistanis being incapable of absorbing such technology at this stage, the availability of cheaper testing in China, etc.) might very well be at play. As one Chinese friend mentioned in this thread that Pakistan’s current military industrial base is not strong enough to start manufacturing even the parts of a fifth-generation planes. I think we need to look inward much before doing that outward.

 

[Hussain]

In the field of wind tunnel research, the country with the most advanced wind tunnel technology is currently China. China's JF-22 is currently the most advanced wind tunnel facility in human history.
The JF-22 hypervelocity wind tunnel has a total length of 167 meters, a nozzle outlet of 2.5 meters, an experimental chamber with a diameter of 4 meters, and an experimental airflow speed range of 3-10 KM/S (about Mach 30).
If Pakistan wants to do relevant research, it can easily apply for the use of this facility. However, the energy consumption of the JF-22 is staggering and the cost of using it once is very, very high. I am not sure that Pakistani research organizations have enough funds to pay for its use. ------ China can provide the facility free of charge for Pakistan to use, but the cost of its energy consumption will definitely need to be paid by Pakistan.
According to Chinese media, the JF-22's instantaneous power is as high as 15,000MW, which is equivalent to 75% of the power generated by the world's largest hydroelectric power plant, the Three Gorges Hydroelectric Power Station. This is a very huge expense.
There are other clusters of lower speed wind tunnels in China,They are also the largest wind tunnel complex in the world, and they are located in my city. It would be very easy for Pakistan to use them.

https://www.cardc.cn/en/

As I said earlier, if Pakistan really builds its own system in the production and development of such missiles, it can try to start with the development and production of basic components first.

The CL-20 series of high explosives are the explosives used in the combat sections of active Chinese missiles. This falls under the chemical industry.

Military high precision gyroscope. There are a lot of countries that can manufacture this, but very few that can get the precision up to a certain level. It can seriously affect the accuracy of missiles, i.e. CEP. missiles made by a certain country in South Asia are often seriously off-target after launch, as a consequence of the lack of precision of this item. Its technical principle is not complicated, but it requires a very, very high level of machining precision.

Of course, there are many other things to master. I won't expand on that.

I too wish Pakistan could manufacture these things independently, but it would take a lot of effort on Pakistan's part. The modern military industry is like assembling a PC. what is the point of building such a production line if all the parts are imported?

The Sino-SPD connection is very opaque, best to leave it that way.......

 

[Michael]

While I agree with all your points, I would like to differ on your question that why China would help us build hypersonic wind tunnels and testing facilities. I would rather generalize it in the sense why would China help us in building our capability in various sensitive technological areas.

Every country follows its supreme national interests and so does China (and Pakistan too). The cooperation between any two nations is proportional to the width and depth of their shared national interests. The reality that is well understood by both Chinese and Pakistani governments is that there exists a huge overlap of national interests of China and Pakistan for the foreseeable future.

While we Pakistanis find a solidly supportive global player as an ally in the form of a neighboring country, China has a friendly country located just below its soft belly that once acted as a window for the world into a diplomatically isolated China. You can imagine of the trouble for Chinese if, God forbid, Pakistan is removed and terrorists take over, comes under the control of western puppets, or falls into a perpetual in-fighting and civil war. Pakistan’s sovereignty is as important for Chinese as to us Pakistanis. Once that territorial sovereignty of Pakistan is ensured, as has been achieved with Chinese active support, and Pakistan emerges as a strong regional player, it can facilitate China’s access to Arabian sea through a land corridor. In fact, the CPEC project is a crucial step towards the realization of that goal.

It is quite logical that adversaries and rival global powers will frantically try to disrupt the Chinese strategic growth along that dimension through the use of separatists/terrorist groups. However, the question is for how long? Ultimately the misguided Pakistanis-turned-terrorists will realize the futility of their terrorism. The flow of strategic compulsions cannot be blocked through the acts of terrorism by a tiny fraction of the misguided population.

