HAL LCA Tejas: Updates, News & Discussions

[Raj-Hindustani]

There are a lots of miscalculation from your AF and govt, switching from here to there, Rafael, only 36 instead of going for 100+, engine program delayed/put on shelf, went from Russian equipments but not going all out on western one either.

Now, you have to queued for more Rafael and your country doesn't want to go back to Russia as people already tasted "superior western jets"...a total stuck.

Agreed, also buying only 36 Rafale was another blunder. We needed atleast to buy around 100 aircrafts, now presently, we are nowhere.

Only best option is if can get F35 from USA, but it is unlikely, so another option is to get F21 or F-15EX

 

[iblini]

Agreed, also buying only 36 Rafale was another blunder. We needed atleast to buy around 100 aircrafts, now presently, we are nowhere.

Only best option is if can get F35 from USA, but it is unlikely, so another option is to get F21 or F-15EX

They are spolied with all the options.

 

[Deino]

Many Things and projects and problems will get Streamlined and move towards Solutions
And improvements and Betterment in next 2 years

And thereafter there will be lot of OPTIMISM in the Air

The current feelings of being Stuck is just a temporary phenomenon

We have a Bright future

It is just a matter of Time

We have Time on our side

Honestly, I admire your enthusiasm, your love and your efforts and yes, I think India too will have a bright future, but ONLY if it takes some tough decisions, is ready to step out of its comfort zone, work hard, have a lot of patience and invest even more money.

As long as you stick to this mantra "We are great", "we trade with everyone and can therefore choose whatever we want", nothing will change within the bloated bureaucracy. HAL and DRDO will always delay every decision of the military with the argument that "we will do it ourselves", "we will do it better" and as long as - as said in the video I posted above - there are no consequences if it only brings delays and increased costs again, it will continue to go in circles.

And as long as you think that cheering "Jai-Hind" and "Modi is the best" will cover up all the deficits, it will actually remain that way.

But the feeling alone "I'm great" is just a dream and not a fact.

So once again: India has to decide what it wants ...
- to purchase either extremely expensive systems from the West that work, to continue to be a vassal of Russia or to continue to walk the tightrope between West and East with each side ripping you off.
- Real investments in independence and staying power, because crude promises like "we will get full ToT and then within two years everything will be fine!" are a fallacy.
- the bureaucracy must be drastically reformed, in which everyone holds out their hand, delays, collects money, and maneuvers around in order not to make the wrong decision or to not endanger dependencies and in the end in which wrong decisions remain without consequences.
- and the most important point: realism! This constant comparison "we are the greatest", "36 Rafales are enough for 300 J-20s" and "in two years everything will be fine" must be replaced by a tough, emotionless consideration of the facts and then decisions must be made on that basis.

... as long as that does not change, in 20 years India will still be promoting a variant of the the Tejas then maybe known as Mk.3B as equal or even superior to everything in the neighbourhood and the stupid masses will continue to cheer.

 

[Oscar]

Agreed, also buying only 36 Rafale was another blunder. We needed atleast to buy around 100 aircrafts, now presently, we are nowhere.

Only best option is if can get F35 from USA, but it is unlikely, so another option is to get F21 or F-15EX

The miscalculations or rather spoiled glee did not begin here - it began with the MMRCA flyoffs(even the French had a decent deal offered)and the utter lack of indecision and fiefdoms shown by MoD, IAF and other political leaders being influenced by outside contacts. Finances were readily available and even the bureaucracy could be made to comply but both IAF and political leaders screwed it up.

Then you had another opportunity during the first Modi administration where the jingoism was riding high on Hindutva - missed again this time due to bureaucracy that was hell bent on putting roadblocks for semi-political purposes and also by HAL and other local entities which had nothing to do (not even in the future) with aircraft production making tall claims and promises (along with donations) to Modi’s team and base - lost again.

Then this missed Rafale saga began but to be fair the French were much more eager to fleece India now - however, the unit price for 100 was less than 36 and a better long term deal but the “baniya” balked and you are where you are now.

 

[Yasser76]

The miscalculations or rather spoiled glee did not begin here - it began with the MMRCA flyoffs(even the French had a decent deal offered)and the utter lack of indecision and fiefdoms shown by MoD, IAF and other political leaders being influenced by outside contacts. Finances were readily available and even the bureaucracy could be made to comply but both IAF and political leaders screwed it up.

Then you had another opportunity during the first Modi administration where the jingoism was riding high on Hindutva - missed again this time due to bureaucracy that was hell bent on putting roadblocks for semi-political purposes and also by HAL and other local entities which had nothing to do (not even in the future) with aircraft production making tall claims and promises (along with donations) to Modi’s team and base - lost again.

Then this missed Rafale saga began but to be fair the French were much more eager to fleece India now - however, the unit price for 100 was less than 36 and a better long term deal but the “baniya” balked and you are where you are now.

