JF-17 PFX program

[Ak01]

Can't agree more, Azm project as a solo thing was really out of our league, But Arabs bringing in money and Turkey giving technological help will make all the difference and give us technologies and training and trained manpower we need to increase number of such projects.

well, riddle me this:

why would the arabs pay the turks via us to bring pfx to light when they can directly invest into kaan and actually get something worth their money...lol

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

You will see yourself. As for the money part. Please explain to me where we got the money to order 8 submarines, 4 Type 54 A Frigates, 4 Babur Class Corvettes, 4 Tabuk Class OPV, producing missile boats, JF-17 production, J-10 C induction, Akinci, Wing Long II, Shahpar II, Sea Sultan planes around 9 AWACS out of which 6 came in last couple of years, VT 4 Tanks, wheeled APC, new MRAP from Thailand, HQ 9 for both Army and Air Force, HQ 16, HQ 7, CH-4 Drones should I continue with other weapon systems ? When you find an answer to these than come and question where we would get the money to have 150 J-35. 150 won't be ordered in first go. It would be like 40 will be first order when that is completed may 40 more ordered or only 20 more than 20 more than 20. Like that our final J-35 will reach 100 minimum go way beyond 100.

That's shows clearly you're immature person and have no ability to analyze the situation critically and deeply, Most of these project's deals signed well before when $$$ wasn't a issue such as AWAC/JF-17 production and 8 subs from China and Type 54 A/ 4 Babar class/Tabuk OPV etc etc projects deals signed when Pakistan financial situation/position relatively better then current critical situation of Pakistan economy (pre-Imran Khan era) recently we have relatively fewer major deal signed like HQ-9/J-10c Sea-Sultan, rest of UAV/UCAVs purchase aren't major purchase in my point of view and army's LY-80/HQ-16 we bought it few years back and HQ-7 is old system, PAF have it since 90s, may be we upgrade it with Chinese help recently

If money aren't problem from Pakistan then tell me why we are taking loans after loans from IMF/World Bank, If $$$ is not a problem for Pakistan why we beg to KSA/UAE for aids to pay IMF/World Bank loans recently?

And Why do you think whole PAF's budget is for purchasing BIG TICKET ITEMS? PAF has lots other expenses like pension/Research and development/ maintenance/logistic/ upgrading it facilities/Airbases and so on

And last please explain with logic why we need 100+ STEALTH JETS? Maintenance/logistics of a STEELTH JETS are extremely expensive compare to 4th and 4.5th jets, Even USAF/Ru-AF/PLAAF can't sustain high- high combos (Stealth jet with same capabilities) and always relied on high-low combos ( one is front-line jet and other is much cheaper to produce/operate/ maintain and work as work-horse) like F-22/F-35, F-15/F-16, Su-57/Su-75, Su-27/MIG-29, J-20/J-35, J-11/J-10, So PAF not in the position to have such huge numbers of J-35 over time, J-35 would be tip of the spear for PAF like F-22/Su-57/J-20 and tip of the spear (J-35) always will have relatively fewer in numbers then WORK-HORSE (J-10C) for PAF, so I have strongly deny this ridiculous/stupid theory that PAF will go for J-35 beyond 100+

 

[Michael]

@Michael your opinion?

I have already expressed my views in our previous discussion. You can check the previous discussion.
@Oscar's statement in #1446 summarizes the previous discussion very well.

Again!

I don't think it will be a qualifying program. ------ Qualifying = achieving a certain amount of production within a certain timeframe and according to the original planning targets. ------ In fact, it's highly likely that it will be killed at the dream stage.

Who will complete the design of the PFX?

Pakistan obviously doesn't have the capacity.
Turkey? According to known information, Turkey does not currently have fighter design capability. If someone tries to bring out Hurjet and KAAN to prove that Turkey has such capability, then please take a closer look at their background first.
If Pakistan and Turkey are willing to take the PFX program as an attempted program to design a fighter jet, it will take a long time and at a huge cost. It is not a cost that Pakistan and Turkey can afford.

China?
It is now widely believed that the JF-17 B3 could be AVIC's last mission in the JF-17 program.
AVIC is nearing completion of its total mission for the JF-17 cooperative program with PAC. There is a high probability that AVIC will terminate the JF-17 program after the original contract is completed. Thereafter, AVIC's status in the JF-17 program will change from a shareholder relationship to a supplier relationship.
The issue of intellectual property rights owned by AVIC in the JF-17 program. If PAC acquires it in full, the follow-on program for the JF-17 will be at the discretion of PAC. If PAC does not acquire, the JF-17 program will be terminated altogether. As for the terms of the acquisition, AVIC does not have much interest in the JF-17 follow-on program and may transfer it to PAC on particularly favorable terms.

After that, if PAF continues to invite CAC to design the PFX, it will need to pay the complete design fee separately.

China currently has a new production line for the J-10CE in Guizhou. In the near future, China is fully capable of making the J-10CE foreign trade price similar to the JF-17 B3, and they could even make a foreign trade version of the J-10CE that is less expensive than the JF-17 B3.