China has played an overwhelming role in the remarkable growth of Pakistan’s military industrial base, be it military planes, tanks, radars, missiles, and even the nuke technology. Could anyone imagine a few decades ago that Pakistan would be producing fourth plus generation fighter plane in-house? Now Pakistan is poised to get the fifth-generation planes from China, could anyone imagine Pakistan could get such a high-tech plane at all except from China? Can we claim that Pakistan would have acquired tools and technologies used in developing/testing missiles from any western country? If China is allowing our access to such strategic technologies then, I am wondering, what would stop our Chinese friends from sharing the required knowhow/technology for building hypersonic wind tunnels and testing facilities in Pakistan. Many other factors (such as economic feasibility, lack of lower utility of such facilities, even Pakistanis being incapable of absorbing such technology at this stage, the availability of cheaper testing in China, etc.) might very well be at play. As one Chinese friend mentioned in this thread that Pakistan’s current military industrial base is not strong enough to start manufacturing even the parts of a fifth-generation planes. I think we need to look inward much before doing that outward.

I really appreciate your pragmatic and rational approach.

In fact, the vast majority of Chinese want to elevate the China-Pakistan relationship to a level similar to the US-Canada relationship. That is, the people of the two countries can come and go freely in and out of each other's countries, almost completely eliminating country boundaries.
But the truth is that this would be very difficult. For many historical reasons, China and Pakistan have excellent relations at the governmental level, and there is a great deal of interaction at the military level. However, there is not much civil interaction between China and Pakistan. We all know that purely political and military relations are not entirely reliable without a sufficient base of people-to-people interactions, and that they can easily be disturbed by the international situation.------That's your concern too.

Most Chinese people learn about Pakistan through Chinese social media. There are many Chinese working or traveling in Pakistan who post relevant videos and photos on Chinese social media. We know that the vast majority of Pakistanis are very friendly to Chinese people and Chinese people receive a lot of special courtesy when traveling in Pakistan. As a Chinese, I am very grateful for this.
However, thinking rationally, I do not agree with this practice. I prefer Pakistan to treat all foreigners equally. Excessive favoritism is also a kind of “discrimination”. Some Pakistani friends may disagree with this view.

Back to the topic.
As far as the military industry is concerned, there is a big gap between China and Pakistan. China is willing to help Pakistan build up its military industry. However, Pakistan must make a rational choice based on its own situation. It is obviously unrealistic to build all the military equipment by itself, and also the most advanced version.
At present, only China has a complete military industrial system in the world. Even the United States, which has the strongest military power, is unable to build many things on its own. The U.S. F-35 fighter jets, many of the parts or key materials, are directly or indirectly imported from China. The United States to build aircraft carriers and other large ships, also need China's Zhenhua Heavy Industry to provide harbor cranes.
So, I have always suggested to my friends in Pakistan to try to build their own military industrial system by starting with building JF-17 completely independently.

The Sino-SPD connection is very opaque, best to leave it that way.......

I'm sorry that I can't understand what you mean because of your use of acronyms. ------The translation software does not recognize it.

 

[prothought]

I'm sorry that I can't understand what you mean because of your use of acronyms. ------The translation software does not recognize it.

The Strategic Plans Division Force (SPD Force) is a paramilitary unit responsible for safeguarding Pakistan's nuclear arsenal, including both tactical and strategic nuclear weapons, as well as the security of nuclear facilities where these weapons and materials are produced and stored.

Strategic Plans Division Force - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Qadeer chaudary]

While I agree with all your points, I would like to differ on your question that why China would help us build hypersonic wind tunnels and testing facilities. I would rather generalize it in the sense why would China help us in building our capability in various sensitive technological areas.

Every country follows its supreme national interests and so does China (and Pakistan too). The cooperation between any two nations is proportional to the width and depth of their shared national interests. The reality that is well understood by both Chinese and Pakistani governments is that there exists a huge overlap of national interests of China and Pakistan for the foreseeable future.