Not just this, but as you allude to, inter service rivalry really hurts the Indian Armed Forces. Do not get me wrong, almost every country is plagued by it to a certain degree, but you have some really bizarre procurment decisions

22 Apaches to IAF then 6 to IA (Both fleets based seperately_
30 Predator drones divided almost equally between IA, IAF and IN
Rafales - 36 bought by IAF, then 10 years later 26 being bought seperately by IN
HAL Rudra - 16 to IAF and 75 to IA

These sort of land grabs by the services dont help in streamlining procurement and leads to massive duplication of cost and effort.

As mentioned many armed forces suffer from it, but in major areas they have got their sh*t together.

in the UK the RAF has total authrority over MPAs and attack choppers for example, Army and Navy do not duplicate

in Pakistan, aprt from air base SAR, PAF pretty much stay out of the helicopter game altogether. So basically almost all non Naval chopper training and procurement left to the army

 

[Circadian Rhythm]

Not just this, but as you allude to, inter service rivalry really hurts the Indian Armed Forces. Do not get me wrong, almost every country is plagued by it to a certain degree, but you have some really bizarre procurment decisions

22 Apaches to IAF then 6 to IA (Both fleets based seperately_
30 Predator drones divided almost equally between IA, IAF and IN
Rafales - 36 bought by IAF, then 10 years later 26 being bought seperately by IN
HAL Rudra - 16 to IAF and 75 to IA

These sort of land grabs by the services dont help in streamlining procurement and leads to massive duplication of cost and effort.

As mentioned many armed forces suffer from it, but in major areas they have got their sh*t together.

in the UK the RAF has total authrority over MPAs and attack choppers for example, Army and Navy do not duplicate

in Pakistan, aprt from air base SAR, PAF pretty much stay out of the helicopter game altogether. So basically almost all non Naval chopper training and procurement left to the army

The Solution to this Piecemeal approach is The Creation of Theatre Command

It will happen this year

In defence ‘Year of Reforms’, theatre commands by consensus closer than ever to reality

The new year began with the three military chiefs, in a first, picking aide-de-camps from sister services—a fresh signal of readiness for consensus-driven integration

www.indiatoday.in

 

[Joe Shearer]

the bureaucracy must be drastically reformed, in which everyone holds out their hand, delays, collects money, and maneuvers around in order not to make the wrong decision or to not endanger dependencies and in the end in which wrong decisions remain without consequences.

It isn't like that. What you describe happens, when it happens, and that is not always, as a collusion between the pols and the bureaucrats.

That is not the problem, much though to the outside eye it seems to be.

The problem is with the safeguarding processes (what I have italicised above).

I can explain if you wish, but you need to have an open mind, and not jump to Internet-ready conclusions. I'm not being rude, just saying that outsiders, and you are one, as much as these Sanghis, don't know what goes on inside our own (ha, ha) military industrial complex.

 

[Joe Shearer]

It will happen

Of course.
Jam yesterday, and jam tomorrow, never, ever jam today.

The fact is that the f***ing politicians have no clue what to do, so they have built models that benefit their social and political purposes, and have tried to cloak those models with the genuine expressions by the military of their real needs.

 

[Circadian Rhythm]

Of course.
Jam yesterday, and jam tomorrow, never, ever jam today.

The fact is that the f***ing politicians have no clue what to do, so they have built models that benefit their social and political purposes, and have tried to cloak those models with the genuine expressions by the military of their real needs.

Except for Aero Engines , DRDO has done Great work in All other fields and Areas

In Aero engines too , with Foreign collaboration we will get success

The MK 1A is also close to being fully operational

I don't understand how "Bitterness " is going to help

We have to face Reality , Be Positive and Optimistic and Carry on with it

 

[Deino]

It isn't like that. What you describe happens, when it happens, and that is not always, as a collusion between the pols and the bureaucrats.

That is not the problem, much though to the outside eye it seems to be.

The problem is with the safeguarding processes (what I have italicised above).

I can explain if you wish, but you need to have an open mind, and not jump to Internet-ready conclusions. I'm not being rude, just saying that outsiders, and you are one, as much as these Sanghis, don't know what goes on inside our own (ha, ha) military industrial complex.

Thanks a lot my friend and I promise I will listen and try my best to understand ... later!

Except for Aero Engines , DRDO has done Great work in All other fields and Areas

In Aero engines too , with Foreign collaboration we will get success

The MK 1A is also close to being fully operational

I don't understand how "Bitterness " is going to help

We have to face Reality , Be Positive and Optimistic and Carry on with it

I'm not sure what "in All other fields and Areas" has been archived to be happy, relaxed or even proud? The Tejas program at all and how repeatedly, constantly and still any delays are blamed to others onyl NOT to HAL / DRDO or any Indian responsibility is just embarrassing.