 

[Goku-Kun]

Agreed, we have alot of work to do in even basic aircraft design, let alone the stuff we discuss here on the forum.

Sad AZM noises:View attachment 94934

this mentioned 160hp engine is indigenous or imported?

 

[Cesur]

Can't agree more, Azm project as a solo thing was really out of our league, But Arabs bringing in money and Turkey giving technological help will make all the difference and give us technologies and training and trained manpower we need to increase number of such projects.

I don't trust Turks man. If you have ever dealt with them you'll know what type of people they are.

They have conquered Libya, Syria, Somalia, Azerbaijan, and some other Central Asian states politically and those interests allign with the West too which are anti Iran, anti China and anti Russia.

With the political and technological support from NATO and EU and financial support from Qatar, they are getting things done

Their own economy is not good but their corporations are super rich to get the job done. They know the Arabs can't fight and they know the Khaleejees like to spend money on defence so they have made inroads from Egypt to UAE too in the name of defence cooperation.

If you actually think about it they have started to threaten our own interests too. Just as we are trying to develop political, economic and military ties with Bangladesh, they have started to compete with us there. The same in Afghanistan because they have influence in Central Asia but thank god not with a lot of success as our stake in Afghanistan is historic

They are shrewed businessmen. Don't under estimate them. If they want us to be part of KAAN its not because they think we have superior technological know how, its because of the fact that we have cheap labour costs with an established eco system which only benefit their industry

 

[SiliconBit (silicon0000)]

That is exactly why PFX is not our solo project, that is the lesson we learnt, we have limited resources which need to be increased therefore technological, and training will come from Turkey and Arabs will finance it.

Are you sure the Arab card hasn't expired? I don't think the Arabs will now finance any major Pakistani defense procurement, especially those they are not going to acquire themselves.

Investment in KAAN can be considered to some extent, but investment in JF-17/PFX seems far-fetched.

 

[Yasser76]

I don't trust Turks man. If you have ever dealt with them you'll know what type of people they are.

They have conquered Libya, Syria, Somalia, Azerbaijan, and some other Central Asian states politically and those interests allign with the West too which are anti Iran, anti China and anti Russia.

With the political and technological support from NATO and EU and financial support from Qatar, they are getting things done

Their own economy is not good but their corporations are super rich to get the job done. They know the Arabs can't fight and they know the Khaleejees like to spend money on defence so they have made inroads from Egypt to UAE too in the name of defence cooperation.

If you actually think about it they have started to threaten our own interests too. Just as we are trying to develop political, economic and military ties with Bangladesh, they have started to compete with us there. The same in Afghanistan because they have influence in Central Asia but thank god not with a lot of success as our stake in Afghanistan is historic

They are shrewed businessmen. Don't under estimate them. If they want us to be part of KAAN its not because they think we have superior technological know how, its because of the fact that we have cheap labour costs with an established eco system which only benefit their industry

Funny thing, in business dealings I have always found Turks more trustworthy and honourable then Pakistanis

 

[Zarvan]

Are you sure the Arab card hasn't expired? I don't think the Arabs will now finance any major Pakistani defense procurement, especially those they are not going to acquire themselves.

Investment in KAAN can be considered to some extent, but investment in JF-17/PFX seems far-fetched.

No yes, we have other issues with Arabs but not they have enough money to get KAAN and finance PFX project plus even invest in other projects. There is a reason after every few months a meeting of Pakistan, Saudia Arabia and Turkish working group on defense takes place. There is lot of things being discussed and being worked together. I hope more Arab countries join this working group.

 

[Zarvan]

I don't trust Turks man. If you have ever dealt with them you'll know what type of people they are.

They have conquered Libya, Syria, Somalia, Azerbaijan, and some other Central Asian states politically and those interests allign with the West too which are anti Iran, anti China and anti Russia.

With the political and technological support from NATO and EU and financial support from Qatar, they are getting things done

Their own economy is not good but their corporations are super rich to get the job done. They know the Arabs can't fight and they know the Khaleejees like to spend money on defence so they have made inroads from Egypt to UAE too in the name of defence cooperation.

If you actually think about it they have started to threaten our own interests too. Just as we are trying to develop political, economic and military ties with Bangladesh, they have started to compete with us there. The same in Afghanistan because they have influence in Central Asia but thank god not with a lot of success as our stake in Afghanistan is historic

They are shrewed businessmen. Don't under estimate them. If they want us to be part of KAAN its not because they think we have superior technological know how, its because of the fact that we have cheap labour costs with an established eco system which only benefit their industry

Turks have always stood by us and have always helped us. Our track record with them is similar to that of China, only difference was until a decade or two ago they lacked technology of defense things. In past two decades they have come a long way.

 

[Ak01]

this mentioned 160hp engine is indigenous or imported?

import

 

[Cesur]

Turks have always stood by us and have always helped us. Our track record with them is similar to that of China, only difference was until a decade or two ago they lacked technology of defense things. In past two decades they have come a long way.