While we Pakistanis find a solidly supportive global player as an ally in the form of a neighboring country, China has a friendly country located just below its soft belly that once acted as a window for the world into a diplomatically isolated China. You can imagine of the trouble for Chinese if, God forbid, Pakistan is removed and terrorists take over, comes under the control of western puppets, or falls into a perpetual in-fighting and civil war. Pakistan’s sovereignty is as important for Chinese as to us Pakistanis. Once that territorial sovereignty of Pakistan is ensured, as has been achieved with Chinese active support, and Pakistan emerges as a strong regional player, it can facilitate China’s access to Arabian sea through a land corridor. In fact, the CPEC project is a crucial step towards the realization of that goal.

It is quite logical that adversaries and rival global powers will frantically try to disrupt the Chinese strategic growth along that dimension through the use of separatists/terrorist groups. However, the question is for how long? Ultimately the misguided Pakistanis-turned-terrorists will realize the futility of their terrorism. The flow of strategic compulsions cannot be blocked through the acts of terrorism by a tiny fraction of the misguided population.

China has played an overwhelming role in the remarkable growth of Pakistan’s military industrial base, be it military planes, tanks, radars, missiles, and even the nuke technology. Could anyone imagine a few decades ago that Pakistan would be producing fourth plus generation fighter plane in-house? Now Pakistan is poised to get the fifth-generation planes from China, could anyone imagine Pakistan could get such a high-tech plane at all except from China? Can we claim that Pakistan would have acquired tools and technologies used in developing/testing missiles from any western country? If China is allowing our access to such strategic technologies then, I am wondering, what would stop our Chinese friends from sharing the required knowhow/technology for building hypersonic wind tunnels and testing facilities in Pakistan. Many other factors (such as economic feasibility, lack of lower utility of such facilities, even Pakistanis being incapable of absorbing such technology at this stage, the availability of cheaper testing in China, etc.) might very well be at play. As one Chinese friend mentioned in this thread that Pakistan’s current military industrial base is not strong enough to start manufacturing even the parts of a fifth-generation planes. I think we need to look inward much before doing that outward.

It's been 76 years
Maybe we can stop relying of retired fa pass policy makers and thier fantasy that Pakistan is irreplaceable for china
And yes the region was replaced with terrorist against china when musharaf sold the country to USA
USA installed isis terrorist camps in Afghanistan then into china for which Uyghur Muslim paid heavy price
And yes Pakistan has been replaced by china when we started becoming a full vessel state of USA recently
The Chinese ambassador has straight forward told cpec cannot go on like this and will only start after they get security and want pla to come here for security
Ok the hand they have started railway to Afghanistan and building road to Iran for thier oil and port use, while Balochistan is burning but related institute is busy in politics

 

[Qadeer chaudary]

While I agree with all your points, I would like to differ on your question that why China would help us build hypersonic wind tunnels and testing facilities. I would rather generalize it in the sense why would China help us in building our capability in various sensitive technological areas.

Every country follows its supreme national interests and so does China (and Pakistan too). The cooperation between any two nations is proportional to the width and depth of their shared national interests. The reality that is well understood by both Chinese and Pakistani governments is that there exists a huge overlap of national interests of China and Pakistan for the foreseeable future.

While we Pakistanis find a solidly supportive global player as an ally in the form of a neighboring country, China has a friendly country located just below its soft belly that once acted as a window for the world into a diplomatically isolated China. You can imagine of the trouble for Chinese if, God forbid, Pakistan is removed and terrorists take over, comes under the control of western puppets, or falls into a perpetual in-fighting and civil war. Pakistan’s sovereignty is as important for Chinese as to us Pakistanis. Once that territorial sovereignty of Pakistan is ensured, as has been achieved with Chinese active support, and Pakistan emerges as a strong regional player, it can facilitate China’s access to Arabian sea through a land corridor. In fact, the CPEC project is a crucial step towards the realization of that goal.

It is quite logical that adversaries and rival global powers will frantically try to disrupt the Chinese strategic growth along that dimension through the use of separatists/terrorist groups. However, the question is for how long? Ultimately the misguided Pakistanis-turned-terrorists will realize the futility of their terrorism. The flow of strategic compulsions cannot be blocked through the acts of terrorism by a tiny fraction of the misguided population.