 

[Michael]

It isn't like that. What you describe happens, when it happens, and that is not always, as a collusion between the pols and the bureaucrats.
That is not the problem, much though to the outside eye it seems to be.
The problem is with the safeguarding processes (what I have italicised above).

Thanks a lot my friend and I promise I will listen and try my best to understand ... later!

I am very much looking forward to the in-depth discussion that the two of you can have on this issue.

 

[Circadian Rhythm]

Thanks a lot my friend and I promise I will listen and try my best to understand ... later!




I'm not sure what "in All other fields and Areas" has been archived to be happy, relaxed or even proud? The Tejas program at all and how repeatedly, constantly and still any delays are blamed to others onyl NOT to HAL / DRDO or any Indian responsibility is just embarrassing.

I am an Optimistic person

We have come a Very long way

I have closely followed India's Technological Journey and Defence Journey of last 40 years from the SLV 3 and IGMDP programmes of Early 80s

What got me fascinated with Defence sector was the Screaming News Headlines of PAF getting F 16s in 1981

If we could reach where we are with all Problems and Difficulties
Then there is No Reason why we cannot move much further ahead

 

[SiliconBit (silicon0000)]

There is a basic fundamental difference if you compared.

China is on rising side today with much better economy, military budgets - just 20 years ago they also only used to rely on others and manufacturing the aircrafts....

Pakistan has nothing to do this technology developments, they are just enjoying the good relationship with china and turkey, they are mostly giving them dollars and getting the products - so definitely they will be beneficial because china is doing well.

Other hands, india was having good relationship with Russia, and Russia was the country if she does good in such fields, india would be beneficial and gets most of the goodies without much challenges but Russia lacks the money and resources now to work on latest technologies.

India made a few blunders in the past for making decisions, but not much have options because most western countries are money minded, they provide the weapons based on the their own interests and dollars.

Still india has more than fighters presently to protect our sky, but definitely we need new fighter planes within this decade....

There is a basic fundamental difference if you compared.

China is on rising side today with much better economy, military budgets - just 20 years ago they also only used to rely on others and manufacturing the aircrafts....

Pakistan has nothing to do this technology developments, they are just enjoying the good relationship with china and turkey, they are mostly giving them dollars and getting the products - so definitely they will be beneficial because china is doing well.

Other hands, india was having good relationship with Russia, and Russia was the country if she does good in such fields, india would be beneficial and gets most of the goodies without much challenges but Russia lacks the money and resources now to work on latest technologies.

India made a few blunders in the past for making decisions, but not much have options because most western countries are money minded, they provide the weapons based on the their own interests and dollars.

Still india has more than fighters presently to protect our sky, but definitely we need new fighter planes within this decade....

Well Instead of dwelling on the current challenges facing the Indian Air Force (IAF), let's consider a different approach.

While this approach may necessitate some compromise on the 'Make in India' concept and require to take a stand (which India had taken till now) on Indian sovereign decisions, it might be crucial to adapt to current realities, as it may already be too late. China is now in a different league, and Pakistan, with definite access to advanced Chinese technology (atleast 2nd line tech), may soon surpass India if the situation doesn't improve.

Given India's current position, why not leverage Russian support (as China did in the past), especially if the US is proving unreliable? (Those who doubt can keep smoking what they are smoking right now.)

India could capitalize on Russia's current financial constraints. By investing in Russia, which desperately needs funds, India could negotiate favorable terms for advanced military technology, potentially including a deal for a 5th-generation fighter similar to the SU-30 agreement, but with local production line with enhanced terms and greater Indian control over improvement, modifications and replacements. This strategy could provide India with a significant 5th-generation capability by 2030.

Simultaneously, By investing some good amount India sould partner in the Franco-German FCAS program right now, even as a junior partner, even without access to few critical technologies but with local production lines (initially through knock-down kit assembly). This investment could greatly accelerate FCAS development and benefit India sooner.

De-emphasize the Tejas/AMCA program. Focus on increasing the number of SU-30s as much as possible and improving it's capabilities until 2030 to bridge the capability gap. Acquire SU-57 & SU-75 in significant numbers throughout the 2030s. Subsequently, transition towards the FCAS program in the 2040s. Invest in indigenous drone capabilities, similar to Turkey, and acquire them in large numbers for low-level operations and peace time Jobs.

This approach would significantly enhance Indian capabilities beyond what is currently planned till 2040-50.

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

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45 Chinese soldiers died in Galwan, reports Russian news agency TASS

China has not revealed its casualties in the Galwan Valley clash but a Russian news agency, TASS has reported that 45 Chinese soldiers died in the free-style fight.

www.indiatoday.in

you don't know Pakistani politicsand Indian source what a joke you have

 

[Joe Shearer]

you don't know Pakistani politicsand Indian source what a joke you have

"When Greek meets Greek, then is the tug of war."
Nathaniel Lee