Our interests align more with China than with Turkey for many reasons:

1. We are neighbours and Turkey is not. Turkey fulfills policy of the West and of its own which is not in our interest.

2. China is a superpower. Turkey's economy is worse than Pakistan right now and they have saturated to the point that they now have no option but to expand and use force to survive.

3. China has no political and military ambition in the Middle East and greater Muslim world otherwise they would have played a role with all the wars and alliances going on in the region. For 70 years they have been dependable to support our foreign policy interests and this is crucial because if we have any ambition to play a significant role in the Islamic world, we need a partner who doesn't clash with our interests. Turkey will clash with us. If not now, for sure in the future. All China wants is economic hegemony which is fine because no country including the U.S can compete with them.

Back to topic. I guarantee you they will not give us full ToT for KAAN. It will not happen. They are not dumb people.

Funny thing, in business dealings I have always found Turks more trustworthy and honourable then Pakistanis

I have lived and dealt with them long enough. We Pakistanis should not underestimate ourselves. We tend to criticize ourselves more than we should. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Zarvan]

Are the Arabs aware they're financing it? Last i heard they're sick of bankrolling Pakistan...

The Turks would be better off running than trying to work with us.

lets try to stay realistic.

Yes they are aware that is around a dozen meeting of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Turkey defense joint group have taken place in past few years and these are not small group but all three countries have Lt General rank officers lead their teams. With other Major Generals and Birgadiers being part of it. So yes they are very well aware and more countries from Arab world may also join it.

 

[Oscar]

I have lived and dealt with them long enough. We Pakistanis should not underestimate ourselves. We tend to criticize ourselves more than we should. I'll leave it at that.

unfortunately - Pakistani condition is to criticize but not act or do the bare minimum and boast as if it’s the next best thing to sliced bread - that part is inherited from the common genetics but the criticism and not acting comes from a victim mentality boosted by a false self delusional interpretation of Islamic teachings.

On the topic - there is no full ToT on Kaan. Pakistan has oversold itself in terms of what it can offer to Turkey besides relatively “cheaper” software labor which gives some advantages in cost reduction but whether it allows TAI to recoup investment in training and infrastructure to be able to get Pakistani technical resources BEING OFFERED TO THEM to the same level is an unknown.

Your assertion that Pakistanis underestimate themselves is not wrong - a LOT of smart and resourceful workforce is making inroads everywhere, finding investment, creating excellent product - but it is also not going to be working for PAF. A good developer in Pakistan undertaking various tasks on UpWork and other part time employment may end up making above $100000 a year - some I know are doing $200k
But, then they have no incentive to waste their time under often less qualified folks in military development organizations.

Most of what is coming out of universities is worse than ChatGPT output unless they have already dropped out to start their own hustles.

So in relation to contributions to KAAN - Pakistan while having much to offer can actually struggle to contribute its best or even above average at scale because what they need to offer to match what this now growing freelance/software house culture is giving is difficult to match at scale while still offering the freedom to earn even more on the side.

NASTP does have positive of an aspect I highlighted as negative from an “accomplishment so far” perspective - by offering land to coworking spaces and software houses it may end up creating a positive incubator culture - here then they can perhaps create a secure enough environment that is acceptable for military R&D needs but also affords the youth resources the ability to take on other projects to expand their revenue. @Quwa @JamD
That off course is dependent on the right people recognizing that potential.

If you’re afraid of PTI and other social ills - fine. But don’t throttle development bandwidth. Give people fast access to the web for development needs in a secure environment which you can monitor - let the TikTokers face the firewall.

This will allow the private sector to attract more talent to perhaps not try efforts abroad or at the least create institutional knowledge that you can retain and use to train more and more capable resources.

It is very possible that Pakistanis also transition to a very remote work culture or coworking culture - letting small businesses and entrepreneurs from all backgrounds flourish . Now whether the current DHA plot trader variety recognizes this gold mine is beyond the scope of this thread but if you can scale software/design resources and slowly build manufacturing - you become a valuable resource for TAI or Baykar and even other players.

 

[SiliconBit (silicon0000)]

No yes, we have other issues with Arabs but not they have enough money to get KAAN and finance PFX project plus even invest in other projects. There is a reason after every few months a meeting of Pakistan, Saudia Arabia and Turkish working group on defense takes place. There is lot of things being discussed and being worked together. I hope more Arab countries join this working group.

As i already said earlier regarding KAAN but Are you sure about PFX? PFX has less chances to be purchased by Arabs (Near to Zero) than go in Iranian Hands and has potential to be used against Arabs. Why should they fund something like that?

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

No yes, we have other issues with Arabs but not they have enough money to get KAAN and finance PFX project plus even invest in other projects. There is a reason after every few months a meeting of Pakistan, Saudia Arabia and Turkish working group on defense takes place. There is lot of things being discussed and being worked together. I hope more Arab countries join this working group.

what is KSA gain through investing in PFX project?