China has played an overwhelming role in the remarkable growth of Pakistan’s military industrial base, be it military planes, tanks, radars, missiles, and even the nuke technology. Could anyone imagine a few decades ago that Pakistan would be producing fourth plus generation fighter plane in-house? Now Pakistan is poised to get the fifth-generation planes from China, could anyone imagine Pakistan could get such a high-tech plane at all except from China? Can we claim that Pakistan would have acquired tools and technologies used in developing/testing missiles from any western country? If China is allowing our access to such strategic technologies then, I am wondering, what would stop our Chinese friends from sharing the required knowhow/technology for building hypersonic wind tunnels and testing facilities in Pakistan. Many other factors (such as economic feasibility, lack of lower utility of such facilities, even Pakistanis being incapable of absorbing such technology at this stage, the availability of cheaper testing in China, etc.) might very well be at play. As one Chinese friend mentioned in this thread that Pakistan’s current military industrial base is not strong enough to start manufacturing even the parts of a fifth-generation planes. I think we need to look inward much before doing that outward.

@faroqbhai

While I agree with all your points, I would like to differ on your question that why China would help us build hypersonic wind tunnels and testing facilities. I would rather generalize it in the sense why would China help us in building our capability in various sensitive technological areas.

Every country follows its supreme national interests and so does China (and Pakistan too). The cooperation between any two nations is proportional to the width and depth of their shared national interests. The reality that is well understood by both Chinese and Pakistani governments is that there exists a huge overlap of national interests of China and Pakistan for the foreseeable future.

While we Pakistanis find a solidly supportive global player as an ally in the form of a neighboring country, China has a friendly country located just below its soft belly that once acted as a window for the world into a diplomatically isolated China. You can imagine of the trouble for Chinese if, God forbid, Pakistan is removed and terrorists take over, comes under the control of western puppets, or falls into a perpetual in-fighting and civil war. Pakistan’s sovereignty is as important for Chinese as to us Pakistanis. Once that territorial sovereignty of Pakistan is ensured, as has been achieved with Chinese active support, and Pakistan emerges as a strong regional player, it can facilitate China’s access to Arabian sea through a land corridor. In fact, the CPEC project is a crucial step towards the realization of that goal.

It is quite logical that adversaries and rival global powers will frantically try to disrupt the Chinese strategic growth along that dimension through the use of separatists/terrorist groups. However, the question is for how long? Ultimately the misguided Pakistanis-turned-terrorists will realize the futility of their terrorism. The flow of strategic compulsions cannot be blocked through the acts of terrorism by a tiny fraction of the misguided population.

China has played an overwhelming role in the remarkable growth of Pakistan’s military industrial base, be it military planes, tanks, radars, missiles, and even the nuke technology. Could anyone imagine a few decades ago that Pakistan would be producing fourth plus generation fighter plane in-house? Now Pakistan is poised to get the fifth-generation planes from China, could anyone imagine Pakistan could get such a high-tech plane at all except from China? Can we claim that Pakistan would have acquired tools and technologies used in developing/testing missiles from any western country? If China is allowing our access to such strategic technologies then, I am wondering, what would stop our Chinese friends from sharing the required knowhow/technology for building hypersonic wind tunnels and testing facilities in Pakistan. Many other factors (such as economic feasibility, lack of lower utility of such facilities, even Pakistanis being incapable of absorbing such technology at this stage, the availability of cheaper testing in China, etc.) might very well be at play. As one Chinese friend mentioned in this thread that Pakistan’s current military industrial base is not strong enough to start manufacturing even the parts of a fifth-generation planes. I think we need to look inward much before doing that outward.

@farooqbhai @Bentley777 @Dalit
As for yj12e

India is only producing oniks or brahmos under licence

Only some software hardware changes have been made with Russian help

Ramjet is still Russian guidance too will be Russian like they use Russian electronic in Astra missiles as well

As for thier subsonic missiles it have been failing many tike even with foreign policy engine

Now they have been testing for few years with own engine but partial success and it is still years away from active service in good numbers.
India had planned 1000 total brahmos production with now maximum 6 to 7 hundred procured for three service
70 percent are just the normal 300km range missiles
So yes India is also not successful in a fully indigenous air breathing missiles production

And secondly people here needs to join sino defense forum, or unbiased analyst ok Twitter that analyze pla, USA and Indian defence systems

Supersonic missile of j12e category are not very important for china, they consider it second or third line missiles at best and it is as important to them as original 400 km Babur is to us
Overall effectiveness of such missiles is also being grossly overestimated here
USA has shot down supersonic target missiles that were more maneuverable than brahmos with just ESSM block 2 for decades
Even Chinese have been shooting down such missiles in live fire exercises for years with only HQ 16 and type 54a original not radars and HQ upgraded tugrills
Why do you think army PAF and PN have acquired so many HQ 16 batteries
In the attached link
See USA navy easily shooting down target with far better speed and maneuver than brahmos
And then in next replies see pla around 10 years ago shooting same category of target drone with HQ 16 a

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[Qadeer chaudary]

@faroqbhai

@farooqbhai @Bentley777 @Dalit
As for yj12e

India is only producing oniks or brahmos under licence

Only some software hardware changes have been made with Russian help

Ramjet is still Russian guidance too will be Russian like they use Russian electronic in Astra missiles as well

As for thier subsonic missiles it have been failing many tike even with foreign policy engine

Now they have been testing for few years with own engine but partial success and it is still years away from active service in good numbers.
India had planned 1000 total brahmos production with now maximum 6 to 7 hundred procured for three service
70 percent are just the normal 300km range missiles
So yes India is also not successful in a fully indigenous air breathing missiles production

And secondly people here needs to join sino defense forum, or unbiased analyst ok Twitter that analyze pla, USA and Indian defence systems

Supersonic missile of j12e category are not very important for china, they consider it second or third line missiles at best and it is as important to them as original 400 km Babur is to us
Overall effectiveness of such missiles is also being grossly overestimated here
USA has shot down supersonic target missiles that were more maneuverable than brahmos with just ESSM block 2 for decades
Even Chinese have been shooting down such missiles in live fire exercises for years with only HQ 16 and type 54a original not radars and HQ upgraded tugrills
Why do you think army PAF and PN have acquired so many HQ 16 batteries
In the attached link
See USA navy easily shooting down target with far better speed and maneuver than brahmos
And then in next replies see pla around 10 years ago shooting same category of target drone with HQ 16 a

@farooqbhai @Dalit
Now let's talk about supersonic in today's age

India touts brahmos as best with now 800km tested but only 500 km active service range and 3 Mach speed
China has showcased df 100 that was in service in 2018 or even earlier
With range of 4000 km and speed of mach 4
But pla has preferred df21d and df26d over this and only produced very low numbers if this missiles and discontinued it's production in favour of said missiles and then df17 and df 27 HGV medium and icbm range missiles came into production

Need I remind you USA DOD report puts price of one df17 hgv at 2 million USD per missiles

And where do you think north Korean and Iranian Fatah hgv types missile tech came from? China is only country with two such missiles generations in service shown publicly and third generation may also be in service by now

So Pakistan should focus on df21 like capabilities with Fatah 4 underdevelopmemt and Fatah 5 (just suggested name) with powered second stage warhead sperated and going on hypersonic speed

Along with secretly asking china for hgv tech and using Fatah 4 or Fatah 5 first stage as first stage just like df17 borrowed it's from df21

Even with no gps or advanced guidance

Only with liquid fuel

Iranian ballistic cheap and few years old missiles that had a powered second stage warhead that can fly over patriot limit and under arrow 2 and 3 limit defeated the most layered and dense aur defense network in world

Just need to work on missiles guidance more satellite plus df 21 type missiles plus working jointly on getting hgv tech we can make one for 5 to 7 million easily that is brahmos prize

China have studied USA missiles defence tech and there focus is highly stealth AFK 98 or LRASM type subsonic plus hypersonic ballistic or hgv missiles

And people saying Pakistan have been left behind should look at Fatah 2 test and press release
It is hypersonic missiles with menvueravble separating second stage warhead, powered or not and level of menvueravbilty is what need to be improved

Even in Russia Ukrainian war simple tomahawk type missiles are failing

Short range ATCAMS, skinder hypersonic speed
And
Storm shadow type stealth subsonic weapons are more usefull

Pakistan have taimor, raad, and now rasoob for such purpose

Go to link attached for seeing Chinese doctrine of preference of stealth subsonic and hypersonic ballistic or hgv missiles over supersonic missiles

Chinese Hypersonic Developments (HGVs/HCMs)

it's kind of nuts to me they stopped production of a mach 4 cruise missile with 4000 km range. DF-26 is clearly more capable if they made this decision To be honest, a mach 4 cruise missile with that kind of range will be flying at a rather high altitude until the final terminal phase. As an...

www.sinodefenceforum.com

 

[Qadeer chaudary]

@farooqbhai @Dalit
Now let's talk about supersonic in today's age

India touts brahmos as best with now 800km tested but only 500 km active service range and 3 Mach speed
China has showcased df 100 that was in service in 2018 or even earlier
With range of 4000 km and speed of mach 4
But pla has preferred df21d and df26d over this and only produced very low numbers if this missiles and discontinued it's production in favour of said missiles and then df17 and df 27 HGV medium and icbm range missiles came into production

Need I remind you USA DOD report puts price of one df17 hgv at 2 million USD per missiles

And where do you think north Korean and Iranian Fatah hgv types missile tech came from? China is only country with two such missiles generations in service shown publicly and third generation may also be in service by now

So Pakistan should focus on df21 like capabilities with Fatah 4 underdevelopmemt and Fatah 5 (just suggested name) with powered second stage warhead sperated and going on hypersonic speed

Along with secretly asking china for hgv tech and using Fatah 4 or Fatah 5 first stage as first stage just like df17 borrowed it's from df21

Even with no gps or advanced guidance

Only with liquid fuel

Iranian ballistic cheap and few years old missiles that had a powered second stage warhead that can fly over patriot limit and under arrow 2 and 3 limit defeated the most layered and dense aur defense network in world

Just need to work on missiles guidance more satellite plus df 21 type missiles plus working jointly on getting hgv tech we can make one for 5 to 7 million easily that is brahmos prize

China have studied USA missiles defence tech and there focus is highly stealth AFK 98 or LRASM type subsonic plus hypersonic ballistic or hgv missiles

And people saying Pakistan have been left behind should look at Fatah 2 test and press release
It is hypersonic missiles with menvueravble separating second stage warhead, powered or not and level of menvueravbilty is what need to be improved

Even in Russia Ukrainian war simple tomahawk type missiles are failing

Short range ATCAMS, skinder hypersonic speed
And
Storm shadow type stealth subsonic weapons are more usefull

Pakistan have taimor, raad, and now rasoob for such purpose

Go to link attached for seeing Chinese doctrine of preference of stealth subsonic and hypersonic ballistic or hgv missiles over supersonic missiles

Chinese Hypersonic Developments (HGVs/HCMs)

it's kind of nuts to me they stopped production of a mach 4 cruise missile with 4000 km range. DF-26 is clearly more capable if they made this decision To be honest, a mach 4 cruise missile with that kind of range will be flying at a rather high altitude until the final terminal phase. As an...

www.sinodefenceforum.com

@farooqbhai @Dalit @Bentley777
Now for Pakistani indigenous efforts
Raad, taimur, rasoob and harbah
Each are totally indigenous missiles now with ranges from 350 of rasoob to 950 for harbah

Pakistan needs to up the production numbers of these

India still has year to go to make similar level of indigenous missiles in service in thier land based subsonic cruise missiles

And brahmos 2 hypersonic will never happen

India material science is way behind china
They don't have any operational ramjet

There tested scramjet lasted 20 secs in test

While Chinese tested scramjet for 600 secs and still not making a missiles out of it maybe due to choice of very cheaper hgv with longer ranges

 

[Qadeer chaudary]

@farooqbhai @Dalit @Bentley777
Now for Pakistani indigenous efforts
Raad, taimur, rasoob and harbah
Each are totally indigenous missiles now with ranges from 350 of rasoob to 950 for harbah

Pakistan needs to up the production numbers of these

India still has year to go to make similar level of indigenous missiles in service in thier land based subsonic cruise missiles

And brahmos 2 hypersonic will never happen

India material science is way behind china
They don't have any operational ramjet

There tested scramjet lasted 20 secs in test

While Chinese tested scramjet for 600 secs and still not making a missiles out of it maybe due to choice of very cheaper hgv with longer ranges

@farooqbhai
Now coming back to yj12e for Pakistan

Yes Pakistan do have significance for supersonic missiles against India atleast

All the Indian naval assets except niglri, kolkota, vishakapatnam are helpless against supersonic with thier shtill, Barak 1 or even no defence for very large Jinnah class sized corvettes

How do we get such missiles

Yeah we can mess it up like fgfa program by aiming for moon reaching nothing

Because we don't have any kind of advanced material science industry here we can't make ramjet engine and heat protection required for such fast missiles that stay in atmosphere

What is the way forward?

Yj12 is suited for china because they have tria service large carriers for such heavy missiles
There destroyers, bombers can carry such heavy missiles

Pakistan should go for HD 1 a that is even compatible with JF 17 and will be with J10c too

We should get tot to manufacture and with Chinese help within a year range can be easily increased to 500km and used by airforce, navy, army as well
We can further work to completely localize it's all components including ramjet and increase range along the way to 800km easily in 2030 and yes china will have no problem because supersonic is not thier strategic level weapon anymore for years

Two hd 1 a can be carried by J10c j35 maybe in external hard point and jf 17
One may be carried easily anka 3 or kizelima if PAF go for it

This is not just best rout
This is the only route or we can just have graphics and picture after years of money and time wasted on R&D like azm project

 

[SiliconBit (silicon0000)]

In the field of wind tunnel research, the country with the most advanced wind tunnel technology is currently China. China's JF-22 is currently the most advanced wind tunnel facility in human history.
The JF-22 hypervelocity wind tunnel has a total length of 167 meters, a nozzle outlet of 2.5 meters, an experimental chamber with a diameter of 4 meters, and an experimental airflow speed range of 3-10 KM/S (about Mach 30).
If Pakistan wants to do relevant research, it can easily apply for the use of this facility. However, the energy consumption of the JF-22 is staggering and the cost of using it once is very, very high. I am not sure that Pakistani research organizations have enough funds to pay for its use. ------ China can provide the facility free of charge for Pakistan to use, but the cost of its energy consumption will definitely need to be paid by Pakistan.
According to Chinese media, the JF-22's instantaneous power is as high as 15,000MW, which is equivalent to 75% of the power generated by the world's largest hydroelectric power plant, the Three Gorges Hydroelectric Power Station. This is a very huge expense.
There are other clusters of lower speed wind tunnels in China,They are also the largest wind tunnel complex in the world, and they are located in my city. It would be very easy for Pakistan to use them.

https://www.cardc.cn/en/

As I said earlier, if Pakistan really builds its own system in the production and development of such missiles, it can try to start with the development and production of basic components first.

The CL-20 series of high explosives are the explosives used in the combat sections of active Chinese missiles. This falls under the chemical industry.

Military high precision gyroscope. There are a lot of countries that can manufacture this, but very few that can get the precision up to a certain level. It can seriously affect the accuracy of missiles, i.e. CEP. missiles made by a certain country in South Asia are often seriously off-target after launch, as a consequence of the lack of precision of this item. Its technical principle is not complicated, but it requires a very, very high level of machining precision.

Of course, there are many other things to master. I won't expand on that.

I too wish Pakistan could manufacture these things independently, but it would take a lot of effort on Pakistan's part. The modern military industry is like assembling a PC. what is the point of building such a production line if all the parts are imported?

Dear Is this the same facility that uses blasts for hypersonic in wind tunnel instead of traditional methods? I recall reading an article about this, which explained the concept in a clear and accessible way. Unfortunately, I can't find it now.

I really appreciate your pragmatic and rational approach.

In fact, the vast majority of Chinese want to elevate the China-Pakistan relationship to a level similar to the US-Canada relationship. That is, the people of the two countries can come and go freely in and out of each other's countries, almost completely eliminating country boundaries.
But the truth is that this would be very difficult. For many historical reasons, China and Pakistan have excellent relations at the governmental level, and there is a great deal of interaction at the military level. However, there is not much civil interaction between China and Pakistan. We all know that purely political and military relations are not entirely reliable without a sufficient base of people-to-people interactions, and that they can easily be disturbed by the international situation.------That's your concern too.

Most Chinese people learn about Pakistan through Chinese social media. There are many Chinese working or traveling in Pakistan who post relevant videos and photos on Chinese social media. We know that the vast majority of Pakistanis are very friendly to Chinese people and Chinese people receive a lot of special courtesy when traveling in Pakistan. As a Chinese, I am very grateful for this.
However, thinking rationally, I do not agree with this practice. I prefer Pakistan to treat all foreigners equally. Excessive favoritism is also a kind of “discrimination”. Some Pakistani friends may disagree with this view.

Back to the topic.
As far as the military industry is concerned, there is a big gap between China and Pakistan. China is willing to help Pakistan build up its military industry. However, Pakistan must make a rational choice based on its own situation. It is obviously unrealistic to build all the military equipment by itself, and also the most advanced version.
At present, only China has a complete military industrial system in the world. Even the United States, which has the strongest military power, is unable to build many things on its own. The U.S. F-35 fighter jets, many of the parts or key materials, are directly or indirectly imported from China. The United States to build aircraft carriers and other large ships, also need China's Zhenhua Heavy Industry to provide harbor cranes.
So, I have always suggested to my friends in Pakistan to try to build their own military industrial system by starting with building JF-17 completely independently.


I'm sorry that I can't understand what you mean because of your use of acronyms. ------The translation software does not recognize it.

Yes, there is less person-to-person interaction, but trust me, the hearts of the people of Pakistan are much closer to China than the political and military alliance between the two countries.

 

[Michael]

Dear Is this the same facility that uses blasts for hypersonic in wind tunnel instead of traditional methods? I recall reading an article about this, which explained the concept in a clear and accessible way. Unfortunately, I can't find it now.

The full Chinese name of JF-22 is: “爆轰驱动超高速高焓激波风洞”.
Unfortunately, I have not found its official English name. Due to the large number of Chinese abbreviations used in this Chinese name, translation software cannot accurately translate it. In the official document describing it, there is the phrase: “通过正向爆轰驱动器为基本功能，提供平稳的驱动气流.”------Please translate for yourself.
It does by providing precise control of the airflow created by the explosion. But a more detailed technical analysis is a country secret, and we can't know about it.

Official Photos about JF-22

 

[Cool_Soldier]

Yes, we do have supersonic cruise missile used by navy but these are Chinese origin. Here, we have not demonstrated yet either supersonic or Hypersonic capability but the rumors by unofficial people.

 

[SiliconBit (silicon0000)]

The full Chinese name of JF-22 is: “爆轰驱动超高速高焓激波风洞”.
Unfortunately, I have not found its official English name. Due to the large number of Chinese abbreviations used in this Chinese name, translation software cannot accurately translate it. In the official document describing it, there is the phrase: “通过正向爆轰驱动器为基本功能，提供平稳的驱动气流.”------Please translate for yourself.
It does by providing precise control of the airflow created by the explosion. But a more detailed technical analysis is a country secret, and we can't know about it.

Official Photos about JF-22
View attachment 82923

Chinese : 爆轰驱动超高速高焓激波风洞
ENGLISH : Detonation-driven ultra-high-speed high-enthalpy shock wave wind tunnel


Chinese : 通过正向爆轰驱动器为基本功能，提供平稳的驱动气流.
ENGLISH : The basic function is to provide a smooth driving airflow through a forward detonation drive.


This is much clearer now. Thank you for your information.

 

[Bentley777]

Koi spd ko jaga do

 

[sherlockholmes]

India tested 3500 km range slbm.
4th test in this month